Thermal wire RIMS tube

[augiedoggy]

Haha I didn't say HERMs! What I really want is a low volume, high surface area, high power RIMs. Like what I drew above! Can you make it and send it over for me?

sounds essentially like how a tankless hot water heater works...

 

[BrunDog]

Yes exactly. I wrapped stainless wire around my RIMs element. This helps create turbulence and transfers some heat off the element. It actually works great so I don't know why I am chasing something better. Maybe because better is better?

 

[cod3ck]

Sounds maybe like a false bottom problem or the wrong size rims element if your having those issues. I have experienced scorching with my first 800w rims and it was due to the way I designed it and how I had it mounted allowing a trapped air pocket at the base of the element... having used Herms first, I will never go back.

Thanks for the tip OP and augiedoggy! Just ordered 8' of 627 Watt/120 V high temp heat tape. Super stoked to try this out!

I'll keep you guys posted!

 

[cod3ck]

@Weezy What batch size(s) have you tested this against so far?

 

[thekraken]

Haha I didn't say HERMs! What I really want is a low volume, high surface area, high power RIMs. Like what I drew above! Can you make it and send it over for me?

I can't fabricate stainless to well but I could help you with those sketchup drawings, that's my jam

 

[BrunDog]

I can't fabricate stainless to well but I could help you with those sketchup drawings, that's my jam

Thanks. Used SolidWorks for years... don't currently have a license. Downloaded SketchUp and it just doesn't speak my language, making everything lines and faces rather than solids.

Anyway, I think this is really do-able. In my system I use a relay to switch between 120V and 240V... with 4x heaters it might be more practical to use one heater for mash temp control, then turn on all four for sparge heating...

I may try to source a heater and test it. If I wanted to use the Norcal thrifty tube, it is a specific heater that will fit. Otherwise, I can do something longer with the tube, but damn these sanitary tubes are expensive for long lengths.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes exactly. I wrapped stainless wire around my RIMs element. This helps create turbulence and transfers some heat off the element. It actually works great so I don't know why I am chasing something better. Maybe because better is better?

This was one of the reasons I installed my siteglass to create turbulence. I tried making a spiral baffle but it didnt work well with my system for pulling the element out for cleaning. I'm going to try your wire idea although I think it might create more to have to clean with wort since now the I really only have to rinse it with water and occasional pbw. my setup works well too but as you say better is better and I love making improvements.. I actually have a second 36" 1800w element that I might use to double my rims power and length just for faster step mashing.

 

[cod3ck]

Just had another thought on this design (vs. HERMS) -- not sure if it's right or not:

From what I've read, the greatest (and maybe only) advantage to a HERMS system is you're not direct firing the wort.

With this twRIMS design, we're also technically not direct firing the wort, but since there is no temp limitation (water in a HERMS setup has to eventually boil and evaporate), can't this still be considered a "direct fire" approach?

If so, aren't all the concerns of a standard RIMS setup still valid w/ twRIMS?

I'm definitely not knocking this idea, I actually love it! Just trying to understand the pros and cons of what I'm getting myself into [emoji12]

 

[cod3ck]

Just had another thought on this design (vs. HERMS) -- not sure if it's right or not:

From what I've read, the greatest (and maybe only) advantage to a HERMS system is you're not direct firing the wort.

With this twRIMS design, we're also technically not direct firing the wort, but since there is no temp limitation (water in a HERMS setup has to eventually boil and evaporate), can't this still be considered a "direct fire" approach?

If so, aren't all the concerns of a standard RIMS setup still valid w/ twRIMS?

I'm definitely not knocking this idea, I actually love it! Just trying to understand the pros and cons of what I'm getting myself into [emoji12]

In an effort to not waste anyone's time, I wanted to double back on this and share an older thread I stumbled across:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=458429

I'm still reading but figured it'd be helpful to post here as well!

If anyone has more follow up though -- please do!!! [emoji482]

 

[augiedoggy]

Just had another thought on this design (vs. HERMS) -- not sure if it's right or not:

From what I've read, the greatest (and maybe only) advantage to a HERMS system is you're not direct firing the wort.

With this twRIMS design, we're also technically not direct firing the wort, but since there is no temp limitation (water in a HERMS setup has to eventually boil and evaporate), can't this still be considered a "direct fire" approach?

If so, aren't all the concerns of a standard RIMS setup still valid w/ twRIMS?

I'm definitely not knocking this idea, I actually love it! Just trying to understand the pros and cons of what I'm getting myself into [emoji12]

Its still a rims in every sense... The watt density is just lower this way, and the heat is coming from the outside of the pipe rather than inside a smaller diameter pipe (heating element) inside a larger diameter tube...

The real advantage here is a very low watt density.. This is what I also accomplished with my 36" long 5/8 diameter 1800w element as well the heat is spread out over such a large surface area theres no chance of scorching or denaturing enzymes.. also the longer path and contact time with the heat on each pass allows the temp to fully equalize.. kind of like the advantages of a 50ft immersion chiller vs a 20ft one.

 

[BrunDog]

HERMS is archaic to me. Not sure where "direct fire" got a bad rap. Think about it. With HERMs you heat liquid to heat liquid. With RIMs you head liquid. Pretty clear which makes more sense.

AD's design is technically best IMO. Good power properly transferred. I can't personally employ it but I also can't help but think if the big vendors here had a similar solution, HERMs would suffer the fate it deserves (death). Again, my opinion.

 

[Spazdog]

Would not copper be the better choice? 401 W/(m K) for copper vs 16 W/(m K) for stainless.
That 25 times better thermal conductivity!
Yes stainless is easier to clean but its a straight length of tubing and cleaning should not be that big an issue
I'm was surprised to stumble across this thread as I'm looking to do something similar to this. Great thread.

 

[Weezy]

Would not copper be the better choice? 401 W/(m K) for copper vs 16 W/(m K) for stainless.
That 25 times better thermal conductivity!
Yes stainless is easier to clean but its a straight length of tubing and cleaning should not be that big an issue
I'm was surprised to stumble across this thread as I'm looking to do something similar to this. Great thread.

Copper better than stainless? Absolutely. SS might be cheaper, tho, and it'll make the LODO people happy too.

 

[augiedoggy]

My first rims was copper... It was a bitch to keep clean.

 

[Weezy]

My first rims was copper... It was a bitch to keep clean.

I could see that, but this is nothing more than straight tube. Recirculating warm pbw is plenty.

 

[augiedoggy]

I could see that, but this is nothing more than straight tube. Recirculating warm pbw is plenty.

I assumed there would be a tee at least at one end with a temp probe but I see your point.

 

[BrunDog]

Copper.... booo!!

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

Everything old is new again, search for 'external rims' that should garner some hits. Here's the one I've been using for years 1200 ish watts 1/2" stainless tubing 36" I think, I bent it into a U shape. Still working like a champ.

View attachment 1491963066236.jpg

 

[Weezy]

Apologies man! I can ask Yooper to delete this thread if you like.

 

[BGHSmt7]

Please don't.

I've been designing my electric brewery and I'm thinking about going with something like your RIMS tube. I never would've known about the heat rope without this thread.

 

[thekraken]

Burn it!

 

[Spazdog]

I agree.. Why would you delete it..???
Gave me all kinds of ideas and took me to the Iherms thread ( I never knew what a band heater was ).
I was working on a tube based on induction heating but kinda ran into a dead end not being able to find 420 stainless ( Ferritic Stainless ) tubing... At least cheaply.. I'm still toying with it maybe using round 420 bar stock.

Thanks for posting

 

[Weezy]

I was being facetious guys

There's always room around here to rediscover and rework old subjects. And there's nothing wrong with people pointing out their similar work from before either.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

As was stated, some have been doing an external Rims (eRims?) for quite some time. On my old system I had 3/4" copper pipe for recirc, and I used band heaters for the heat source on the exterior of the pipe. They performed flawlessly.

I have been building a new system now for 2+ years (but not done yet), and will once again be using band heaters.

Band heaters are great because they come in a variety of ID and watts/voltages and if you shop around, you can find them very inexpensive on ebay. My first time using them I picked up 8 x 300w heaters for $32 shipped. Pretty cheap eRims in my book.

I highly recommend this style of Rims-- I personally cannot think of, nor did I ever experience, a drawback. Easy cleaning, cheap, easy to procure/install, stable temps, step mashing is easy, no scorching, etc...

Unfortunately I have no pics of my old set-up on copper pipe, but here is a mock-up pic for my new system (new system piping is 1" sanitary tubing).

 

[Weezy]

Dug out the cooler for mashing, until I buy a new second pot.

Costing this out..maybe $125 for everything, including pump and itc308 controller.