This is my dream...

[Dude]

Wow....this thread is awesome.... I love this discussion!

I understand the marketing aspect of selling BMC....but I'd like to be 100% craft beer. Educate people. Make them realize that a crafted ale (or lager) is better than the BMC crap. I want the dining experience to be memorable. I want people to leave and say, WOW that beer rocked! I never knew beer could taste like that!

 

[the_bird]

There are other, more-subtle things you'd have to think about. Would you have a kids menu, for example? We've gone to lunch at the Northampton Brew Company, and it's basically been a kids-zone, with a bunch of relaxed parents enjoying a decent meal and a nice pint. But, is that what you want, or would that turn off other potential clients?

What you have to be comfortable with, though, is that the success or failure of the brewpub will ultimately have very little to do with how great (or medicore) the beer is, at least in my opinion. I think it's a given that you'll have a good, very drinkable product. People go to a particular brewpub because of where it's located, because of the food, because of the atmosphere, because of how the staff treats them - I think much more so than because your IPA is a little bit better than the one down the street. Very few people are so tuned into the absolute quality of the beer that they'll go there JUST because the beer is great. Fact is, some of the brewpubs in the area that do extremely well serve very good beer - but ultimately unexceptional, unmemorable beer - yet seem to thrive in some very competitive markets.

That's what I would worry the most about running a brewpub; is the beer REALLY going to be the focus?

 

[cweston]

Really? That's not my experience at all. Unless by 'real men', you mean guys that have one baseball cap for work and a nice one when they're going out.

Well yeah, sort of. Dude specifically used the phrase "blue collar atmosphere." When blue-collar types think beer, I don't think they're mainly thinking smoked porter, or vanilla bourbon oak-aged imperial stout, or even IPA. It'd be a delicate balance.

It partly depends on location. The original Redhook brewery and pub in Seattle, for example, had a fairly blue-collar feel to it, partly because it was not in a gentrified neighborhood.

 

[Dude]

Well yeah, sort of. Dude specifically used the phrase "blue collar atmosphere." When blue-collar types think beer, I don't think they're mainly thinking smoked porter, or vanilla bourbon oak-aged imperial stout, or even IPA. It'd be a delicate balance.

Definitely, and that is where you'd have to be careful on what you serve.

I'd imagine we'd have 5 regular beers and a sixth seasonal on the taps. I'd always have a 1) blonde or a cream ale (for the hard core BMC drinkers), 2) a brown ale or an ESB, 3) stout or porter, 4) wheat, 5) hoppy APA or an IPA.

 

[Dude]

There are other, more-subtle things you'd have to think about. Would you have a kids menu, for example? We've gone to lunch at the Northampton Brew Company, and it's basically been a kids-zone, with a bunch of relaxed parents enjoying a decent meal and a nice pint. But, is that what you want, or would that turn off other potential clients?

What you have to be comfortable with, though, is that the success or failure of the brewpub will ultimately have very little to do with how great (or medicore) the beer is, at least in my opinion. I think it's a given that you'll have a good, very drinkable product. People go to a particular brewpub because of where it's located, because of the food, because of the atmosphere, because of how the staff treats them - I think much more so than because your IPA is a little bit better than the one down the street. Very few people are so tuned into the absolute quality of the beer that they'll go there JUST because the beer is great. Fact is, some of the brewpubs in the area that do extremely well serve very good beer - but ultimately unexceptional, unmemorable beer - yet seem to thrive in some very competitive markets.

That's what I would worry the most about running a brewpub; is the beer REALLY going to be the focus?

No...you are right. Food comes first. But I'd spend a good portion of my focus on the beer.

 

[rdwj]

Dude specifically used the phrase "blue collar atmosphere." When blue-collar types think beer, I don't think they're mainly thinking smoked porter, or vanilla bourbon oak-aged imperial stout, or even IPA. It'd be a delicate balance.

Ya, I think you're right there. But I. thinking that a blue-collar armosphere is different than a blue-collar clientele. It's cool to make it a comfortable, casual place, but I don't see many guys hanging out there after working in a mill all day or drawing a lunch crowd of construction guys.

 

[Dude]

Ya, I think you're right there. But I. thinking that a blue-collar armosphere is different than a blue-collar clientele. It's cool to make it a comfortable, casual place, but I don't see many guys hanging out there after working in a mill all day or drawing a lunch crowd of construction guys.

I totally disagree. I'd cater specifically to that group.

 

[RoaringBrewer]

Ya, I think you're right there. But I. thinking that a blue-collar armosphere is different than a blue-collar clientele. It's cool to make it a comfortable, casual place, but I don't see many guys hanging out there after working in a mill all day or drawing a lunch crowd of construction guys.

The lunch crowd is an important one. This is where I think generating the correct atmosphere is critical. As noted above, if you are aiming to draw the "construction guys" lunch crowd, I can't imagine the place would be very classy (no offense contractors, etc.) as building or road crews generally will have paint spattered jeans, tank tops in summer, and tool belts. Heck, I'd say most of them probably eat a packed lunch on the bed of a truck because they want to get done and get home...

I know you disagree, but I can't picture it...

On the other hand, I believe to prosper it's going to have to be somewhat upscale/classy. You can still be upscale and cater to a "blue collar" crowd, it's just a fineline. Without being a little up-scale though, you won't draw the people who normally go out for lunch. Businessmen/women looking to get out of the office/cublicle/etc. because they know they'll be stuck working late and/or are just bored out of their skulls. Or taking clientele out of lunch...

Note that the beer will not be the focus at ANY (well 90%+ of) lunch, so it's going to have to be food and atmosphere. I am not a construction worker, but I can't imagine their supervisor lets them drink beers before handling the nail guns. Maybe I'm wrong...

On the kids menu note, I personally think its a must. You exclude too many possible customers if you make them find a babysitter before coming in or make their children eat ceasar salads, filet mignon, or bangers and mash... Almost all brewpubs I've been to have SOME kids menu and it has never seemed like 'kid-zone' to me at all. There are some kids there around 5-8, but before or after that, pretty much none. Further, the kids of the people who frequent brewpubs usually seem pretty well mannered to me. There are always exceptions, but this is just my observation.

 

[CBBaron]

I totally disagree. I'd cater specifically to that group.

The problem I see is that most of this crowd tend to drink pretty heavily when they drink and are price sensitive. That is a big reason that many people stick with BMC. If you can make a good product that is price competitive with BMC at a blue collar bar then you main gain a market through word of mouth.
Cleveland is a very blue collar city but the customers at the local brewpubs appear to be predominately white collar.
However a good brew pub with that atmosphere is likely to attract a good customer base even if many are office workers.
Craig

 

[RoaringBrewer]

In my opinion, even "blue-collar folk" have a white-collar side to them every now and then and you will attract them to your brewpub if the atmosphere, pricing, etc. is spot-on.

For example, although I can't picture you drawing a large crowd of construction workers for lunch (I can see a large crowd of white collar business-people), even some of these people like to dress up a little (jeans and a button-down oxford is dressed up in this case) and go out on a Friday evening, Saturday lunch, or Saturday evening. All you have to do is make it a casual, yet upscale atmosphere and I think you will win over the best of both worlds. In my opinion, if the blue collar dude isn't willing to throw on jeans and a nice oxford, sweater, or even long-sleeve (henley/thermal/whatever the hell you want to call it) or short sleeve classy, solid colored shirt and swing by for a pint and some good food, they probably aren't the folk you want visiting anyway? Ripped jeans, a mullet, and a 1984 styx t-shirt isn't going to look to well for the people who are willing to take that step. If that's the crowd you want, than expect more bar fights and ruckus than its worth.

And they still won't want to pay a fair price for your micro...

 

[RoaringBrewer]

Wow, I typed a lot in this thread today and cannot continue or my white-collar job may be down the tube, haha.

Anyway, to summarize I say if its not broke, don't fix it... I've been to and immensely enjoyed many brewpubs. The ones I enjoy the most (and maybe its just a product of my environment) have a higher-class feel/atmosphere, but still casual enough (and affordable enough) for the blue-collar person on the weekend. I've gone there for work lunches in a suit and tie and not even had a beer. Then again I've gone on the weekends in jeans and a normal casual shirt and enjoyed my fair share of pints. Noone looked at me funny either time; I sat among many-a rauckus college students and/or blue collar folk, as well as children and even the elderly and everyone seemed to have a great time. I think you need to aim there even if it seems like "following the leader" as far as their brewpub 'methodology' goes.

I can almost guarentee one thing. Very few people (some of us might!) want to drink some unknown beers at a hole-in-the-wall type place [i.e. crappy atmosphere]. You need a good atmosphere for all ages [this is the least limiting factor though] and [more importantly] lifestyles.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Some day, I'm going to open a brew pub and serve fine brews with fantastic German food and BBQ. I've got backers too.

This thread got me thinking again...and we all know how dangerous that can be...

I never before considered opening any sort of restaurant, pub, diner, bar, etc until I started brewing. However, "I've got backers," too. Many of my friends ask me, "Wow, are you going to go into business with your brewing?" More than several seem to think it's possible and would be willing to invest (some even have quite a nest egg...). While I know it's bad practice to go into business with your friends' money, it does spark a bit of interest in pursuing a dream like Dude's...

Great discussion...keep it up!

Oh, and I'd avoid the $48,000 monster (it's so beautiful...) and try to find something along the lines of Monster Mash's pool filter rig instead.

EDIT:
Slightly :
Something I think I'd personally have more success with is a homebrew supply shop. I'd need a good location (modern suburbia, perhaps) - the small town I'm currently in just wouldn't sustain a good HBS (as evidenced by my LHBS). I think it'd be great to have a dedicated HBS with a decent selection, fast special order capability, and a knowledgeable staff. Given my affinity for gadgets, I think I could probably do well with custom built brew equipment as well. A once a month (or week) in-store brew day for curious on-lookers and serious brewers alike would be awesome. Free samples on tap would ceraintly be in order. Then again...a brew pub/HBS anyone?

 

[rdwj]

I totally disagree. I'd cater specifically to that group.

Well, it's your money, but I think I'd do some SERIOUS research into what types of people are attracted to micros and what types are completely turned off by them. It may be different depending on geography, but every blue-collar job I've had in my life had pretty much the same types of personalities. ...and most of those weren't brew pub guys.

So, I guess I'll respectfully disagree, but I wish ya luck

 

[todd_k]

I feel that if you open a business and from the start you alienate a portion of the population, in this case the BMC crowd, you already put yourself at a disadvantage when so many small businesses already fail in the first year. Maybe you could find a local swill besides BMC to have on tap, maybe something like Old Style (or are they already owned by BMC?)

 

[TheJadedDog]

Just a quick thought as far as the blue collar crowd goes; I live in RI which is a fairly blue collar state, and we have several thriving brewpubs and beer bars, some more blue collar than others. I don't see anything wrong with trying to cater to that crowd; if you make a good product and charge a reasonable price, people will come, maybe not everyday, but they will come. The thing to be careful of is alienating other beer loving clientele as they will miss out on your beer if they feel uncomfortable, and isn't is really all about the beer?

 

[CBBaron]

I feel that if you open a business and from the start you alienate a portion of the population, in this case the BMC crowd, you already put yourself at a disadvantage when so many small businesses already fail in the first year. Maybe you could find a local swill besides BMC to have on tap, maybe something like Old Style (or are they already owned by BMC?)

My experience with brewpubs is that they usually only serve their own brew and the ones I know of are quite successful. However most also seem to have a fully stocked bar and a selection of wines for the non beer drinkers. Just keep a lite pale beer on tap and most of the BMC crowd that would enter a brewpub will be satisfied. I think serving a competitor's beer in a brewpub dilutes what makes a brewpub unique. If your serving BMC your just another bar/restaurant and there are plenty of those.
Now it may depend some on your market. A small town may have room for another bar that has a house beer but a metro area has too many choices so you have to offer something different to get the attention.
Craig

 

[Dude]

My experience with brewpubs is that they usually only serve their own brew and the ones I know of are quite successful. However most also seem to have a fully stocked bar and a selection of wines for the non beer drinkers. Just keep a lite pale beer on tap and most of the BMC crowd that would enter a brewpub will be satisfied. I think serving a competitor's beer in a brewpub dilutes what makes a brewpub unique. If your serving BMC your just another bar/restaurant and there are plenty of those.
Now it may depend some on your market. A small town may have room for another bar that has a house beer but a metro area has too many choices so you have to offer something different to get the attention.
Craig

Well said my friend. My thoughts exactly.

 

[RoaringBrewer]

I feel that if you open a business and from the start you alienate a portion of the population, in this case the BMC crowd, you already put yourself at a disadvantage when so many small businesses already fail in the first year. Maybe you could find a local swill besides BMC to have on tap, maybe something like Old Style (or are they already owned by BMC?)

Did you ever consider that so many businesses fail in the first year simply because they target the wrong market or try to target too much of a market? What is targetting the BMC crowd going to do?! You won't make a dime off selling BMC second-hand. They won't drink a local, similar beer (like Old Style or whatever; thats a micro to them). Personally, I think all they'll do is "scare" off the people who ARE going to buy your home/microbrewed beers. I'm a big-time brewpub fan and customer. I visit the locals all the time and visit anyone I can find while travelling. The reason I like them? I get to drink with beer enthusiasts. I'd rather not drink with, "real men drink Bud" types...

There is a reason why a certain type of persons frequents a brewpub and a certain type of person rejects it (price, atmosphere, lifestyle, whatever combination it may be...), however targetting them all may, more than likely, lead to the failure you are talking about avoiding.

The BMC crowd will come in to check out this "pub" either way. Some, with good taste and class, will stay. The others will leave and it's probably a good thing...

 

[paranode]

The problem I see is that most of this crowd tend to drink pretty heavily when they drink and are price sensitive. That is a big reason that many people stick with BMC. If you can make a good product that is price competitive with BMC at a blue collar bar then you main gain a market through word of mouth.
Cleveland is a very blue collar city but the customers at the local brewpubs appear to be predominately white collar.
However a good brew pub with that atmosphere is likely to attract a good customer base even if many are office workers.
Craig

I think that's the crux of the issue right there. People who drink BMC often do so because it is a) really cheap and b) watered down enough that they can drink a lot of it and get themselves drunk.

 

[Yanos]

Dude, I found this link to be helpful in my research: http://www.popthecap.org/docs/3Fbplan.pdf

Also, probrewer.com got some great resources on brewpubs and such...

 

[EdWort]

The brew pubs in my area only sell their brew and like CBBaron's experience, they also have a stocked bar. There are doing well in Austin.

It's all about craft beer and the market that can appreciate and afford it IMHO.

 

[the_bird]

Other times, an idiot...

Whenever I'm out drinking, I crave diner food. How 'bout a brewpub that, after 1:00 AM or so, started serving breakfast?

 

[Dude]

Oh, and I'd avoid the $48,000 monster (it's so beautiful...) and try to find something along the lines of Monster Mash's pool filter rig instead.

Something that is REALLY important to me in all of this is a "pretty" brewery. I think you have to have copper. Period. It not only is historic in brewing, but shiny copper is just beautiful. I'm firm on that.

It is imperitive that in any brewpub I own--I want a completely glassed in brewery so you can see it from the brewpub. I want to be able to be brewing and have some little puppy dog looking dude (just like me) staring inside that brewery interested as hell. I want to be able (as the brewer) to motion for him to come back into the brewery and take it all in--sights, sounds, smells. I want to be able to give him a sample of a latest beer right from the fermenter.

You'd have a customer for life, I guarantee it.

 

[EdWort]

Other times, an idiot...

Whenever I'm out drinking, I crave diner food. How 'bout a brewpub that, after 1:00 AM or so, started serving breakfast?

Like eggs, home fries, sausage & bacon? Perhaps a waffle with strawberrys & whipped cream?

OK, how bouta beer pairing here....

 

[the_bird]

Like eggs, home fries, sausage & bacon? Perhaps a waffle with strawberrys & whipped cream?

Mmmm.... exactly... damn, now I'm hungry, and I'm not even drunk yet!

 

[Dude]

That is the other thing my buddies and I talked about extensively one night....EVERY single item on the menu...would have beer in it. Someway, somehow.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Other times, an idiot...

Whenever I'm out drinking, I crave diner food. How 'bout a brewpub that, after 1:00 AM or so, started serving breakfast?

OMG!! I'd never leave such a place!

"I'll have another pitcher of SOS and a bridge of flopped hen-fruit, a crowd of zeppelins - painted red, and dough well done with cow to cover."

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Something that is REALLY important to me in all of this is a "pretty" brewery. I think you have to have copper. Period. It not only is historic in brewing, but shiny copper is just beautiful. I'm firm on that.

I concede. Have fun keeping it shiny.

 

[todd_k]

I know first hand that there are people who do not go to Legend in Richmond, VA because they don't have some mainstream beer. I know it must be hard to believe that some people don't like micro but they really do exist! Bottom line is it's the owner's call but you can't believe that you won't lose ANY business due to that choice. People who like micro/craft beers will go to bars that sell also sell BMC but I'm not sure the opposite is true.

I honestly don't know what I would do, I can see both sides to the argument. I sure as hell wouldn't want any Bud sold in my place but you can't make your beer if you can't pay your bills!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I know first hand that there are people who do not go to Legend in Richmond, VA because they don't have some mainstream beer. I know it must be hard to believe that some people don't like micro but they really do exist! Bottom line is it's the owner's call but you can't believe that you won't lose ANY business due to that choice. People who like micro/craft beers will go to bars that sell also sell BMC but I'm not sure the opposite is true.

Which is why the food needs to come first - people who like BMC will come for the food, and they just may try one of the Blonde Ales. People who like micros will come for the whole experience.