Tips for a Beginner

[ledahmck]

Hi everyone.

This is my first time making cider ever. I picked apples from a backyard tree and juiced them to make one gallon of cider.

I washed the apples but did not rinse the apples after cutting them to put into the juicer. Some of them were wormy and most were bruised. I think I forgot to sanitize one of the pots I used when straining.

I did not pasteurize the cider. I added one cup of honey to the cider and used Lavalin EC-1118 for my yeast. Fermentation has been going for about 4 days now, pretty active. I had to change my airlock to a blow off tube because it was getting so much crud in it. Then I changed the blow off tube once as well because it was getting pretty cruddy. It is still bubbling once per second but no crud is coming up anymore. To begin with there was foam at the top of the carboy that wasn't completely strained from the juicer. I guess this turned into krausen? Now there is a thin layer of white foam forming underneath the krausen/foam.

I am thinking of making another one gallon batch the exact same way, except this time pasteurizing it to compare flavours (that is if my first batch doesn't get infected).

So I have a few questions for you experts out there. I am sorry if there is repeat from other threads. I am just trying to pull all my internet research together. If you don't want to answer all please feel free to answer even one question! I understand that experience is probably the best teacher so I don't expect answers to everything, just throwing it out there. I'll be experimenting either way. Thank you in advance!

1. How likely is it that my cider will become infected because of poor sanitation/it is unpasteurized?
2. When will I be able to tell if it is infected? (is the white foam a good or bad sign?)
3. Where do you stand on the debate between pasteurized/unpasteurized? I likely will never make cider from store bought juice because my mentality is if I am going to make my own cider it might as well be from scratch. I probably won't ever be picking apples near farmyard animals. Is taste really affected by pasteurizing the cider? How risky is it to go the unpasteurized route? Do Cambden tablets affect flavour or add chemicals? It seems some purists think they are unnecessary.
4. I am interested in fermenting the entirely natural way without adding yeasts. Any suggestions/recipes/tips on this?
5. Do you have suggestions on the best yeasts to use for hard cider?
6. Can you share any recipes you recommend, esp. creative ones with spices/different flavours?
7. Do you recommend any books out there for making cider?

 

[wfowlks]

1. How likely is it that my cider will become infected because of poor sanitation/it is unpasteurized?

Very unlikely, unless you had just been culturing bacteria in the pot, stainless steel is a hard surface, and bacteria doesn't survive well on it. As for being unpasteurized, that will affect the clarity more so than the infection. It also means that there is a slight chance natural yeast from the apple could get in there, so you may have some unique characteristics. And also pasteurizing would ensure consistency from batch to batch as you would be controlling the yeast 100%.

2. When will I be able to tell if it is infected? (is the white foam a good or bad sign?)

The white foam is just krausen, and its a good thing! It means the yeast is active and well. Here is some pictures of infections just so you can become familiar: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/post-your-infection-71400/

3. Where do you stand on the debate between pasteurized/unpasteurized? I likely will never make cider from store bought juice because my mentality is if I am going to make my own cider it might as well be from scratch. I probably won't ever be picking apples near farmyard animals. Is taste really affected by pasteurizing the cider? How risky is it to go the unpasteurized route? Do Cambden tablets affect flavour or add chemicals? It seems some purists think they are unnecessary.

This is a whole bunch of questions all in one, but when I made cider I bought it from a orchard that sold unpasteurized cider. There really isn't too much of a taste difference in the pasteurized/unpasteurizedbut there is a clarity difference once its done.

I ended up bottle pasteurizing my cider because I wanted to keep some of the sweetness, you can find information on that in the forums here.

4. I am interested in fermenting the entirely natural way without adding yeasts. Any suggestions/recipes/tips on this?

This could ruin a batch as you wouldnt have any control over the yeast/bacteria. But most of the yeast and bacteria live on the peel. One way that you could do it is to soak some peels in cider, let them propigate, and then taste and smell each one to make sure its not bad, then add that sample you want to the main batch

5. Do you have suggestions on the best yeasts to use for hard cider?

Depends on the characteristics you want and what temparatures that will be present during fermentation. But here is a good starter for picking what you want: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/index84.html#post5710045

6. Can you share any recipes you recommend, esp. creative ones with spices/different flavours?

When I make cider, I like molasses and honey, as well as brown sugar. I do 5 gallon batch:

1 gallon of cider brought to 120 degrees, add 1 lb of Honey and 1lb of light brown sugar and 1 cup molasses. Stir until dissolved

Put 4 gallons of cider into fermentor, add the sugar cider mixture and check the temperature, wait to pitch till the cider is 75 degrees or below.

7. Do you recommend any books out there for making cider?

Read the forums... books are big and expensive.
or you can do google searches for specific topics google search with the term modifiers:
site:homebrewtalk.com my search here

 

[wfowlks]

Oh yeah, I would also put the fermentor in a dark place or put a towel around it. Light does not go well with cider.

 

[bernardsmith]

Let me offer you a few opinions rather than answers. I believe that apple juice sold to the public is required to be pasteurized by the FDA because of the possibility that orchards will use apples that have dropped from trees and which have then been contaminated by salmonella and e-coli from animal feces. Heat treating juice IMO spoils the taste and can make the juice cloudy from setting pectins. Better is UV pasteurization. If you pick your own apples then you know whether they are likely to have been picked from the ground and what birds or racoons, rabbits, deer, ground hogs or sheep or chickens or cows have likely pooped or peed on them..
Unless you are counting on wild yeast to ferment your cider you might consider adding K-meta to the juice. Solves all problems of bird poop or other bacterial or fungal
contamination.
How LIKELY is your must contaminated? I would say very unlikely - as long as you sanitize anything that touches the must. _Sanitization is NOT sterilization. You are not performing brain or heart surgery. You simply want to remove , and inhibit any significant colony of bacteria or fungi. A few microbes here and there will be dominated by the millions of yeast cells, the amount of alcohol those yeast will produce and the pH the yeast will drop the cider to.
If you want to ferment using the yeast on the apple skins - be my guest - you may need to cultivate those to obtain a large enough colony but if you are in the market to buy cider yeast I would suggest something like 71B or QA 23 or even a beer yeast like Nottingham (I have yet to try Safale 05 or 04).
Good cider books include The Everything Hard Cider Book by Drew Beechum which is written for the beginner and Claude Jolicoeur's The New Cider Maker's Handbook which can easily be understood by a novice but contains information that is useful for an expert.

Last point, cider ain't beer and there is no good reason why you should not ferment your cider in the first few days , anyway , in a wide mouthed bottling type bucket covered with a towel. That way you are totally disinterested in the height of what you refer to as "krausen" AND you are very free to take a sanitized spoon or rod and stir the must several times a day to expel CO2, incorporate air, and make sure any fruit that is brought to the surface is frequently soaked and brought back down into the must. Using a bucket also enables you to take gravity readings with a sanitized hydrometer and cylinder so that you know when it is time to rack the cider from the open bucket into a closed carboy (when the gravity gets close to 1.005) AND the open bucket means that you might be comfortable starting with a must of more than 1 gallon knowing that you will be leaving behind some lees and sediment and yet need to fill the gallon carboy right up into the neck of the mouth ton reduce headroom to close to zero AND using a bucket enables you to taste - like any good cook - to taste your cider all through the active fermentation so that you will know by taste if it is spoiling or it is right on target for the kinds of flavors and aromas you want...
My opinions - but others with many more years of experience may disagree.

 

[hunter_le five]

Oh yeah, I would also put the fermentor in a dark place or put a towel around it. Light does not go well with cider.

Why would light affect cider?

Light is well known to be bad for beer because of the effect on hop oils (causes skunking), but I have never heard or experienced anything that would lead me to believe that light has any sort of detrimental effect on cider.

 

[ledahmck]

Oh yeah, I would also put the fermentor in a dark place or put a towel around it. Light does not go well with cider.

Thank you I will do that straight away!

 

[ledahmck]

Thanks a lot, very helpful. I must say I am impressed with this group, great way to share knowledge. Also, relieved that my cider might be ok after all!

 

[bernardsmith]

I frequently keep my cider fermenting on my kitchen table and have never experienced a problem with off flavors or color loss due to light. The only time I transfer my cider to my basement is if I add hops to the cider (your point, hunter la5, ) or if I make apple ale (again with hops ). But if someone can explain the science that would explain why cider would benefit from darkness I have no problem changing my practice..

 

[wfowlks]

Why would light affect cider?

Light is well known to be bad for beer because of the effect on hop oils (causes skunking), but I have never heard or experienced anything that would lead me to believe that light has any sort of detrimental effect on cider.

When I first started out, I had the fermentor inside, it was near a window. I don't know if it was the light or not but since I was using unpasteurized cider, It got really light in color, and ended up having a hazy color. The guy at the LHBS asked me if it was in the light and he said that he had seen that before when it was in light. So after that I had kept it in the closet, and the cider cleared well and didnt have a wierd hazy look.

 

[ledahmck]

Is there a difference between juicing and pressing apples for cider?

 

[bernardsmith]

Thanks a lot, very helpful. I must say I am impressed with this group, great way to share knowledge. Also, relieved that my cider might be ok after all!

How many days has it been fermenting? What is the current gravity? If the gravity is significantly above 1.010 taste it. (use a wine thief or a baster) If it is spoiled the taste will tell you. I don't gamble but I would bet you that your cider is fine. You need to work pretty hard to spoil fruit wines. Even then they are likely to become vinegars and not something that will make you ill - the acidity , the alcohol content, the millions of yeast cells busily working to produce CO2 all work to create an environment that favors the yeast you have inoculated the cider with rather than chance organisms that are floating about...

 

[bernardsmith]

When I first started out, I had the fermentor inside, it was near a window. I don't know if it was the light or not but since I was using unpasteurized cider, It got really light in color, and ended up having a hazy color. The guy at the LHBS asked me if it was in the light and he said that he had seen that before when it was in light. So after that I had kept it in the closet, and the cider cleared well and didnt have a wierd hazy look.

I dunno, I would think that the heat from the window might set the pectins in the juice. Pectins result in haze but the solution is a) never to heat the juice (aha! so no pasteurization except for UV light- which then flies in the face of your LHBS ) and b) to add pectic enzyme about 12 hours before pitching the yeast. This reduces the likelihood of pectic haze AND the enzymes help break down the fruit cells and so result in more juice being expressed.

 

[ledahmck]

How many days has it been fermenting? What is the current gravity? If the gravity is significantly above 1.010 taste it. (use a wine thief or a baster) If it is spoiled the taste will tell you. I don't gamble but I would bet you that your cider is fine. You need to work pretty hard to spoil fruit wines. Even then they are likely to become vinegars and not something that will make you ill - the acidity , the alcohol content, the millions of yeast cells busily working to produce CO2 all work to create an environment that favors the yeast you have inoculated the cider with rather than chance organisms that are floating about...

It has been fermenting for four days. I haven't checked the gravity because I just got a hydrometer yesterday, and I'm still trying to get over my initial fear of entering the carboy!

 

[wfowlks]

Refractometer! Best 60$ I spent on Brewing equipment. Only requires a drop, I dont use the hydrometer any more.

But for the window, I think it probably was the pectin, it was winter when I did it so I dont expect the window to give that much heat. I am not 100% sure of the reason for the haze, it was like an opaqueness, but since I went to putting it in the dark, it didnt have a problem.

 

[bernardsmith]

Refractometer! Best 60$ I spent on Brewing equipment. Only requires a drop, I dont use the hydrometer any more.

But for the window, I think it probably was the pectin, it was winter when I did it so I dont expect the window to give that much heat. I am not 100% sure of the reason for the haze, it was like an opaqueness, but since I went to putting it in the dark, it didnt have a problem.

Wine makers generally use refractometers to measure the sugar content of the fruit. I have never used one before but are they designed to enable you to measure the sugar content after yeast has been added to the juiced fruit and so you have some water, some alcohol and some sugar?

http://www.misco.com/refractometer-...l-sugar-content-and-alcohol-in-finished-wines

 

[Yooper]

Why would light affect cider?

Light is well known to be bad for beer because of the effect on hop oils (causes skunking), but I have never heard or experienced anything that would lead me to believe that light has any sort of detrimental effect on cider.

It's well accepted that wines, meads and ciders can get "light struck", but not skunky.

It's noticeable in flavor, as well in appearance, and is one reason that red wines especially are sold in dark bottles to avoid being light struck. It's not a desirable flavor. It can also cause some color changes, generally "bleaching" color, but in ciders it can cause some darkening.

It's best practice to keep wine, meads and cider away from bright light as much as possible.

 

[hunter_le five]

It's well accepted that wines, meads and ciders can get "light struck", but not skunky.

It's noticeable in flavor, as well in appearance, and is one reason that red wines especially are sold in dark bottles to avoid being light struck. It's not a desirable flavor. It can also cause some color changes, generally "bleaching" color, but in ciders it can cause some darkening.

It's best practice to keep wine, meads and cider away from bright light as much as possible.

Good to know, thanks for enlightening me.

 

[wfowlks]

Wine makers generally use refractometers to measure the sugar content of the fruit. I have never used one before but are they designed to enable you to measure the sugar content after yeast has been added to the juiced fruit and so you have some water, some alcohol and some sugar?

http://www.misco.com/refractometer-...l-sugar-content-and-alcohol-in-finished-wines

Yes, as long as you have the OG or BRIX measurement, there are equations or forms online or Beersmith that has a tool to convert the reading in the Refractometer after fermentation to a gravity reading.

But yes, you are still measuring the sugar or lack of sugar to calculate your % alcohol. As the Sugar -> Alcohol relationship is well documented

 

[victoriaEls]

When is it time to rack it. How many times should it be racked? How long should the cider sit?

 

[bernardsmith]

It has been fermenting for four days. I haven't checked the gravity because I just got a hydrometer yesterday, and I'm still trying to get over my initial fear of entering the carboy!

If you use K-meta to sanitize your equipment there really should be nothing to be fearful about using a wine thief or a baster to draw a sample of your cider into a plastic or glass cylinder and measure its density (gravity) with a glass hydrometer. Others here - coming from brewing backgrounds may disagree - but IMO there is also no harm whatsoever in returning this sample back to your fermenter - although if you are starting with a larger batch in a bucket than you will rack into your carboy then there is also good sense in pouring some of this sample into a glass and tasting it. Knowing what your cider, mead, wines taste like at different stages in the fermentation and aging process is IMO very foundational and important and can help you spot early if something unexpected is happening.

 

[wfowlks]

I only rack to secondary. No tertiary. After about two-4 weeks you can rack. Unless you want a sweeter cider