LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
That is not my experience in the least. If anything, I'm trying to tweak my HERMS rig to give me a bit less body than what I've been getting.
This dude says vorlauf strips lipids and should not be done.
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That is not my experience in the least. If anything, I'm trying to tweak my HERMS rig to give me a bit less body than what I've been getting.
biertourist
Well-Known Member
Hmm... Now I wish I'd kept better notes to see if it could have been something else.
You're a very experienced brewer so I definitely won't discount your experience. But I did the "iodine test" in back-to-back batches with near identical if not completely identical grists and definitely saw at LEAST a 10 minute acceleration in conversion time when recirculating vs. not recirculating... Now I wonder if something else didn't' also change between batches, though. (Slightly lower mash temp, different MO malt that had a higher DP?...)
Guess I need to revisit this test again and keep more notes.
Adam
This is where the joy of the similar threads area of each forum page is useful. Found a thread from 2009 discussing this same thing.
Noonan's New Lager Brewing: Page 150:
I'm going to give this a read to see what can be pulled out on it in reference to this thread.
Noonan's New Lager Brewing: Page 150:
Also of note is reference to a 2006 German study on lauter turbidity and it's influence in fermentation and finished beer quality. English translation begins on page 93.
I'm going to give this a read to see what can be pulled out on it in reference to this thread.
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LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
Another paper on lipids and various methods of reducing them. It's from 1985, so I don't know how relevant this information is.
What I get from it is that if you constantly recirculate your mash, you should whirlpool the hops and hot break and that should keep the lipid levels down. Lipids affect the long-term flavor of beer.
What I get from it is that if you constantly recirculate your mash, you should whirlpool the hops and hot break and that should keep the lipid levels down. Lipids affect the long-term flavor of beer.
Okay. So the Noonan book that was quoted was incorrectly, which sounds a bit more in-line with what I have heard regarding lipids. More turbid wort brings over more lipids.
It also is in-line with New Belgium's experiments several years back in adding olive oil to wort as a replacement for adding oxygen.
The studies used extreme examples where the grain bed was constantly disturbed during lautering, resulting in a very turbid wort high in lipids (same as what you might experience if squeezing a BIAB bag). It compared this to very clear wort, or recirculated wort (which was a fairly new technique from their perspective at the time).
In short, this is what I could summarize from the studies (there were several studies in that PDF).
In another study in the PDF, it extends higher levels of fatty acids to formation of trub in the boil kettle and then seeing if moving this trub to the fermenter acts the same way. They saw benefits to fermentation with some trub, but stopped short of how much would be beneficial.
All that said, no matter if you recirculate, volorauf, drain and go, or squeeze, you still make good beer. We're really talking about MINOR differences here. There are many other brewing practices that make a substantially larger difference in your final product.
Furthermore, if you add yeast nutrient, you're adding lipids and other things back into your wort that you might strip out with recirculating. This would negate any of these differences anyway.
It also is in-line with New Belgium's experiments several years back in adding olive oil to wort as a replacement for adding oxygen.
The studies used extreme examples where the grain bed was constantly disturbed during lautering, resulting in a very turbid wort high in lipids (same as what you might experience if squeezing a BIAB bag). It compared this to very clear wort, or recirculated wort (which was a fairly new technique from their perspective at the time).
In short, this is what I could summarize from the studies (there were several studies in that PDF).
- Turbid wort tends to aid in fermentation with shorter lag times and slightly higher attenuation.
- While previous studies hinted that turbid wort may reduce head retention due to extra lipids, the study did not experience this.
- There was no perceivable difference in quality between turbid and clear wort nor differences in beer stability or shelf life.
- Turbid wort can tend to lead to a small decrease in ester production such as ethyl acetate. This can likely be attributed to point 1.
In another study in the PDF, it extends higher levels of fatty acids to formation of trub in the boil kettle and then seeing if moving this trub to the fermenter acts the same way. They saw benefits to fermentation with some trub, but stopped short of how much would be beneficial.
All that said, no matter if you recirculate, volorauf, drain and go, or squeeze, you still make good beer. We're really talking about MINOR differences here. There are many other brewing practices that make a substantially larger difference in your final product.
Furthermore, if you add yeast nutrient, you're adding lipids and other things back into your wort that you might strip out with recirculating. This would negate any of these differences anyway.
Beer is good
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From what I gather, sounds like much ado about nothing, worrying about filtering lipids. I will just make sure not to recycle my wort for 24 hours.
Thanks for all the in depth comments about this every buddy.
Thanks for all the in depth comments about this every buddy.
It seems a lot of sources make mention of lipids and their affect on long term flavor stabilization and also creation trans-2-noneal.
My non-vorlaufed brew went through a substantial flavor transformation, that I initially, and still sorta, suspect was the first time use of Chinook. The change happened at room temperature a 1.5 months after kegging.
The flavor change was incredibly favorable and did not have the usual "old beer" tastes that I have been dealing with in hoppy beers the past (read trans-2-noneal). The flavor was very stable afterwards which is odd for a 2-3 month old beer of mid gravity with hops (1.063). The lacing on this beer was unlike any I have ever seen, it might have held a dime up on the side of an empty glass.
I should note that I don't use o2/aerate. I use an addition of Valine (amino acid) 2tsp and also Wyeast yeast nutrient in both the starter and fermenter. Also let trub settle 20-40 minutes before transfer from kettle. Mash was also very high temp at 158*, but dropped over 1.5 hours in a cooler.
I would suggest to any that want to try non-vorlauf beer to use Fawcett Maris Otter or perhaps other English variety malt due to it's higher lipid content.
My non-vorlaufed brew went through a substantial flavor transformation, that I initially, and still sorta, suspect was the first time use of Chinook. The change happened at room temperature a 1.5 months after kegging.
The flavor change was incredibly favorable and did not have the usual "old beer" tastes that I have been dealing with in hoppy beers the past (read trans-2-noneal). The flavor was very stable afterwards which is odd for a 2-3 month old beer of mid gravity with hops (1.063). The lacing on this beer was unlike any I have ever seen, it might have held a dime up on the side of an empty glass.
I should note that I don't use o2/aerate. I use an addition of Valine (amino acid) 2tsp and also Wyeast yeast nutrient in both the starter and fermenter. Also let trub settle 20-40 minutes before transfer from kettle. Mash was also very high temp at 158*, but dropped over 1.5 hours in a cooler.
I would suggest to any that want to try non-vorlauf beer to use Fawcett Maris Otter or perhaps other English variety malt due to it's higher lipid content.
He seems somewhat credible.
[ame]https://vimeo.com/12055691[/ame]
http://canalparkbrewery.com/2013/05/new-brew-pro-jeremy-king/
http://www.lakefrontbrewery.com/beer/seasonals/wisconsinite
Brettomomyces
LHBS Curmudgeon
Also not mine, and I'm in the same boat with purposefully trying to adjust some of my beers to end up drier.
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