The Water Engine

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I'm not sure I have everything entered correctly for my system, water, kettle, etc. It showed the pH for your entries when I pulled it up.
 
Ok, looks like it will work as long as I don't save it in ods format and just pull it up as an excel file. I'm still tweaking values so I'm not all the way done.
 
It's suddenly working fine again for me. I don't know what the original problem I had was. The only difference at my end is that I had moved everything over to a new/used lap top right before downloading 1.16. When I initially tried it it didn't work, then I remembered to set "Always Recalculate", and it still didn't work, but now it does. Perhaps it merely needed to go through a reboot after setting "Always Recalculate" to on?
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
It's suddenly working fine again for me. I don't know what the original problem I had was. The only difference at my end is that I had moved everything over to a new/used lap top right before downloading 1.16. When I initially tried it it didn't work, then I remembered to set "Always Recalculate", and it still didn't work, but now it does. Perhaps it merely needed to go through a reboot after setting "Always Recalculate" to on?
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what the issue is. The changes I made to get it working for you at all were from a Libre user from our home forum.

Add Linux to the mix and you are truly frontiersmen.

It’s designed to work in Excel and on Windows OS. Anything outside of that is anyone’s guess.

Let me know what you guys find.
 
FWIW. I was having problems in LibreOffice under Lixux getting the same #### values. For me the problem was the security settings restricting macros.

Menu
Tools -> Options ->LibreOffice -> Security -> Macro Security: Set to Medium

When the sheet is opened, just confirm enable macros.

After that the sheet has worked fine for me.
 
v1.18 is up.

I took some time and cleaned up the interface. My initial rollout was a rough draft and this version reflects what i wanted a little better.
 
It appears that the Malt Acid Type dropdown is not working (Columns E/F); the dropdown doesn't provide selection window.

Does the Water Volume calculation take into account expansion/contraction of the water from mash to boil to packaging?

What are the units for the Mash Tun Thermal Mass?

What does the thermodynamic constant represent and what are the units?

Thanks,

MT
 
MT_Keg said:
It appears that the Malt Acid Type dropdown is not working (Columns E/F); the dropdown doesn't provide selection window.

Does the Water Volume calculation take into account expansion/contraction of the water from mash to boil to packaging?

What are the units for the Mash Tun Thermal Mass?

What does the thermodynamic constant represent and what are the units?

Thanks,

MT
Click to expand...

Dropdown issue is fixed and new version uploaded.

The water correction stand-alone has a dropdown for temp selection. The main volume section doesn’t factor in expansion and contraction because it doesn’t matter for determining strike or HLT volume, i.e. cold water in = cold water put (strike -> fermenter).

Not sure on the thermal mass. It’s a direct lift from ProMash and unitless if I’m not mistaken. It is simply a system specific metric (a percentage really) that accounts for the temp lost to a “cold” vessel. Set to 0 it yields the results of the Palmer equation.

The thermo constant is a direct lift from Palmer’s strike equation which is a simplification of a more complex thermo equation. I believe it’s just a conversion factor from metric to standard.
 
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After much thought I have decided to take an extended hiatus from brewing and brewing related stuffs. I have edited The Brewing Engine and scaled it WAY back. Only essential functions have been kept and I have changed the structure to allow for user input of titration info and pH DI.

I have not brewed in some time and I am taking a break from daily dialogue about brewing. I will still be checking the forum weekly giving way to monthly and i'll try to help people get up to speed with this "Lite" version the best I can.

v1.19L, "The Brewing Engine Lite" is up.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
My brewing hiatus lasted around 18 years. I hope yours doesn't last nearly that long.
Click to expand...

There is so much good beer in my area on a regular basis that i may never come back. I've always been more fascinated with the mechanics of the process and the theory and science. When that starts to wane I find less and less of a reason to be involved.
 
RPIScotty said:
There is so much good beer in my area on a regular basis that i may never come back. I've always been more fascinated with the mechanics of the process and the theory and science. When that starts to wane I find less and less of a reason to be involved.
Click to expand...
I wish you well and offer my best wishes to you Derek as you transition. And thank you for the many contributions you have shared over the years. I look forward to hearing from you whenever you visit this forum.
 
Well, I couldn't sit idle for as long as I thought.

v.1.20 will be dropping next week. Preview:

upload_2019-6-7_12-42-48.png


The most noteworthy additions are the Kettle pH calculations and the yeast section. I also added the Sinamar calculator to the color section and revamped the formatting.
 
Paulaner said:
Looking good, can't wait to try it out!
Click to expand...

I’m excited about the potential for a real kettle pH calculation. Everything is tracking so far.

I’m hoping to get some input from A.J. privately to confirm some of my function work.
 
v1.20 is up.

Proceed with care when it comes to the Kettle pH calculations. I feel good about them but that's no reason to trust them blindly. Added some other features as well and reformatted.

Have at it.
 
RPIScotty said:
v1.20 is up.

Proceed with care when it comes to the Kettle pH calculations. I feel good about them but that's no reason to trust them blindly. Added some other features as well and reformatted.

Have at it.
Click to expand...
Just plugged by 2 - 10 gallon batches for the weekend in!! Thanks for the update!
 
MT_Keg said:
Just plugged by 2 - 10 gallon batches for the weekend in!! Thanks for the update!
Click to expand...

Just be cautious with the kettle acid and kettle pH estimates. Don’t trust them as gospel.

The calculations seems sound and are not producing outputs that seem odd but I would use a known source to check against.

I don’t want anyone wrecking a batch for R&D.
 
Found an important error in v1.20.

v1.21 is live now. Structure is the same so if you already entered recipes in v1.20 you should be able to unprotect the sheet and copy/paste.

Sorry for the inconvenience.
 
TBE will be down for maintenance for a few hours today.
 
The Brewing Engine is back up and running.

v1.22 is the current version. I fixed a major error in the acid calculations so I urge anyone using an older version to update.
 
RPIScotty said:
The Brewing Engine is back up and running.

v1.22 is the current version. I fixed a major error in the acid calculations so I urge anyone using an older version to update.
Click to expand...
I will have to investigate this... My helles came in at a pH of 5.13 (I was shooting for 5.4). It wasn't first time using Avangard pilsner malt so that might be part of the problem. Thanks for your hard work!

MT
 
MT_Keg said:
I will have to investigate this... My helles came in at a pH of 5.13 (I was shooting for 5.4). It wasn't first time using Avangard pilsner malt so that might be part of the problem. Thanks for your hard work!

MT
Click to expand...

PM me the batch details and i'll try and troubleshoot. I'm hoping the normality fix was the cause.
 
v1.23 is live. Minor fixes to interface and small fixes to background calcs.
 
Sheet is down for maintenance and troubleshooting.

Sorry for the inconvenience. I've put up the solver based deLange Troubleshooter in the interim. No bells and whistles but it can help to predict pH.
 
So I am going to have to have TBE down for a while. I've got some issues I need to verify before re-releasing it. In the interim, the modified version of A.J.'s Troubleshooter/Voltmeter is available again with both macro solver buttons and the QTotal and FindpHz functions. That way anyone should be able to get it to function.

upload_2019-6-21_15-2-31.png
 
RPIScotty said:
I asked the HBT admin staff to help me retire my old post:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-brewing-software.653060/



so that I could reintroduce a spreadsheet I've been working on. It's called "The Water Engine" and it's based on the background functions developed by A.J. deLange and incorporates my typical spreadsheet formatting and the Excel Solver. The Mass based and Percentage based grain input versions, along with help documents on enabling both the Excel Solver and Macros can be found here:

https://waterengine.yolasite.com/

The sheet is based in Metric, as all the background calculations are based in Metric, but i included a handy little conversion table in each sheet for people to use to convert the few important inputs needed from Standard to Metric.

I hope it turns out to be useful. Please report any issues you encounter directly to me. It is a simple sheet so any problems will be quick fixes i'm sure.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Looking forward to trying this.

What is the latest and greatest link to download the software? Having trouble with the link above
 
balrog said:
What he's got up right now is at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Couple questions for dark beers specifically. I'm brewing an imperial stout.

1) If I'm brewing a dark beer with significant amounts of roasted grain, will this sheet give me better PH prediction than Bru'n water? For the same grain bill on an 11 gallon batch (very soft NYC water) Bru'n Water is telling me to add 20g of baking soda to hit my mash PH of 5.5 vs. WaterTroubleshooter only saying 8g to acheive 5.5 PH

2) Watertroubleshooter doesn't seem to have a place to put my sparge water and calculate my final water profile. Would it be best to use Bru'n water to predict final water profile, but rely on Watertroubleshooter for more accurate PH?
 
Unicorn_Platypus said:
Thanks!

Couple questions for dark beers specifically. I'm brewing an imperial stout.

1) If I'm brewing a dark beer with significant amounts of roasted grain, will this sheet give me better PH prediction than Bru'n water? For the same grain bill on an 11 gallon batch (very soft NYC water) Bru'n Water is telling me to add 20g of baking soda to hit my mash PH of 5.5 vs. WaterTroubleshooter only saying 8g to acheive 5.5 PH
Click to expand...

Only via making two identical batches, with one using each softwares baking soda recommendation, combined with careful mash pH measurement done 30 minutes into the mash, and with pH measured at room temperature and using proper procedures, can your answer (or just as likely, some other answer) be found.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
Only by making two identical batches, with one using each softwares baking soda recommendation, combined with careful mash pH measurement done 30 minutes into the mash, and with pH measured at room temperature, can your answer (or just as likely, some other answer) be found.
Click to expand...

Yeah... But what if i don't want to f*ck up my next batch?

I'm asking others based on their prior experience. I could obviously measure and test for the future but that won't do me much good for the next batch

Also, I've been having problems out of the box with the last two PH meters I bought and honestly don't feel like dealing with one as I'm beyond frustrated with them
 
Unicorn_Platypus said:
Yeah... But what if i don't want to f*ck up my next batch?

I'm asking others based on their prior experience. I could obviously measure and test for the future but that won't do me much good for the next batch
Click to expand...

You're recipe clearly lies in a deep color and deep roast/caramel/crystal malt rich region that has been seldom mash pH tested and verified using proper techniques. My guess is that insufficient valid mash pH testing evidence (evidence that is truly worth anything) exists for a recipe such as yours. And your problem is compounded by an army of faithful who will swear as to the validity of one of your chosen software packages to be dead on for all recipes, waters, mash thicknesses, etc..., without trust as to their intent or their methodology (if there is any) in being so faithful. I chalk it all up to confirmation bias. Or whim worship. Or the blind leading the blind. There is no other way for you to verify than to make and test.
 
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This linked thread has reference as to the deepness of your dilemma:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/

I suggest that you read it in its entirety, avoiding the comments that are off topic.

If you care to only read one post within the linked thread, make it #44. I believe you can put some of the pieces together from only that post. Pay close attention to paragraph two therein.
 
I have found no software that is regularly even close for most beers. (Trusting software against my conditioned instincts did in fact cause me to f*ck up a batch this past weekend, even worse than usual when trusting software, dump the mash, and reset for an emergency brew the next day.) All of these calculators are dead on sometimes, but so is the proverbial broken clock. No offense to any of their authors. But the only method I trust at this point is what I've relied on since long before software was available: Start with conventional wisdom/ old brewers' rules of thumb; brew and take notes; incrementally refine batch by batch. Which is exactly how that conventional wisdom/ rule of thumb was generated, but not, it seems, how algorithms will be developed. I trust that someday software will be adequate to the task, but it is not yet. Data points generated in threads like these may contribute to development, but there is a long road ahead, I fear. If it was going to be easy, these Science boards here on HBT would be thousands of pages shorter (and I'd never have been drawn in and joined HBT.) But I agree: brew, test, and learn is the only sure prescription here. Sorry, @Unicorn_Platypus, I know that's not what you want to hear. Those who are really in the trenches, best of luck and carry on. I'm rooting for you.
 
Robert65 said:
I have found no software that is regularly even close for most beers. (Trusting software against my conditioned instincts did in fact cause me to f*ck up a batch this past weekend, even worse than usual when trusting software, dump the mash, and reset for an emergency brew the next day.) All of these calculators are dead on sometimes, but so is the proverbial broken clock. No offense to any of their authors. But the only method I trust at this point is what I've relied on since long before software was available: Start with conventional wisdom/ old brewers' rules of thumb; brew and take notes; incrementally refine batch by batch. Which is exactly how that conventional wisdom/ rule of thumb was generated, but not, it seems, how algorithms will be developed. I trust that someday software will be adequate to the task, but it is not yet. Data points generated in threads like these may contribute to development, but there is a long road ahead, I fear. If it was going to be easy, these Science boards here on HBT would be thousands of pages shorter (and I'd never have been drawn in and joined HBT.) But I agree: brew, test, and learn is the only sure prescription here. Sorry, @Unicorn_Platypus, I know that's not what you want to hear. Those who are really in the trenches, best of luck and carry on. I'm rooting for you.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to understand why identical grain bills and parameters entered into both spreadsheets yield drastically different predictions. Predictions that are not even in the same ballpark.

If any folks on here have specially brewed dark beers which software they had more success with.

For lighter beers both peices of software output quite similar results.

If all I can get are long winded answers then I'll shoot for somewhere in the middle and see how ot goes.

Was just asking for friendly advice based on experience.
 
Unicorn_Platypus said:
Was just asking for friendly advice based on experience.
Click to expand...

Sorry, that's what I was trying to give. Yes, the same parameters entered into different calculators give wildly different predictions, and, IME, all are likely to be wrong to different degrees in different cases. All are based on different assumptions and none has the whole picture. I feel your frustration. That's why I trust practical experience and am stepping back from expecting the available software to be of real help. Again, sorry I can't be of any greater assistance.
 
Robert65 said:
Sorry, that's what I was trying to give. Yes, the same parameters entered into different calculators give wildly different predictions, and, IME, all are likely to be wrong to different degrees in different cases. All are based on different assumptions and none has the whole picture. I feel your frustration. That's why I trust practical experience and am stepping back from expecting the available software to be of real help. Again, sorry I can't be of any greater assistance.
Click to expand...

Ok...guess we're all in a similar boat. I know you're trying to offer sound advice.

I'll report back after I brew this beast. Gonna shoot for closer to what brun water is predicting as it hasn't let me down yet.

If my new PH meter is more reliable than my last one I'll take a reading. But most import I'll report the tasting notes of the final product as that's what really matters.

I have a very discerning palate which will likely prove more useful than an unreliable PH meter.

Basically, I've been dissatisfied with all dark beers I've brewed to date. If I see an improvement from this water treatment and roast level that'll be a good reference point for the future.

This one has a very large proportion of roasted grain in the mashtun as I'm making up a decent amount of the remaining gravity with DME in the boil.

So it might not be so outrageous that the software is telling me to add such a hefty addition of bicarbonate.
 
How can your software of choice have never let you down once, while at the same time you admit that you have been dissatisfied with every dark beer you have ever brewed to date?
 

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