Thinking about building an RO filter.. have questions...

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r8rphan

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So, rather than buy and deal with a bunch of RO or Distilled water, or spending money on a water report for my well, which will likely change once the drought here ceases and the aquifers refill (well is very low right now), I'm thinking I might as well build an RO filter and start with a baseline pure water, building up from there....

So, I've been reading a 'little' about how they work and what the components are, and have some questions...

It seems like all the DIY kits, or DIY version I see, are just using standard 10" water filter units that accept 2.5" x 10" standard sized filters...

In reading about the RO filter membrane itself, it describes 'waste water' (or brine).. The thing is, I don't understand where this water goes, as all these standard filter housings only have an in an an out, but the way I am reading things, the RO membrane has an in and (2) outs.. One for the filtered water, and one for the waste water...

How does this work with the standard filter housing (which only has an in and an out)? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Also, I have found a couple of RO membrane filters on ebay for a reasonable price (>$15, free shipping), but they come from China, and take a month for delivery... Are there any US sources, that are priced anywhere near that that don't take so long to have delivered?

I have a bunch of sediment filters that I bought for use with a beer filter, so I have those and the housing to get started with...

So basically, I need two more housings, an RO membrane, a carbon filter, maybe a couple of pressure gauges, some 1/4" fittings, and answers on how the waste water part is plumbed...

Can anyone recommend what carbon filter and membrane I should get (TFC type appears to be what I should be looking for), and good, reasonably priced on line sources for them?

I suspect my water is low PH, because I get blue coloring in my bathtub where the water comes out of the fill spout, and everything I can find on the internet suggests that means I have low PH...

Also, should I buy a TDS meter and a PH meter? Suggestions for low priced versions that are good enough for use in mashing beer?

Thanks!
:mug:
 
The RO housing is different than a standard filter housing. It has 3 ports, a water in, brine out, and permeate (RO filtered water) out.

Do yourself a favor, and just contact Buckeye Hydro. They'll set you up with what you need without overselling you on stuff you don't.
 
The_Bishop said:
The RO housing is different than a standard filter housing. It has 3 ports, a water in, brine out, and permeate (RO filtered water) out.

Do yourself a favor, and just contact Buckeye Hydro. They'll set you up with what you need without overselling you on stuff you don't.
Click to expand...

+1 for Buckeye. Called them up and told them I needed RO for home brewing. I think it was $190 to my door. I also got a shut off valve and inline TDS meter which cost more. I think it would have been $150.
 
Most buy the complete system for $120 to $200 which includes pre and post filters, carbon block, RO membrane and storage tank along with all plumbing between untis. Keep in mind that RO is slow, that is why you need a tank as it can't keep up with the demand of an open faucett. The RO waste goes down the drain. If you've not done this before, I wouldn't recommend piecing it together yourself. anything you think you save will be gobbled up in rebuys.
 
Do yourself a favor, and just contact Buckeye Hydro. They'll set you up with what you need without overselling you on stuff you don't.
Click to expand...

+1 for Buckeye. Called them up and told them I needed RO for home brewing. I think it was $190 to my door. I also got a shut off valve and inline TDS meter which cost more. I think it would have been $150.
Click to expand...

Agree 110%. You won't regret it. Great products, excellent support. Very knowledgeable. Can't go wrong.
 
Dfitz said:
I used these guys for my RO system. 6ST and complete set of replacement filters I think I paid just over $100. I have well water also + excess iron and I live next to a corn/soybean field. I have to use a water softener so RO wasn't really a choice.
http://www.purewaterclub.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=88&osCsid=vfmkbqgyizibjv
Shipping took like 4 days
Click to expand...

How does a water softener affect RO? Doesn't RO strip everything out, regardless of the source?

Asking, because I may have to add a water softener at some point down the road to deal with the acidic and hard well water.... Don't want it to hurt my tankless water heater... (not to mention all the other fixtures/fittings)
 
A water softener basically exchanges minerals like calcium and magnesium for another mineral usually sodium. So even after you soften your water, you still have a mineral that you may not want in your beer. That's where the RO system comes into play. The RO will then remove the sodium.

If your water is extremely hard, the purpose for the water softener before RO is just to save the RO membrane. It is fragile and it could lessen it's useful life if the water is too hard.
 
h22lude said:
A water softener basically exchanges minerals like calcium and magnesium for another mineral usually sodium. So even after you soften your water, you still have a mineral that you may not want in your beer. That's where the RO system comes into play. The RO will then remove the sodium.

If your water is extremely hard, the purpose for the water softener before RO is just to save the RO membrane. It is fragile and it could lessen it's useful life if the water is too hard.
Click to expand...

That's how I thought it all worked... I got a little confused, thinking he was saying that using a water softener would exclude one from using an RO...
 
What do you guys think about THIS UNIT?

It's only $28 more (delivered) than just the shipping on a buckeye unit... It's missing a gauge, but that can be added later, or is one really that necessary considering the low volume of water we're using them for in brewing?
 
The gauge helps you see what your water pressure is. You need a higher pressure for ro.
 
Keep in mind that the 100 gal. per day is not 100% pure water output. You'll get about 30 gal. per day of pure water.

I believe the balance of their rating is the output of discharge water. Just to give you an idea of how much ahead of time you'll have to make water.
 
Dfitz said:
Keep in mind that the 100 gal. per day is not 100% pure water output. You'll get about 30 gal. per day of pure water.

I believe the balance of their rating is the output of discharge water. Just to give you an idea of how much ahead of time you'll have to make water.
Click to expand...

I think the rating is pure water. I get 4 gallons an hour on my 100 gpd system.

30 gpd of pure water would be painfully slow. I believe they have 50 gpd systems which would then be about 15 gpd pure water which would be less than a trickle.
 
r8rphan said:
What do you guys think about THIS UNIT?

It's only $28 more (delivered) than just the shipping on a buckeye unit... It's missing a gauge, but that can be added later, or is one really that necessary considering the low volume of water we're using them for in brewing?
Click to expand...

That unit will be more expensive in the long run, as it uses throwaway filter housings. Essentially, you'll throw almost all of it away with the sole exception of the clips and the RO housing. Also, that GAC filter isn't going to be enough to remove chlorine in your source water, if you have any. this will eat away at your RO membrane. Also, you do *not* need DI (deionized) water.


Dfitz said:
Keep in mind that the 100 gal. per day is not 100% pure water output. You'll get about 30 gal. per day of pure water.

I believe the balance of their rating is the output of discharge water. Just to give you an idea of how much ahead of time you'll have to make water.
Click to expand...

That's not correct. The ratings are for permeate (pure water) productions, given 77 degree water at 60 PSI with 250 TDS. You will make more or less permeate, depending on your water's TDS, temperature or pressure.

The discharge water is dependent on the flow restrictor in the brine discharge line.
 
The_Bishop said:
That unit will be more expensive in the long run, as it uses throwaway filter housings. Essentially, you'll throw almost all of it away with the sole exception of the clips and the RO housing. Also, that GAC filter isn't going to be enough to remove chlorine in your source water, if you have any. this will eat away at your RO membrane. Also, you do *not* need DI (deionized) water.
Click to expand...

They say their housings use standard 10" filters... But even if they don't... I brew maybe monthly or every other month.. If I use 15 gallons per brew session, 2500-3000 gallons will allow for a heck of a lot of brewing.... (150-200 sessions, or 12-33 years)..

I have a well, and only treat it with chlorine maybe once or twice a year... I pour about a cup or less into the well, and it is pumped into a 1000g holding tank, and then I go through probably 200-300 gallons a week (more in the summer months)... It is quickly dissipated...

I can't imagine chlorine would be an issue.... especially if I wait a month or two before using the filter after treatment... or would it? I've never smelled or tasted it in my water....
 
The_Bishop said:
That's not correct. The ratings are for permeate (pure water) productions, given 77 degree water at 60 PSI with 250 TDS. You will make more or less permeate, depending on your water's TDS, temperature or pressure.

The discharge water is dependent on the flow restrictor in the brine discharge line.
Click to expand...


I saw a calculator on one of these sites, that said that a 100g filter, at 65psi (mine varies between 55-80 psi depending on the pressure in the bladder tank and when the pressure pump is triggered), that it would put out I think it said 99 GPD of pure filtered water with a 100gpd membrane..

This brings up another question though... If the water in the tank is 35-40 degrees (winter time), but it comes into the house before being fed to the RO filter system, and the inside of the house is kept from 68-75 degrees (I use a fireplace to do most of my heating in the winter), would not the temp going into the filter likely be the same as the room temperature, seeing as it processes the water so slowly? My thinking is that it sits in the tubing and supply lines long enough to warm to room temp....
 
Here's the thing.. I only have about $200 left to spend on this project and then I have to focus my attention on some other things that this project has already pushed off a couple months (winter doesn't care if I'm ready for it or not, so I gotta get them done before it sets in)..

I have to buy an RO filter, bulk hops, and likely will need another 50lb bag of grain before the first of the year out of that money..

So it's gotta be cost effective (why I was considering putting my own together)... I like the portable idea... in case SHTF.. ;)

I'm thinking that if this thing will work for a year or so, then maybe I can get a nicer one from buckeye next summer, and also add a 15g tank (with a 3/4" FNPT) and drinking faucet all mounted under the sink in the kitchen and then plumb a 1/2" line to the porch (about 10') to a freeze proof faucet.. That would give me eleven gallons at pressure on the porch where the brewery is, to quickly fill the kettle for mash, I could then wait a half hour before starting the mash, and by the time I'm through with the mash, the tank should have plenty refilled in it to do the make up or sparge water or whatever I want to do with it to complete the brew session... This would also allow me to use it the normal way when not brewing, for drinking, cooking, filling the coffee maker, connecting to the ice maker, etc...

Then I'd have this one for camping or emergency water or whatever... (I'd need to add a 12v pressure pump, or a manually operated one for that purpose though)

Or am I misunderstanding something again?
 
The problem I have with that listing is several of the statistics they're quoting are complete BS. My RO system is pretty optimized; 100psi feed via booster pump, 1 micron sediment filter and .5 micron carbon block filter pre RO membrane, and a .5 micron carbon block 'polishing' filter when the water exits the pressure tank. Water feed is on a solenoid, tank is on a pressure switch. Permeate gets pushed into the tank via a permeate pump. System has little/no TDS creep. I'm also at a 2:1 wastewater ratio, as I'm feeding the unit with softened water. I get a 98% rejection rate measuring my permeate TDS vs. the feed water. I'm also producing ~130 GPD on a 100GPD RO membrane. However, my RO system is a tad... advanced.

They're claiming a 99% rejection rate, which is impossible to claim as that depends on the incoming water characteristics.

Also: a 5 micron sediment filter is too coarse. 5 micron 'sediment' will quickly plug up a membrane. The DI 'filter' is a waste. Granulated activated carbon is old and nearly useless for cleaning aromatic/undesirable elements from the water. The picture they show of the 'system' is *not* 'standard' filter housings, it's a bunch of throwaway elements that aren't rated for what they're doing with them.

POQ-4B-100.JPG


It's 67 dollars with free shipping. That tells me that the membrane is probably *not* a DOW RO membrane, it'll be a Chinese knockoff. Likewise the rest of the parts are likely to be junk quality, too. See all those 'filters'? None of them open, you throw the whole thing away and replace it. I'd guess the cost to replace all of them is close to the cost of buying a new system.

The buckeye value system with a real DOW 75 GPD membrane is $94 + shipping. Best part is you can add to it as it *really* uses standard filter housings and a standard RO housing. It's modular and maintenance is a lot cheaper/easier.
 
The_Bishop said:
The problem I have with that listing is several of the statistics they're quoting are complete BS. My RO system is pretty optimized; 100psi feed via booster pump, 1 micron sediment filter and .5 micron carbon block filter pre RO membrane, and a .5 micron carbon block 'polishing' filter when the water exits the pressure tank. Water feed is on a solenoid, tank is on a pressure switch. Permeate gets pushed into the tank via a permeate pump. System has little/no TDS creep. I'm also at a 2:1 wastewater ratio, as I'm feeding the unit with softened water. I get a 98% rejection rate measuring my permeate TDS vs. the feed water. I'm also producing ~130 GPD on a 100GPD RO membrane. However, my RO system is a tad... advanced.

They're claiming a 99% rejection rate, which is impossible to claim as that depends on the incoming water characteristics.

Also: a 5 micron sediment filter is too coarse. 5 micron 'sediment' will quickly plug up a membrane. The DI 'filter' is a waste. Granulated activated carbon is old and nearly useless for cleaning aromatic/undesirable elements from the water. The picture they show of the 'system' is *not* 'standard' filter housings, it's a bunch of throwaway elements that aren't rated for what they're doing with them.

[pic]http://59.124.16.10/items/Pic/POQ/POQ-4B-100.JPG[/pic]

It's 67 dollars with free shipping. That tells me that the membrane is probably *not* a DOW RO membrane, it'll be a Chinese knockoff. Likewise the rest of the parts are likely to be junk quality, too. See all those 'filters'? None of them open, you throw the whole thing away and replace it. I'd guess the cost to replace all of them is close to the cost of buying a new system.

The buckeye value system with a real DOW 75 GPD membrane is $94 + shipping. Best part is you can add to it as it *really* uses standard filter housings and a standard RO housing. It's modular and maintenance is a lot cheaper/easier.
Click to expand...

yeah, you're probably right on the quality aspect.... I 'could' use my existing filter housing (I bought to filter beer) and put a 1 micron filter in it before the system, 'if' that's the only issue...

The killer for me with the buckeye systems is the $40 shipping... That puts them in the 'ouch' category...

I wonder if there is someplace local that I can go to and just buy what I need at a similar price point to the buckeye stuff...
 
Call some local plumbers and get some quotes. My plumber installed a full system for my neighbor. *Something I need to look into.
 
r8rphan said:
I brew maybe monthly or every other month.. If I use 15 gallons per brew session, 2500-3000 gallons will allow for a heck of a lot of brewing.... (150-200 sessions, or 12-33 years
Click to expand...

Ya know, this is the same way I looked at it.

I do realize this system isn't a high quality RO system but it gives me good water to make beer at a reasonable price. I have a BIL who owns a water maint. service. He was the one who set up my softener. He comes to deliver salt occasionally as I need it. I haven't had the opportunity yet but I thought I'd have him look into what's coming out of the business end of the system. Maybe do some sort of analysis.

I considered putting a pressure gauge before the system to see what actual pressure I have. My well is submersible and I don't have a pressure meter. I have a hose bib immediately at the softener's output and I just ran it through my utility room vent to the outside and ran it to my garage where I brew.
In the winter I'll bring it in so it doesn't freeze.
 
I've been throwing all the change from my pockets into a bucket for the last couple of years.. I was planning on using this to buy a 32" flatscreen that I can use as a portable TV for the bedroom, the back porch or out by one of the fire pits...

Been rolling up quarters to see how much I got, maybe if I have enough I can wait a little longer on the TV and put some of the change towards the buckeye setup...Heck maybe I have enough to do both now...

Sheesh, my brew build has reduced me to rolling up change..
:eek:
:smack:
 
Alright guys.. I bit the bullet on a buckeye system... Their premium RO @100gpd + handheld TDS meter + hose bib adapter... with shipping $187 (ouch)

Had I ordered yesterday, I could have taken advantage of a 10% off sale.. Day late and a dollar short.. Story of my life for such things... Of course I get to know about this sale after the fact, just to rub it in.. :(

Now I gotta go back to counting change... :rolleyes:
:taco::beard::goat:
 
I agree that the portable throwaway filters are a waste. The membrane can't be too bad though, my well water is 525 TDS and I'm getting 25 on the RO output. 96% reject. I'm totally satisfied with that for $125 shipped. I got the five stage RO system with 3 gallon pressure tank.
 
r8rphan said:
yeah, you're probably right on the quality aspect.... I 'could' use my existing filter housing (I bought to filter beer) and put a 1 micron filter in it before the system, 'if' that's the only issue...

The killer for me with the buckeye systems is the $40 shipping... That puts them in the 'ouch' category...

I wonder if there is someplace local that I can go to and just buy what I need at a similar price point to the buckeye stuff...
Click to expand...

Give us a call and we'll take a look at that shipping...

If you're looking to minimize costs we'd never recommend that system above with the inline filters. We've been asked over the years to make a system like that, and we could as we have all the pieces and parts in the shop, but the long term operation cost on that configuration make it a non-starter...

Russ
 
Russ...

I talked to you after my last post and ordered a system,, It arrived yesterday and I installed it this morning...

Filling the keggle now with it...

There's some rust in the keggle and I'm hoping the acidic water (plus a little scrubbing) will reactivate the Stainless steel coating... So, instead of the three gallons you guys said to run through it first, I'm gonna run 13 through it and let it sit for a while... If that doesn't do it, I bought some "Barkeeper's Friend" to get it done..

I gotta replace that little brass adapter you see before the cam lock connected to the SS ball valve going into the keggle with a nylon one I have....

and with 'that' my system is essentially ready to brew!
:ban:

RO-Filter-01.jpg


brewery-01.jpg
 
Using the TDS meter, the water coming from my faucets is 39ppm... The water coming from the RO filter is 4ppm....

In the two hours I've been filling the keggle, there's just over 8 gallons produced
 

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