the Yeastie Boyz

[Brewpastor]

Alright, let us see where this one goes.

Yeast.

What do you use? How many generations do you use it? Do you do anything to it other then pouring more beer on it?

Myself, I use yeast for about five generations, depending on how it is working, looking and smelling. I also don't reuse yeasts after they have been in a big beer, like a Double Bock or Barley Wine.

Because I have connicals I can get a pretty clean harvest and could go longer but generally I am wanting to shift to some other style and so out it goes.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I think 5 generations is the most I've gone, but mostly because I didn't brew enough consecutive batches before I felt like the latest generation had been sitting too long (1056, of course). I'm less worried about mutation/stress than I am the yeast just sitting too long to be really viable, but maybe I just haven't been bitten yet.

I mentioned in another thread to today that Warner indicates in German Wheat Beers that hefeweizen brewers will top crop the yeast and use it hundreds of times. Apparently the open fermenters reduce the odds of mutation or yeast stress. He says in closed fermenters they go no more than 10 generations.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I've used 4 generations.

After washing and dividing, I have used my second generation for 10-12 batches.

 

[Sasquatch]

I'm currently working out what happens with ale yeasts at the bottom end of their fermenting spectrum, and how it compares with lager yeasts. Given my understanding that just about all the yeasts we have access to today are bottom-fermenters, I find the "ale-strain" vs "lager-strain" thing kind of odd. One of the things I'm doing is running two identical worts, one in a lager vessel, with the Wyeast Budvar strain, and one with dry Cooper's brewing yeast, with an ambient temperature of about 17 C, so on the cool end of that yeast's operating range. Time will tell.

Anyone played with the Nottingham yeast for "lagers"? I just did a pilsner with it and I'm pretty impressed with the crispness of the beer, and with the lack of "aley" fruitiness. That Nottingham is pretty clean.

 

[Radarbrew]

Okay, you can re-use yeast? How does that happen, or if too long an answer , a good place to read up on that.

 

[RichBrewer]

I've harvested my Wyeast 1056 three times and have used it in two brews. Seems to work really well.
I was wondering myself how many brews I can get.

 

[Lou]

here's a good thread to read -- with some good links in one of hb_99's posts on the second page...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2605&highlight=washing+yeast

 

[Glibbidy]

5 is the magic number. Then things start to get freaky!:fro:

 

[Kaiser]

I feel comfortable to reuse yeast for about 5 times. Then the cost has dropped to about a $1 per batch and I don't risk to much mutation or other yeast reuse problems.

Commercial brewers howerver can easily reuse their yeast 20-50 times. This is possible because the yeast always stays active: done with one batch, here comes another one. Harvesting a fairly clean yeast from a conical also helps with this.

One of the reuse challenges that the average home brewer is faced with is the storage of yeast. I store about 4-6oz of yeast sediment in sanitized Mason jars. When I want to brew another batch with this yeast, I revitalize the yeast in a large and well aerated starter and pitch only the sediment. But since I'm not brewing the same style every other week, the yeast will have to stay dormant in the fridge for up to 4 or 6 weeks. This can't be good as the selection criteria for a yeast cell is not how well they ferment my wort, but how well they survive. and I don't know if the ones that are better survivers will also be better fermenters. That's why I limit myself to reusing yeast about 5 times if I cannot reuse yeast immediately.

This all changes if you have the ability to store your yeast on agar. In this case you can grow yourself a pure culture everytime you need it. But this also takes more wort and equipment and can easily offset the $1 for yeast/batch if you reuse 5-6 times.

In order to keep the storage times low for the yeast I also started asking other home brewers in my area to share yeast. This way you start pooling your yeast and can have a wider selection of fresh yeast w/o having to brew lots of differnt beers all the time.

Kai

 

[Brewpastor]

At the brewery we would use a yeast for many generations, but part of that was multi-batch brewing where we were pulling yeast off of working batches. We really never had a situation where we had to store yeast. Most of the time we would be yanking yeast out while it was stil very active. We also used conicals and so you could pull off the pure cream of yeast and leave the crap behind. Homebrewers don't often brew that much, and carboys are real handy on that score either.

 

[ian]

I currently have an IPA that's on the second generation. I saved the yeast from from that again (California Ale) to use again and again.

But, more to the point - a buddy of mine was talking with Tom from Thomas Creek Brewery in Greenville, SC who said that they have used a Califoria Ale yeast for 150 generations. 150?!? That sounded crazy. I don't have any more details than that so I don't know how complex their procedure is for saving/washing whatever. But, 150!

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

But, more to the point - a buddy of mine was talking with Tom from Thomas Creek Brewery in Greenville, SC who said that they have used a Califoria Ale yeast for 150 generations. 150?!? That sounded crazy. I don't have any more details than that so I don't know how complex their procedure is for saving/washing whatever. But, 150!

This is in line with what I was reading if the fermentors are open. If they're closed then that's a bit different.

I have read on other boards of brewers who never bought more yeast...just kept using the same strain dozens of times and never reported a problem.

Has anybody ever had one mutate? Does it just go off the deep end, or is it a gradual shift in the performance/characteristics of the yeast? I'm thinking as long as I can wake mine up with a starter I'll just keep on going in the interest of science and being cheap.

 

[user 574]

I've gone by the general rule of 3 generations deep but rarely do I keep multiplying my stock because of "shelf life" & storage space. Right now I have 3 - 1st generation yeast harvests sitting in my fridge. I usually get 3-4 bottles 1/2 filled (16oz flippies) per batch after a yeast wash.

WLP320 Amer Hefe - Harvest Date - 01/14/06
WLP002 English Ale - Harvest Date - 01/21/06
WLP001 CA Ale - Harvest Date - 03/27/06

I fancy the wlp002 yeast in my IPA and Porter so it gets fair use but is already concerning me of its age. I'm making "something" this weekend with the wlp002 but won't just use 1 bottle. I'll probably use two with a starter tonight on the wlp002 and plan something next weekend with the other two bottles but then again, I could go on top of the slurry & if so, I'll toss the older wlp002's. With the Amer Hefe which I don't brew that much but will in a couple weeks I'll do a big starter with all 3-4 bottles, or just toss the others.

I will save the 2nd generation from both of these yeast styles and probably launch the 1st generations because of age. This is where I primarily get to go into the 4-6 month window with 1 vial and get to 3 generations.

I brew 20-25 5g batches a year and don't switch out my yeast styles that much and still am tossing out yeast because of age. Not sure if it is bad yeast, just not going to trust it after 2-3 months.

 

[Kaiser]

150?!? That sounded crazy. I don't have any more details than that so I don't know how complex their procedure is for saving/washing whatever. But, 150!

This is what BrewPastor and I were talking about. Breweries can do this because they can keep the yeast busy and can harvest fairly clean yeast from their conicals.

Kai

 

[user 574]

Can someone expand on why conical yeast is cleaner? Is it heavier than the trub since you're getting it from the bottom of the fermenter?

 

[Brewpastor]

A couple things happen. First, with a conical you can remove cold break and trub as the fermentation is beginning so you have less sediment at the bottom. You can continue to draw other sediment off as you go as well. Second, the cone compacts the yeast and so you pull off more concentrated yeast. At times it is more like plaste. You can also pull off the bottom yeast, the first to settle out and toss it and thereby pull the center piece of the yeast bed.

I have always figured (just my theory) that one needs to be careful what yeast they utilize from a natural selection viewpoint. If you use the yeast that is first to settle you might be selecting cells that settle out too rapidly, Likewise, if you select those of top you might be doing the same for those that don't want to settle.

I quess that is getting too fusy, but it is the way I do things with my yeast harvesting.

 

[user 574]

Ah, got ya. Slightly but how often do you "remove" sediment in a conical during the course of the ferment?

I'd love to get conicals but I'd need your style BrewPastor (& cash!) that are temp controlled where I live. I got into this hobby from guys I know in Southern CA who live right near the ocean that have non temp controlled conicals but their ambient temp never gets above 70 or so at their house/garage .

 

[Brewpastor]

The desert Southwest is a little too varied for me to go al-natural.

As for drawing off, I rarely do anything after the first day. Then when It has settled into the same cycle that you would put it into a secondary I draw of the yeast and adjust temp. Then I will sometimes later drop the temp again and run my lagering phase, or raise it if I need a diacytal rest, it is important not to remove all the yeast because it has a role in lagering and diacytal reduction.

 

[Kaiser]

Then I will sometimes later drop the temp again and run my lagering phase, or raise it if I need a diacytal rest, it is important not to remove all the yeast because it has a role in lagering and diacytal reduction.

wow, you even lager in those? I would be woried about tying them up for such a long time, especially since they are so expensive. Have you ever tried pressure secondary fermentation in a corny keg?

Kai

 

[Brewsmith]

I'd love to get conicals but I'd need your style BrewPastor (& cash!) that are temp controlled where I live. I got into this hobby from guys I know in Southern CA who live right near the ocean that have non temp controlled conicals but their ambient temp never gets above 70 or so at their house/garage .

Except for a stretch from January-March, that has been the case this year. When the ambient temp hit 55 I moved the fermenter out of the closet to make my steam beer and CA doppel. I'm about ready for constant 70 again .

 

[Sasquatch]

Fact is, all the yeast we are using is 50000000000 th generation. So another 150 in good conditions doesn't seem ALL that out of line. But then again, I'm totally drunk.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Fact is..I'm totally drunk.

I know what you mean!!

 

[cowain]

I watched the Thirsty Traveler the other night when they were doing English Bitters and the brewery he went to said they had been using the same yeast since the brewery's inception in like 1730 or so. How many generations is that?