Thermal wire RIMS tube

[Weezy]

I have a couple thermal wires, and have had for years. One is liked 932 Watts. The other is 260 Watts. When plugged into 110v, both get to the 290-320°F range. They're rated to like 1,400°F before they'd burn.

One of my induction cookers died so I pulled them back out to play with. I decided a use for both, this is the first I'll post about. The first is a RIMs tube using the 260W wire. made out of a short piece of copper, a 2" diameter piece of PVC pipe, two matching end caps, and some insulation for the wire. The insulation is ceramic blanket stuff, 1" thick, for wood stoves (rated to like 2,200°F).

Assembly was dreadfully simple. Wrap the wire tightly around the copper. Cut the PVC and insulation to be a little longer than the length of the wrapped wire. Drill holes in the end caps. Cut slots along end of tube to allow the plug wires to sneak out between the end cap and end of pipe.

The finished product that took about 20 minutes to make:

At 260W it does a surprising good job of maintaining mash temps (with the 930W one you could step mash). And at 260W (2.1 amps) you could use anything to control the temp. And the best part about thermal wires???? No wort touching the heating element and stupid easy to clean.

 

[Owly055]

I've been wondering when someone would so something sensible like this ;-) BRAVO!!


H.W.

 

[IslandLizard]

Looks so simple... almost too simple, and maybe therefore scary.

Shouldn't there be a grounded wire attached to the copper pipe?

Is there anything that prevents the tightly wrapped heating wire from unwrapping over time?

What happens when liquid enters the insulation space?

 

[BrunDog]

This is a cool idea. Similar to the iRIMS created by trimixdiver, just using wires (he used band heaters). I have been dying to do something like it and get away from the heating element inside the wort path, but I need to transfer 5kW minimum to sparge on the fly, so I haven't figured that out practically yet. Same reason I haven't gone cartridge heater design like augiedoggy.

 

[rudylyon57]

I love the creativity found in our home brewer community. Nice job.

 

[Weezy]

Thanks gang!

The 930W is getting direct wrapped to the outside of the mash tun! (That's where it was years ago. I'm going back to that. It works very well and is a perfect setup for kettle souring as well as maintaining a very even mash temp).

Looks so simple... almost too simple, and maybe therefore scary.

Shouldn't there be a grounded wire attached to the copper pipe?

Is there anything that prevents the tightly wrapped heating wire from unwrapping over time?

What happens when liquid enters the insulation space?

No grounded wire required. This is exactly what the product was designed to do.. heat pipes!

These wires come with loose rope ties at each end to tie to pipe. I just used some electrical tape to hold it even tighter. I have high heat tape but didn't need it here. The electrical tape is beyond the heating part and is performing fine.

Liquid getting in? Silicone caulk the openings in the PVC. No liquid if getting in there. The liquid would just make a mesh, not cause a short.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have a couple thermal wires, and have had for years. One is liked 932 Watts. The other is 260 Watts. When plugged into 110v, both get to the 290-320°F range. They're rated to like 1,400°F before they'd burn.

One of my induction cookers died so I pulled them back out to play with. I decided a use for both, this is the first I'll post about. The first is a RIMs tube using the 260W wire. made out of a short piece of copper, a 2" diameter piece of PVC pipe, two matching end caps, and some insulation for the wire. The insulation is ceramic blanket stuff, 1" thick, for wood stoves (rated to like 2,200°F).

Assembly was dreadfully simple. Wrap the wire tightly around the copper. Cut the PVC and insulation to be a little longer than the length of the wrapped wire. Drill holes in the end caps. Cut slots along end of tube to allow the plug wires to sneak out between the end cap and end of pipe.

The finished product that took about 20 minutes to make:

At 260W it does a surprising good job of maintaining mash temps (with the 930W one you could step mash). And at 260W (2.1 amps) you could use anything to control the temp. And the best part about thermal wires???? No wort touching the heating element and stupid easy to clean.

Ive found the same thing with the long cartridge heaters... its the longer contact time with the length that matters more here than the wattage... I had an 800w rcopper rims that maintained the mash for 11 gallons fine... I just went up to the larger and much longer 42" long rims with 1800w 36" element to be able to step mash faster.

BTW trimdiver (another member here) did something like this a few years ago with external heater wraps on the outside of his rims tube as well.

 

[augiedoggy]

This is a cool idea. Similar to the iRIMS created by trimixdiver, just using wires (he used band heaters). I have been dying to do something like it and get away from the heating element inside the wort path, but I need to transfer 5kW minimum to sparge on the fly, so I haven't figured that out practically yet. Same reason I haven't gone cartridge heater design like augiedoggy.

lol see my post above I posted before reading this... scary how we both remembered and though of the same thing..

 

[augiedoggy]

I wonder how well regular heat tape wrapped around a long section of pipe would work? probably pretty well... my guess is it would be better in just about every way than a herms..

 

[BrunDog]

Everything is better than a HERMs. Whoops, did I just say that out loud?

 

[Weezy]

Yeah, hehe, HERMS imho is a hold over from gas burner heaters. You need a big pot to collect that heat and your want some sort of recirc temperature control for your wort, sooo, HERMS. Good idea at the time, but a bit behind the times in regards to scale and temp responsiveness.

 

[Jwin]

Looks good. But, why not stainless? Such a short tube length would be cheap. Also, wonder if doing a loop back(straight tube, 180turn, straight tube) and wrapping both those tubes, then insulating would yield better efficiency. Would double the wort contact time and possibly utilize a bit more energy.
Another option could be a counterflow type device with the heater wire encased within the inner tube and wort through the outer tube. Would add a lot more contact time. Now, funding that in stainless would be much greater.

 

[passedpawn]

This is a cool idea. Similar to the iRIMS created by trimixdiver, just using wires (he used band heaters). I have been dying to do something like it and get away from the heating element inside the wort path, but I need to transfer 5kW minimum to sparge on the fly, so I haven't figured that out practically yet. Same reason I haven't gone cartridge heater design like augiedoggy.

That one really stuck in my mind. I keep revisiting it.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks gang!

No grounded wire required. This is exactly what the product was designed to do.. heat pipes!

Yes, but pipes are all bonded to earth ground so if a wire by chance made contact with the pipe due to a fray, the breaker would trip. In this configuration, contact with the copper would just electrify and wait for someone to come along. I would feel way safer grounding the tube or at least use a GFCI outlet.

 

[BrunDog]

That one really stuck in my mind. I keep revisiting it.

Likewise. As I said though I can't get there without a boatload of them to get the power dissipation.

I have also contemplated something along the lines of Norcal's thrifty external tube, but with 4 (more or less) cartridge heaters mounted threaded to an end cap. Could easily get a lot of surface area and heat dissipation. Something like this (but the rods are cartridge heaters, not hollow tubes) the end cap is a TC end cap, drilled out 5x 1/2" NPT. This assembly would slide into a TC tube. BTW I really hate Sketchup!

 

[augiedoggy]

Likewise. As I said though I can't get there without a boatload of them to get the power dissipation.

I have also contemplated something along the lines of Norcal's thrifty external tube, but with 4 (more or less) cartridge heaters mounted threaded to an end cap. Could easily get a lot of surface area and heat dissipation. Something like this (but the rods are cartridge heaters, not hollow tubes) the end cap is a TC end cap, drilled out 5x 1/2" NPT. This assembly would slide into a TC tube. BTW I really hate Sketchup!

View attachment 394681

Not to take things off topic too far but what about configuring your rims piping in a zig /zag stacked and doubled up configuration of sorts and using like 4 long cartridge heaters so the travel path (and contact time) is 4 times longer? My thoughts are the longer path might work more effectively than just more heat in a more open area and shorter contact time.. think about it like a chiller design. From what I see, what you describe above is more like a standard rims only with a slightly longer element

this could be done with a wire wrap like the one the op used or perhaps something more powerful as well?

 

[Weezy]

Looks good. But, why not stainless? Such a short tube length would be cheap. Also, wonder if doing a loop back(straight tube, 180turn, straight tube) and wrapping both those tubes, then insulating would yield better efficiency. Would double the wort contact time and possibly utilize a bit more energy.
Another option could be a counterflow type device with the heater wire encased within the inner tube and wort through the outer tube. Would add a lot more contact time. Now, funding that in stainless would be much greater.

Why not stainless? You certainly could. I had the copper on hand. A stainless tube might be cheaper actually.

Doubling the tubes might make it worse as you'd have more wire not in contact with the either tube, as you wrapped from one to the other.

 

[BrunDog]

Agreed, that is what I was trying to demo above. The end cap shows holes which makes it confusing looking (I was going fast, not accurate).

Basically, take a TC endcap, drill and tap 4 3/8" NPT holes in it. No center hole (it wouldn't fit). Thread 4x 1/2" cartridge heaters in which are 12" long. Watlow makes this model, 1.5kW each. Slide that assembly into Norcal's thrifty RIMs tube. Good to go.

Only problem is this specific heater is like $60 so this solution is about $300.

 

[Weezy]

Yes, but pipes are all bonded to earth ground so if a wire by chance made contact with the pipe due to a fray, the breaker would trip. In this configuration, contact with the copper would just electrify and wait for someone to come along. I would feel way safer grounding the tube or at least use a GFCI outlet.

I'd hoped a gfci would go without saying.

These things are just linear resistors. The plug is actually separable. The positive is at one end. The neutral is at the other end. They're connected together once installed. Path of least resistance is through the wire. The likelihood of an imobile, unexposed, industrial grade, heavy duty polyester sheathed, wire grounding to the pipe is certainly not on my radar as a practical concern. They have silicone encased ones for the squeamish. http://www.omega.com/pptst/SRFR_SRFG.html. 1" wide and however long you need for the power you want would wrap longways nicely on tube

 

[Weezy]

Agreed, that is what I was trying to demo above. The end cap shows holes which makes it confusing looking (I was going fast, not accurate).

Basically, take a TC endcap, drill and tap 4 3/8" NPT holes in it. No center hole (it wouldn't fit). Thread 4x 1/2" cartridge heaters in which are 12" long. Watlow makes this model, 1.5kW each. Slide that assembly into Norcal's thrifty RIMs tube. Good to go.

Only problem is this specific heater is like $60 so this solution is about $300.

$300 really doesn't sound that bad for the energy you're talking.

 

[cod3ck]

Wow... I was literally just about to upgrade to a HERMS system (because of the direct and dry fire issues w/ RIMS).

Where do I get my hands on this kind of wire?!

 

[NeoBrew]

I have a couple thermal wires, and have had for years. One is liked 932 Watts. The other is 260 Watts. When plugged into 110v, both get to the 290-320°F range. They're rated to like 1,400°F before they'd burn.

Do you have a source you can share for these? Or maybe a brand/model we can use to find one?

 

[Weezy]

Do you have a source you can share for these? Or maybe a brand/model we can use to find one?

http://www.omega.com/section/flexible-heaters.html

What I'm doing here is effectively safe, fellas, but Bobby is right. Look at the silicone stuff. 1" wide stuff will wrap longways over tubing nicely. They also have the big rectangular and round pads if you wanted to line the outside of your pot.

 

[nealm]

Yes, but pipes are all bonded to earth ground so if a wire by chance made contact with the pipe due to a fray, the breaker would trip. In this configuration, contact with the copper would just electrify and wait for someone to come along. I would feel way safer grounding the tube or at least use a GFCI outlet.

The simplest solution would be to bring a third "green" wire attached to the copper pipe with a grounding clamp.

 

[Owly055]

The simplest solution would be to bring a third "green" wire attached to the copper pipe with a grounding clamp.

I second this!! You know about me and grounds by now ;-)

H.W.

 

[BrunDog]

Grounding is soooooo overrated.

 

[cod3ck]

Anyone have a good recommendation on a build thread for integrating something like this into an enclosure?

I'm thinking 3 vessel, 10 gallon batches, w/ step mash capability

 

[thekraken]

This is a cool idea. ... I have been dying to do something like it and get away from the heating element inside the wort path...

*cough* RIMS HERMS hybrid *cough* jk

 

[BrunDog]

Haha I didn't say HERMs! What I really want is a low volume, high surface area, high power RIMs. Like what I drew above! Can you make it and send it over for me?

 

[augiedoggy]

Wow... I was literally just about to upgrade to a HERMS system (because of the direct and dry fire issues w/ RIMS).

Where do I get my hands on this kind of wire?!

Sounds maybe like a false bottom problem or the wrong size rims element if your having those issues. I have experienced scorching with my first 800w rims and it was due to the way I designed it and how I had it mounted allowing a trapped air pocket at the base of the element... having used Herms first, I will never go back.

 

[augiedoggy]

Haha I didn't say HERMs! What I really want is a low volume, high surface area, high power RIMs. Like what I drew above! Can you make it and send it over for me?

sounds essentially like how a tankless hot water heater works...

 

[BrunDog]

Yes exactly. I wrapped stainless wire around my RIMs element. This helps create turbulence and transfers some heat off the element. It actually works great so I don't know why I am chasing something better. Maybe because better is better?

 

[cod3ck]

Sounds maybe like a false bottom problem or the wrong size rims element if your having those issues. I have experienced scorching with my first 800w rims and it was due to the way I designed it and how I had it mounted allowing a trapped air pocket at the base of the element... having used Herms first, I will never go back.

Thanks for the tip OP and augiedoggy! Just ordered 8' of 627 Watt/120 V high temp heat tape. Super stoked to try this out!

I'll keep you guys posted!

 

[cod3ck]

@Weezy What batch size(s) have you tested this against so far?

 

[thekraken]

Haha I didn't say HERMs! What I really want is a low volume, high surface area, high power RIMs. Like what I drew above! Can you make it and send it over for me?

I can't fabricate stainless to well but I could help you with those sketchup drawings, that's my jam

 

[BrunDog]

I can't fabricate stainless to well but I could help you with those sketchup drawings, that's my jam

Thanks. Used SolidWorks for years... don't currently have a license. Downloaded SketchUp and it just doesn't speak my language, making everything lines and faces rather than solids.

Anyway, I think this is really do-able. In my system I use a relay to switch between 120V and 240V... with 4x heaters it might be more practical to use one heater for mash temp control, then turn on all four for sparge heating...

I may try to source a heater and test it. If I wanted to use the Norcal thrifty tube, it is a specific heater that will fit. Otherwise, I can do something longer with the tube, but damn these sanitary tubes are expensive for long lengths.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes exactly. I wrapped stainless wire around my RIMs element. This helps create turbulence and transfers some heat off the element. It actually works great so I don't know why I am chasing something better. Maybe because better is better?

This was one of the reasons I installed my siteglass to create turbulence. I tried making a spiral baffle but it didnt work well with my system for pulling the element out for cleaning. I'm going to try your wire idea although I think it might create more to have to clean with wort since now the I really only have to rinse it with water and occasional pbw. my setup works well too but as you say better is better and I love making improvements.. I actually have a second 36" 1800w element that I might use to double my rims power and length just for faster step mashing.

 

[cod3ck]

Just had another thought on this design (vs. HERMS) -- not sure if it's right or not:

From what I've read, the greatest (and maybe only) advantage to a HERMS system is you're not direct firing the wort.

With this twRIMS design, we're also technically not direct firing the wort, but since there is no temp limitation (water in a HERMS setup has to eventually boil and evaporate), can't this still be considered a "direct fire" approach?

If so, aren't all the concerns of a standard RIMS setup still valid w/ twRIMS?

I'm definitely not knocking this idea, I actually love it! Just trying to understand the pros and cons of what I'm getting myself into [emoji12]

 

[cod3ck]

Just had another thought on this design (vs. HERMS) -- not sure if it's right or not:

From what I've read, the greatest (and maybe only) advantage to a HERMS system is you're not direct firing the wort.

With this twRIMS design, we're also technically not direct firing the wort, but since there is no temp limitation (water in a HERMS setup has to eventually boil and evaporate), can't this still be considered a "direct fire" approach?

If so, aren't all the concerns of a standard RIMS setup still valid w/ twRIMS?

I'm definitely not knocking this idea, I actually love it! Just trying to understand the pros and cons of what I'm getting myself into [emoji12]

In an effort to not waste anyone's time, I wanted to double back on this and share an older thread I stumbled across:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=458429

I'm still reading but figured it'd be helpful to post here as well!

If anyone has more follow up though -- please do!!! [emoji482]

 

[augiedoggy]

Just had another thought on this design (vs. HERMS) -- not sure if it's right or not:

From what I've read, the greatest (and maybe only) advantage to a HERMS system is you're not direct firing the wort.

With this twRIMS design, we're also technically not direct firing the wort, but since there is no temp limitation (water in a HERMS setup has to eventually boil and evaporate), can't this still be considered a "direct fire" approach?

If so, aren't all the concerns of a standard RIMS setup still valid w/ twRIMS?

I'm definitely not knocking this idea, I actually love it! Just trying to understand the pros and cons of what I'm getting myself into [emoji12]

Its still a rims in every sense... The watt density is just lower this way, and the heat is coming from the outside of the pipe rather than inside a smaller diameter pipe (heating element) inside a larger diameter tube...

The real advantage here is a very low watt density.. This is what I also accomplished with my 36" long 5/8 diameter 1800w element as well the heat is spread out over such a large surface area theres no chance of scorching or denaturing enzymes.. also the longer path and contact time with the heat on each pass allows the temp to fully equalize.. kind of like the advantages of a 50ft immersion chiller vs a 20ft one.