The Water Engine

[Unicorn_Platypus]

What he's got up right now is at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Thanks!

Couple questions for dark beers specifically. I'm brewing an imperial stout.

1) If I'm brewing a dark beer with significant amounts of roasted grain, will this sheet give me better PH prediction than Bru'n water? For the same grain bill on an 11 gallon batch (very soft NYC water) Bru'n Water is telling me to add 20g of baking soda to hit my mash PH of 5.5 vs. WaterTroubleshooter only saying 8g to acheive 5.5 PH

2) Watertroubleshooter doesn't seem to have a place to put my sparge water and calculate my final water profile. Would it be best to use Bru'n water to predict final water profile, but rely on Watertroubleshooter for more accurate PH?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks!

Couple questions for dark beers specifically. I'm brewing an imperial stout.

1) If I'm brewing a dark beer with significant amounts of roasted grain, will this sheet give me better PH prediction than Bru'n water? For the same grain bill on an 11 gallon batch (very soft NYC water) Bru'n Water is telling me to add 20g of baking soda to hit my mash PH of 5.5 vs. WaterTroubleshooter only saying 8g to acheive 5.5 PH

Only via making two identical batches, with one using each softwares baking soda recommendation, combined with careful mash pH measurement done 30 minutes into the mash, and with pH measured at room temperature and using proper procedures, can your answer (or just as likely, some other answer) be found.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Only by making two identical batches, with one using each softwares baking soda recommendation, combined with careful mash pH measurement done 30 minutes into the mash, and with pH measured at room temperature, can your answer (or just as likely, some other answer) be found.

Yeah... But what if i don't want to f*ck up my next batch?

I'm asking others based on their prior experience. I could obviously measure and test for the future but that won't do me much good for the next batch

Also, I've been having problems out of the box with the last two PH meters I bought and honestly don't feel like dealing with one as I'm beyond frustrated with them

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah... But what if i don't want to f*ck up my next batch?

I'm asking others based on their prior experience. I could obviously measure and test for the future but that won't do me much good for the next batch

You're recipe clearly lies in a deep color and deep roast/caramel/crystal malt rich region that has been seldom mash pH tested and verified using proper techniques. My guess is that insufficient valid mash pH testing evidence (evidence that is truly worth anything) exists for a recipe such as yours. And your problem is compounded by an army of faithful who will swear as to the validity of one of your chosen software packages to be dead on for all recipes, waters, mash thicknesses, etc..., without trust as to their intent or their methodology (if there is any) in being so faithful. I chalk it all up to confirmation bias. Or whim worship. Or the blind leading the blind. There is no other way for you to verify than to make and test.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This linked thread has reference as to the deepness of your dilemma:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/

I suggest that you read it in its entirety, avoiding the comments that are off topic.

If you care to only read one post within the linked thread, make it #44. I believe you can put some of the pieces together from only that post. Pay close attention to paragraph two therein.

 

[Robert65]

I have found no software that is regularly even close for most beers. (Trusting software against my conditioned instincts did in fact cause me to f*ck up a batch this past weekend, even worse than usual when trusting software, dump the mash, and reset for an emergency brew the next day.) All of these calculators are dead on sometimes, but so is the proverbial broken clock. No offense to any of their authors. But the only method I trust at this point is what I've relied on since long before software was available: Start with conventional wisdom/ old brewers' rules of thumb; brew and take notes; incrementally refine batch by batch. Which is exactly how that conventional wisdom/ rule of thumb was generated, but not, it seems, how algorithms will be developed. I trust that someday software will be adequate to the task, but it is not yet. Data points generated in threads like these may contribute to development, but there is a long road ahead, I fear. If it was going to be easy, these Science boards here on HBT would be thousands of pages shorter (and I'd never have been drawn in and joined HBT.) But I agree: brew, test, and learn is the only sure prescription here. Sorry, @Unicorn_Platypus, I know that's not what you want to hear. Those who are really in the trenches, best of luck and carry on. I'm rooting for you.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I have found no software that is regularly even close for most beers. (Trusting software against my conditioned instincts did in fact cause me to f*ck up a batch this past weekend, even worse than usual when trusting software, dump the mash, and reset for an emergency brew the next day.) All of these calculators are dead on sometimes, but so is the proverbial broken clock. No offense to any of their authors. But the only method I trust at this point is what I've relied on since long before software was available: Start with conventional wisdom/ old brewers' rules of thumb; brew and take notes; incrementally refine batch by batch. Which is exactly how that conventional wisdom/ rule of thumb was generated, but not, it seems, how algorithms will be developed. I trust that someday software will be adequate to the task, but it is not yet. Data points generated in threads like these may contribute to development, but there is a long road ahead, I fear. If it was going to be easy, these Science boards here on HBT would be thousands of pages shorter (and I'd never have been drawn in and joined HBT.) But I agree: brew, test, and learn is the only sure prescription here. Sorry, @Unicorn_Platypus, I know that's not what you want to hear. Those who are really in the trenches, best of luck and carry on. I'm rooting for you.

I'm trying to understand why identical grain bills and parameters entered into both spreadsheets yield drastically different predictions. Predictions that are not even in the same ballpark.

If any folks on here have specially brewed dark beers which software they had more success with.

For lighter beers both peices of software output quite similar results.

If all I can get are long winded answers then I'll shoot for somewhere in the middle and see how ot goes.

Was just asking for friendly advice based on experience.

 

[Robert65]

Was just asking for friendly advice based on experience.

Sorry, that's what I was trying to give. Yes, the same parameters entered into different calculators give wildly different predictions, and, IME, all are likely to be wrong to different degrees in different cases. All are based on different assumptions and none has the whole picture. I feel your frustration. That's why I trust practical experience and am stepping back from expecting the available software to be of real help. Again, sorry I can't be of any greater assistance.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Sorry, that's what I was trying to give. Yes, the same parameters entered into different calculators give wildly different predictions, and, IME, all are likely to be wrong to different degrees in different cases. All are based on different assumptions and none has the whole picture. I feel your frustration. That's why I trust practical experience and am stepping back from expecting the available software to be of real help. Again, sorry I can't be of any greater assistance.

Ok...guess we're all in a similar boat. I know you're trying to offer sound advice.

I'll report back after I brew this beast. Gonna shoot for closer to what brun water is predicting as it hasn't let me down yet.

If my new PH meter is more reliable than my last one I'll take a reading. But most import I'll report the tasting notes of the final product as that's what really matters.

I have a very discerning palate which will likely prove more useful than an unreliable PH meter.

Basically, I've been dissatisfied with all dark beers I've brewed to date. If I see an improvement from this water treatment and roast level that'll be a good reference point for the future.

This one has a very large proportion of roasted grain in the mashtun as I'm making up a decent amount of the remaining gravity with DME in the boil.

So it might not be so outrageous that the software is telling me to add such a hefty addition of bicarbonate.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How can your software of choice have never let you down once, while at the same time you admit that you have been dissatisfied with every dark beer you have ever brewed to date?

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

How can your software of choice have never let you down once, while at the same time you admit that you have been dissatisfied with every dark beer you have ever brewed to date?

I haven't brewed a very dark beer in many years because I felt my base water wasn't good for those styles. Back then I was using EZwater which did not suggest any additional alkalinity was needed. I basically tabled darker styles to focus on styles I knew would come out well with my base water.

Since then I've switched to Brun water, but haven't brewed anything darker than a brown ale. The various water spreadsheets don't yield drastically different results for lighter styles so this wasn't a point of contention. My lighter colored beers have never had an issue with the final product regardless of software as the recommendations on those are relatively consistent

This will be my first time adding alkalinity to any beer which is why I'm wary to use too much.

Are you trying to help me or troll me?

If someone from out of town asks you for directions on how to get from point A to B (pretend this is before everyone had a smart phone) do you give them advise on best route based on your experience? Or do you ask them to test out various routes by themselves, read your college thesis on the subject, then make an informed decision on their own.

If you've added alkinity to your water on several occasions you should at least be able to speak to your experience on how the final results tasted.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Are you trying to help me or troll me?

I've expended a lot of effort in helping you, and now I don't know if it's worth continuing, as you are clearly not reading what I'm offering to you as help, and you are doing worse than that in insulting me for attempting to help you. No one can even speculate as to your needs here since you have not told us anything concerning your recipe, your water, and your process. That said, even if we all knew to the N'th degree your specific recipe, water, and process details, I contend (yet again) that no one (including me, and I'm a mash pH software developer) knows if any of the currently available software (regardless of popularity, which is in itself irrelevant) will be able to assist you here. That such software may appear to reasonably mirror reality for the acidification of lighter colored beers is assuredly irrelevant to your pending brew.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've expended a lot of effort in helping you, and now I don't know if it's worth continuing, as you are clearly not reading what I'm offering to you as help, and you are doing worse than that in insulting me for attempting to help you. No one can even speculate as to your needs here since you have not told us anything concerning your recipe, your water, and your process. That said, even if we all knew to the N'th degree your specific recipe, water, and process details, I contend (yet again) that no one (including me, and I'm a mash pH software developer) knows if any of the currently available software (regardless of popularity, which is in itself irrelevant) will be able to assist you here. That such software may appear to reasonably mirror reality for the acidification of lighter colored beers is assuredly irrelevant to your pending brew.

I may have taken your previous post the wrong way. It's hard to read a person's tone over an internet post. I took it as you were trying to insult me, but maybe that wasn't your intention. So I apologize if that wasn't your intention and I took it the wrong way

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How about giving us (meaning here all forum members) all of the full details of your recipe, your water, and your process. If as you say your desire is to get from point A to point B, and you are asking for our help, but you have not told us anything about point A, then how are we expected to assist you in regard to getting you to point B?

I have given you the absolutely best advice I can give, which is first to brew 2 batches and apply to each the solution suggested by the two different softwares you mention, and second to carefully read in its entirety the thread titled "Will it mash at pH ~5.00" (which unfortunately is cluttered with much off topic confusion, so reading post #44 is key to understanding it). That said, if those of us who have made mash pH assistant software solutions are to offer our (highly untested and unconfirmed, and therefore unreliable as regards the specific case of unique conditions for brews such as the one which I envision you are about to undertake) best educated guess.

I suggest that you begin a new thread with your recipe details, as we are drifting far from the intent of this thread at this juncture. Or alternately, that you post your full recipe (etc...) details and your dilemma (I.E., your confusion as to why all of the available software seems to be all over the board as to its pH assistance advice for your specific recipe) to the "Will it mash at pH ~5.00" thread, as it would be a very good fit to the intent of that thread.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

How about giving us (meaning here all forum members) all of the full details of your recipe, your water, and your process. If as you say your desire is to get from point A to point B, and you are asking for our help, but you have not told us anything about point A, then how are we expected to assist you in regard to getting you to point B?

I have given you the absolutely best advice I can give, which is first to brew 2 batches and apply to each the solution suggested by the two different softwares you mention, and second to carefully read in its entirety the thread titled "Will it mash at pH ~5.00" (which unfortunately is cluttered with much off topic confusion, so reading post #44 is key to understanding it). That said, if those of us who have made mash pH assistant software solutions are to offer our (highly untested and unconfirmed, and therefore unreliable as regards the specific case of unique conditions for brews such as the one which I envision you are about to undertake) best educated guess.

I suggest that you begin a new thread with your recipe details, as we are drifting far from the intent of this thread at this juncture. Or alternately, that you post your full recipe (etc...) details and your dilemma (I.E., your confusion as to why all of the available software seems to be all over the board as to its pH assistance advice for your specific recipe), as it would be a very good fit to the intent of that thread.

Don't think its necessary at this point to post recipe at this juncture.

I altered my recipe a bit since the original post and now calculators (including "Mash Made Easy") are giving me much more similar results.

My original recipe had a large addition of 200-250L pale chocolate malt. I've replaced with standard 400-500L chocolate malt and reduced the amount to achieve similar SRM. Bru'n water didn't seem to adjust based on Lovibond so was giving me a higher suggested amount of baking soda than other calculators which is why it was telling me to use significantly more.

I'm gonna stick with this more simplified recipe and go from there. I ordered a new PH meter other folks on here suggested and I hope works accurately this time. I'll report back with results.

It might make an interesting experiment to do a split batch between the same amount of Pale Chocolate and Regular Chocolate in a recipe as this single variable causes a significant PH difference in some calculators, while others suggest to treat them the same.

Thanks again for your help

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Just don't get caught in the "confirmation bias (in one of its many forms)" trap of putting faith in calculators (mine assuredly included) above faith in your own ability to test and judge. And don't presume that averaging across the calculators will somehow improve things. The viewpoint that it will is another aspect of confirmation bias. And changing your recipe such as to minimize the discrepancies across the calculators is yet another form of confirmation bias. Many of such biases infer a belief (wish, desire, or whim) that in some way the software mirrors of mathematically presumed reality must be equal to or perhaps even superior to actual reality itself.

 

[Robert65]

@Unicorn_Platypus,

If you get a pH meter, you can do what I've always done with new and unfamiliar grain bills to dial in water treatment, and you will get actual results instead of prediction, and you don't have to risk a full batch: do a scale test. Break your proposed grain bill into percentages and you can easily prepare a 100g scale grist. Mash this into water similarly scaled and treated (it's easier to weigh out the fractional grams of minerals if you make up a gallon or so even though you won't use it all,) mash-in in a saucepan or soup thermos, and hold insulated (towels around the saucepan) for 15-30 minutes, and measure pH. Now you have a true guideline for what sort of pH that sort of grist will give and what sort of treatment will generally be required. Then you will know if one or another software product is more reliable in a given range of grists, or maybe you won't even need software, having empirically proven what works. HTH

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

@Unicorn_Platypus,

If you get a pH meter, you can do what I've always done with new and unfamiliar grain bills to dial in water treatment, and you will get actual results instead of prediction, and you don't have to risk a full batch: do a scale test. Break your proposed grain bill into percentages and you can easily prepare a 100g scale grist. Mash this into water similarly scaled and treated (it's easier to weigh out the fractional grams of minerals if you make up a gallon or so even though you won't use it all,) mash-in in a saucepan or soup thermos, and hold insulated (towels around the saucepan) for 15-30 minutes, and measure pH. Now you have a true guideline for what sort of pH that sort of grist will give and what sort of treatment will generally be required. Then you will know if one or another software product is more reliable in a given range of grists, or maybe you won't even need software, having empirically proven what works. HTH

Great suggestion! Thanks