Thinking about buying a P.H meter

[ChuckCollins]

Ok I am thinking about buying a PH meter ,I do all grain and use only 100% R.O water and use the 5.2 Mash pH Stabilizer sometimes does this product work ? and i use Calcium Chloride, Gypsum ,ETC to help my treat my R.O water , but my question is once you mash in people are saying you are getting conversion with 20 minutes so how can you control or make changes to your mash for this to help with your P.H levels ? 1 you have pull your sample let it cool down ,test it by then you might be 30 minutes into mash and then2 it's too late to add anything to your mash ? is there some way to explain this whole process to for me ?

 

[monkeyman1000]

I have only been adjusting my water for about a year now so I am far from an expert but I read this section a lot. From what I have read the 5.2 stuff only works in a very narrow set of situations so it probably isn't worth it. I use Brun water and Brewers friend to calculate my adjustments and they get me pretty close. I don't try to adjust anything during the mash but I use the final pH measurement to make adjustments next time I brew the same batch.

 

[GotPushrods]

the 5.2 Mash pH Stabilizer sometimes does this product work ?

No, not as advertised.

The flames are far out of control now, so to speak. Not sure the facts about this stuff will ever be reigned in, so maybe it's pointless for me to respond.

It might be a good source of sodium... if for some reason you need sodium... and don't want more bicarbonate or chloride. Or a paperweight.

 

[ChuckCollins]

Yes I have read alot of the Pro's and Con's of the 5.2 Mash pH Stabilizer and use it since I have it , mostly in darker beers
but I will nut buy it again I have been useing various minerals/salts now for malty or hoppy beers .

I want to nail down the water and P.H levels process to help fine tune my beers.

 

[wardens355]

but my question is once you mash in people are saying you are getting conversion with 20 minutes so how can you control or make changes to your mash for this to help with your P.H levels ? 1 you have pull your sample let it cool down ,test it by then you might be 30 minutes into mash and then2 it's too late to add anything to your mash ? is there some way to explain this whole process to for me ?

Here is what I do and have never had mash pH outside of 5.25 - 5.5:

1. Use water from a vending machine with RO, check the water for TDS. I found a machine that is consistently 10 PPM or less TDS, so I figure close enough to zero for everything.

2. Use Bru'n Water to make water chemistry adjustments that would theoretically get me around 5.3 - 5.4 room temp mash pH. Calculate volume of phosphoric acid if required, and prepare volume in a 5 or 10 mL oral syringe.

3. Right after the mash and mineral additions are well mixed, pull a sample in a small container (shot glass or whiskey glass works), and submerge most of the container in an ice bath, stirring until room temperature is met (only takes a couple minutes).

4. Take pH reading to confirm I am within range. I have never been out of range, but I would either add acid or chalk/baking soda depending on what side of the range I am on.

5. Thank Bru'n Water for getting me where I need to be and continue my brew session in confidence.

The time between mashing in and pH reading need not be more than a few minutes.

EDIT: As below, if your mash in and mixing are fairly quick, it is best to let the mash sit for a bit so pH can stabilize. I usually mash in to hit a couple degrees above my target mash and stir vigorously to get it down (I like to overshoot and bring down then have to add more hot water), so once I am done mixing its been several minutes and I figure the pH is stable.

 

[JonM]

but my question is once you mash in people are saying you are getting conversion with 20 minutes so how can you control or make changes to your mash for this to help with your P.H levels ?

At about 5 minutes into the mash, I pull only about 12-15 ml of liquid in a little beaker/shotglass, which isn't much at all. Then I run cool tap water over the outside of the glass until the liquid is about room temperature - it only takes a minute or so. Once that's done, I take my reading and have plenty of time to make any necessary adjustments.

The first time I make a recipe, I have some tinkering to do with acid additions, etc. to make sure the pH is right, but I take notes and, the next time I make that same recipe, I'm pretty much right on target.

 

[pcampo]

I agree with JonM and Wardens355.
If you DO have to make adjustments, it only takes a maximum of 5 minutes to cool your sample and add salts or acid. And If you are using 100% RO water and a program like Brun water, you will never have to make adjustments.

I use 50% RO and I have never had to make adjustments. My pH has been spot on, except for one time when I forgot to put the roasted grains in.

 

[pcampo]

I think, but correct me If im wrong, that a 20 min conversion happens in higher temperature range (alpha amylase range) and in ideal pH. So if your pH is off, you might not get full working potential of the enzymes.

 

[eric19312]

I think if you are interested in mash pH the pH meter is a good investment. I don't use it every brew but it has provided very helpful feedback in recipe design. I now have a pretty good idea about which beers are not likely to need adjustment and am rarely surprised by these beers. I find it very useful for beers that fall outside that range such as some very pale low gravity brews such as berliner weisse.

Also it is very useful for monitoring lactic fermentations when brewing sour beers. I tend to pitch the lactic acid bacteria in warm wort several days before pitching sacc. I will take daily hydrometer and pH measurements to see where the lactic is to decide when to cool to 68 and pitch sacc.

 

[pcampo]

For whats it worth, I have had a pH meter for a fews years now, and i have not used it in over a year. If i were to go back, I probably WOULD NOT buy it again, mainly because of the expensive. I have to buy pH storage solution frequently to properly store it, and calibration solutions, and the biggest expensive being having to buy a new electrode once every 1-2 years which is around 80 bucks.

With the hassle of making sure i properly store, and calibrating it, and paying 80 bucks every year or two, I dont see the benefit of having it since Brun water, and good pH strips have been working great for me. Even more so if you use 100% RO, which will gurantee your mash pH, if you use a good program

I use the pH strips only to make sure nothing is seriously off or i forgot something. I dont really care if my true mash pH is 5.2 or 5.4. I have been producing crisp and bright beers which tells me i am consistently hitting lower end mash pH which is what i aim for.

It may come in handy for other things like one person said above, but for mash pH, I have not needed it.

 

[wardens355]

I think if you are interested in mash pH the pH meter is a good investment. I don't use it every brew but it has provided very helpful feedback in recipe design. I now have a pretty good idea about which beers are not likely to need adjustment and am rarely surprised by these beers. I find it very useful for beers that fall outside that range such as some very pale low gravity brews such as berliner weisse.

Also it is very useful for monitoring lactic fermentations when brewing sour beers. I tend to pitch the lactic acid bacteria in warm wort several days before pitching sacc. I will take daily hydrometer and pH measurements to see where the lactic is to decide when to cool to 68 and pitch sacc.

What pH do you typically wait to hit before pitching Saccharomyces?

 

[eric19312]

What pH do you typically wait to hit before pitching Saccharomyces?

Well under 4.

Here was data I collected on a Gose that came out really well to my taste:
1 days pH 4.90 sg 14.3 brix on refrac, crazy frothy krausen
2 days pH 4.55 sg 14.0 brix on refract, still only slightly tart
3 days pH 4.56 sg 14.0 brix, slight lemony tartness
4 days pH 4.07 sg 13.9 brix, started dropping temp
5 days pH 3.74 sg 13.5 brix, @85F, tastes like an arnold palmer, turned on cooling to get to 68
6 days pH 3.69 sg 12.3 brix, @68F, pitched 3x11g packs US05, hydrated

My sour beer primary has a port for taking daily samples to avoid introducing oxygen. I use the refractometer on these to not waste full hydrometer samples.

 

[wardens355]

Well under 4.

Here was data I collected on a Gose that came out really well to my taste:
1 days pH 4.90 sg 14.3 brix on refrac, crazy frothy krausen
2 days pH 4.55 sg 14.0 brix on refract, still only slightly tart
3 days pH 4.56 sg 14.0 brix, slight lemony tartness
4 days pH 4.07 sg 13.9 brix, started dropping temp
5 days pH 3.74 sg 13.5 brix, @85F, tastes like an arnold palmer, turned on cooling to get to 68
6 days pH 3.69 sg 12.3 brix, @68F, pitched 3x11g packs US05, hydrated

My sour beer primary has a port for taking daily samples to avoid introducing oxygen. I use the refractometer on these to not waste full hydrometer samples.

Interesting. So when you pitch under 4 pH do you add three packets of yeast to make sure you have enough cells? The reason being the Sacc don't reproduce well at that pH?

 

[eric19312]

For whats it worth, I have had a pH meter for a fews years now, and i have not used it in over a year. If i were to go back, I probably WOULD NOT buy it again, mainly because of the expensive.

I am not sure I will replace mine when the electrode gives out but think I am learning a lot right now while I am using it. For example
-- I found a mistake in the way I used Bru'n water when the pH measured something different than I expected.
-- I was able to see the impact of 1 lb on saurmalt on a 10 gallon batch mash
-- I see impact of small additions of lactic acid during mash (1 tsp is usually good to move my pH down from 5.5 to about 5.35

With the experience of using the meter on a bunch of batches I think I would now be much more comfortable without measuring pH because I feel I have gained understanding of likely pH and more confidence in the use of the predictive tools. But it is not hard to measure and I still get surprised from time to time, maybe best feature is by knowing what to do when I get a high reading.

 

[eric19312]

Interesting. So when you pitch under 4 pH do you add three packets of yeast to make sure you have enough cells? The reason being the Sacc don't reproduce well at that pH?

It was a 12 gallon batch.

 

[pcampo]

-- I found a mistake in the way I used Bru'n water when the pH measured something different than I expected.
-- I was able to see the impact of 1 lb on saurmalt on a 10 gallon batch mash
-- I see impact of small additions of lactic acid during mash (1 tsp is usually good to move my pH down from 5.5 to about 5.35

Excellent point! It does seem that a pH meter would be very usefull when it comes to not only fine tuning your recipe, but also measuring the affects of grain/salts/ acid on mash pH

 

[ChuckCollins]

I just gave Bru'n Water a donation will play with it

 

[mabrungard]

Ok I am thinking about buying a PH meter ,I do all grain and use only 100% R.O water and use the 5.2 Mash pH Stabilizer sometimes does this product work ? and i use Calcium Chloride, Gypsum ,ETC to help my treat my R.O water , but my question is once you mash in people are saying you are getting conversion with 20 minutes so how can you control or make changes to your mash for this to help with your P.H levels ? 1 you have pull your sample let it cool down ,test it by then you might be 30 minutes into mash and then2 it's too late to add anything to your mash ? is there some way to explain this whole process to for me ?

Chuck, in your case with using straight RO water (I hate to say this), the 5.2 product can be useful for adding alkalinity to your mashing water. However, this is only in cases where your mash pH would fall below the desired pH range...like when brewing a stout with RO water. For almost all other cases, the 5.2 product is not useful.

However when using a program like Bru'n Water, you have the option to use more useful minerals in achieving proper pH. So instead of using the 5.2 stuff, you can use baking soda or pickling lime in the mash to keep mash pH from dropping too low when mashing dark styles. For most other mashing, you wouldn't need any sort of alkali. You would actually need to add an acid and that is where the 5.2 product fails miserably.

So, you are on the right track. Learn to manipulate your mashing water pH with acids or alkalis and you won't need to use snake oil.

With regard to pH meter usage and recommendations, the Bru'n Water Facebook page has all kinds of information on what to look for when purchasing a meter and how to keep it performing well for a long time.

 

[ajdelange]

Chuck, in your case with using straight RO water (I hate to say this), the 5.2 product can be useful for adding alkalinity to your mashing water.

Yes, it does contribute alkalinity but I'm not very enthusiastic about its use as a source of alkalinity. Because it buffers to pH 5.9 in distilled water we can tell that it is a mixture of 1 part dibasic sodium phosphate with 11.7 parts of monobasic sodium phosphate. Let's say we need 100 mEq of alkalinity for a particular mash that we want to come out at pH 5.4. 123 mmol of the dibasic salt would absorb 121 mmol of protons and add 123 mmol sodium ions to the mash. A quantity of 5.2 that contains 123 mmol of the dibasic salt also contains 1442 mmol of the monobasic salt which releases 21 mmol of protons thus making the net absorption of the addition 100 mmol but also adds 2884 mmol sodium to the mash. It would make much more sense to add just the dibasic salt as the monobasic is a source of acidity and the additional sodium load for this detriment to alkalinity is about 22 times sodium load of the dibasic. Only 102 mmol of the dibasic salt are necessary if the monobasic is not present and results in 102 mmol of sodium added. As most will not have access to dibasic phosphate salts it just would make much more sense to get 100 mEq proton deficit from 111 mmol of sodium bicarbonate which adds 111 mmol sodium.

 

[pcampo]

^Exactly my thoughts

 

[ChuckCollins]

On the Bru'n Water how do I use it to Build up a water profile for 100 % R.O. water ? I have just kinda playing with it

Do I go with a 100 % dilution and go from there

 

[pcampo]

Yup. then add your salts and/or acid according to the water profile you are trying to hit and to the target mash pH

 

[Spartan1979]

I think, but correct me If im wrong, that a 20 min conversion happens in higher temperature range (alpha amylase range) and in ideal pH. So if your pH is off, you might not get full working potential of the enzymes.

I take my pH reading at 15 minutes. I never make adjustments, I figure it's too late, but it does give me information as to what I have to do next time.

 

[rhys333]

Yup. then add your salts and/or acid according to the water profile you are trying to hit and to the target mash pH

Regarding Bru'n Water...
I've been using EZ water and just downloaded Bru'n to compare. Using the same grain bill, salts and acid EZ gave a mash pH of 5.2 (room temp), while Bru'n gave 4.9! Reading through other sources and above here, can I assume Bru'n provides the greatest pH accuracy?

Also, is there a way to zero out sparge water additions (I'm using RO) other that plugging in a value of 0.0 in sparge water volume on the Water Adjustment page? Playing around with it, I'm assuming this has the same effect as unchecking the sparge salt additions in EZ Water. Feel free to hit me if I'm going too far

 

[ajdelange]

Reading through other sources and above here, can I assume Bru'n provides the greatest pH accuracy?

No. You can't assume that any of the calculators are more accurate than any of the others. You can pay attention to statements like 'EZ seems to estimate high and Bru'n seems to estimate low' and indeed one program may have more of a bias (systematic error) than an other. You could also argue that Brewers Friend is more accurate than the others because it is based on actual measurements on malts but it is based on the malts Kai measured, not the malts you are brewing with and so that argument becomes empty. There are, for example, appreciable difference in the properties of Marris Otter malts from two different maltsters that I have measured.

If you use one of the programs (I think initially you should use all 3 and others if you find them) or the other and find that it gives better results than the others based on your actual pH measurements I think you can assume that the malt models used by that program, whatever they may be, better reflect the malts that you are using than the other programs and run with that program as long as you don't change what you are doing significantly.

The only way to accurate pH prediction is a detailed set of measurements on each malt you use and as a test mash is orders of magnitude simpler to do there isn't much hope that we will get the detailed analyses of the malts we need unless we can persuade the maltsters to do them. pH predictions from programs, especially those that indicate the individual mash component proton surfeits and deficits can be very instructive and can help the brewer gain considerable insight as to how he might adjust mash pH, what the effects of another 5% crystal might be and so on but he is a foolish brewer indeed if he thinks the absolute value predicted by any program is more accurate than say ±0.1 pH. This is why a pH meter is such an important part of your kit.

 

[pcampo]

Regarding Bru'n Water...
I've been using EZ water and just downloaded Bru'n to compare. Using the same grain bill, salts and acid EZ gave a mash pH of 5.2 (room temp), while Bru'n gave 4.9! Reading through other sources and above here, can I assume Bru'n provides the greatest pH accuracy?

Good question. I have no idea which would be more accurate. I have never really used any other program besides Brun water, however ajdelange made a great point. I think I should start looking at other programs...I guess that's where a pH meter will come in handy to see which program gives you consistent results according to pH readings.

Also, is there a way to zero out sparge water additions (I'm using RO) other that plugging in a value of 0.0 in sparge water volume on the Water Adjustment page? Playing around with it, I'm assuming this has the same effect as unchecking the sparge salt additions in EZ Water. Feel free to hit me if I'm going too far

I think if you are using 100% RO water then you don't have to mess with that the sparge water additions and just leave it as is. I think I remember something that Ajdelange has said and maybe he can correct me, and that's that if you use 100% RO water for sparging you don't have don't worry tannin extraction. I use around 50% RO water and I just take the new bicarbonate number that Brun water calculates for me and input that number, then I just "guess" the pH of the water; I should probably just take a pH reading of the water and use that.

 

[ajdelange]

Regarding Bru'n Water...
I've been using EZ water and just downloaded Bru'n to compare. Using the same grain bill, salts and acid EZ gave a mash pH of 5.2 (room temp), while Bru'n gave 4.9!

If you would like to post your grain bill and water ion content (alkalinity, calcium and magnesium) we can go through and see whether either or both of those estimates are reasonable.

 

[ajdelange]

I think if you are using 100% RO water then you don't have to mess with that the sparge water additions and just leave it as is. I think I remember something that Ajdelange has said and maybe he can correct me, and that's that if you use 100% RO water for sparging you don't have don't worry tannin extraction.

Yes, I have made statements like this. If the water contains no alkalinity (other than its tiny intrinsic alkalinity) it will not absorb protons (hydrogen ions) from the mash and the pH will not rise appreciably until you get to the point where the dissolved acids in the wort have effectively become so diluted that the runoff is more like water than wort. This is usually well past the point where a brewer decides he has extracted all the sugar he practically can but it is best to do a series of pH vs °P measurements so that you know how your equipment behaves in this regard.

 

[pcampo]

This is usually well past the point where a brewer decides he has extracted all the sugar he practically can but it is best to do a series of pH vs °P measurements so that you know how your equipment behaves in this regard.

Im trying to picture this being done. Do I just take small samples throughout run off? Do I do this until I essentially have water coming out?

 

[pcampo]

All this talk is making me re-think my opinions on this thread about a pH meter. Dang it, buying a new electrode for 70 bucks, what a pain in the ass.

 

[pcampo]

Ajdelange, how accurate or inaccurate are those pH strips? I have been using the colorpHast. I know this question has been asked extensively on homebrewtalk. But I figured I can get a faster answer from you. Would these pH strips be appropriate for the experiment you mentioned above?

 

[ajdelange]

Im trying to picture this being done. Do I just take small samples throughout run off? Do I do this until I essentially have water coming out?

Yes, just pull off enough to float your hydrometer. Cool it quickly, take the SG reading, transfer a couple of cc to another small container and pour the rest of the sample into the kettle. Check the pH of the sub sample. Do this until the runoff is below say 3 °P. At that point the runoff is 3% sugar (each liter run off contains 30 grams whereas initially a liter contains 180 or more).

 

[ajdelange]

Ajdelange, how accurate or inaccurate are those pH strips? I have been using the colorpHast. I know this question has been asked extensively on homebrewtalk. But I figured I can get a faster answer from you. Would these pH strips be appropriate for the experiment you mentioned above?

In general pH strips are pretty useless for any application in brewing except perhaps checking that CIP acids or bases have been adequately neutralized for dumping.

 

[rhys333]

If you would like to post your grain bill and water ion content (alkalinity, calcium and magnesium) we can go through and see whether either or both of those estimates are reasonable.

Thanks AJ. The amounts are a bit whacky, as this is a BIAB partial mash/boil due to indoor winter brewing.

7.2 lb MO
0.75 lb Victory
0.75 lb Dark Munich (15L)
0.5 lb Carapils
- 3.3 gal mash with RO water treated with 2g gypsum and 4g CaCl2. 1.7 gal straight RO sparge for a total ion contribution of Ca:82, Cl:102, S04:59. I ended up adding 1ml lactic acid to the mash for an estimated room-temp pH of 5.43 (EZ Water).

Austin.

 

[ajdelange]

Remembering that any criticism of anyone elses estimates that I may have levies I must levy against my own I would estimate that the pH of this mash would be 5.48 at room temp using Crisp Maris Otter and 5.61 using Muntons Maris Otter. The first of these is comparable, at least, to the 5.43 estimated by EZ. The second isn't. I'm not sure whose M.O. you are using nor do I have any idea how it may relate to either of the two I modeled or the model used by the EZ spreadsheet.

Assuming 5.48 to be the correct answer the protons are distributed as follows:
Calcium reaction with malt phosphate: -13.6
Lactic Acid: -11.5
Base Malt (Crisp): 32.3
Victory (modeled as Crystal 40): -5.9
Dark Munich: +0.7
Carapils: -1.7

The main thing trying to raise the pH is the alkalinity of the base malt or, put another way, Crisp MO has a DI mash pH of 5.68 and it takes quite a bit of acid to pull its pH down to 5.48 in fact it takes 32 mEq. These come primarily from the lactic acid (11.7 mEq) and the phosphate reaction (13.6 mEq). The high colored malts supply the rest 5.9 from the Victory and 1.7 from the Carapils.

In #24 you had indicated estimates of pH 5.2 from EZ and 4.9 from Brun Water. So lets see what it would take for the mash pH to be 0.3 lower that what we have calculated IOW pH 5.18. The main player is the base malt because it is 78% of the grist. When pH deviates from the DI mash pH of the base malt, thus, the required acid goes way up. In this case from 32 mEq to 83. The lactic acid still only provides 11.5 and the phosphate reaction 13.6. As this lower pH is closer to the DI mash pH's of the colored malts (with the exception of the Munich) they supply even less acid and the Munich, with it's DI mash pH of about 5.5 actually requires 4 mEq more acid leading to a total deficit of 60 mEq. There is just no source for this acid with these grains. It would take 0.43 lbs of sauermalz (4.5% of the grist) to get enough protons. Or one could add 60 mEq additional lactic (5 mL of 88%). Thus while the EZ estimate seems reasonable an estimate 0.3 lower than the EZ estimate does not.

 

[rhys333]

Thanks for running through the process AJ. I confess I'm a bit lost when it comes to the scientific descriptions, though I can clarify points I mentioned in #24 above.

The differing EZ and Bru'n estimates I mentioned (#24) were based on a slightly a different grain/mineral bill than what I ended up actually brewing, as listed in #34. Also, perhaps incorrectly, I categorized victory as a roasted grain instead of C40.

The key thing is that with the exact same numbers plugged into both programs, I still get the ~0.3 variance. Taking the grain bill in #34, without acid additions, I get a room-temp pH of 5.53 (EZ Water) and 5.2 (Bru'n). This is with the 2g gypsum and 4g CaCl2 included in the mash water.

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks for running through the process AJ. I confess I'm a bit lost when it comes to the scientific descriptions,

It's really quite simple but it must seem terribly difficult to understand. That isn't because it isn't simple. It's because the measures (pH, mEq) are not things with which you are familiar.

Think of pH as the percentage of light which can pass through a beer. If the amount of light is very low (small %) we say the beer is 'acidic'. If it is very high we say the beer is 'basic'. The amount of light passed is, thus, analogous to pH.

If we mix a dark beer with a lighter beer some of the coloring matter passes from the dark beer to invade the light beer which can be said to absorb the coloring matter. The color of the mix is intermediate between that of the light and dark beers. It is the color at which the amount of coloring material absorbed by the lighter beer is just equal to the amount of coloring material released by the light beer. In order to calculate that color we just need to know how much coloring matter would have to be given up by the dark beer in order to get it to an arbitrary lighter color an how much coloring matter would have to be absorbed by the lighter beer to get it to an arbitrary darker color. We'll express the amount of coloring matter in mEq. To find the final color of the mix we experiment with various 'pH' values. Eventually we will find one where the mEq of coloring matter given up by the darker beer just equals he amount absorbed by the lighter one.

The math is exactly the same for real pH and mEq of protons.

..though I can clarify points I mentioned in #24 above.

The differing EZ and Bru'n estimates I mentioned (#24) were based on a slightly a different grain/mineral bill than what I ended up actually brewing, as listed in #34.

Also, perhaps incorrectly, I categorized victory as a roasted grain instead of C40.

The key thing is that with the exact same numbers plugged into both programs, I still get the ~0.3 variance. Taking the grain bill in #34, without acid additions, I get a room-temp pH of 5.53 (EZ Water)

And, based on the discussions in the previous post this is a reasonable estimate...

...and 5.2 (Bru'n). This is with the 2g gypsum and 4g CaCl2 included in the mash water.

... but this is not.

 

[rhys333]

Okay, got it. Thanks.