The untold mystery about sanitization....

[IslandLizard]

Explain it to NB and let me know what they say.

The description NB states no rinse. Feel free to advise NB their description is wrong and the mix is not sanitizing. Just a cleaner. I'm interested in the response.

Wouldn't you rather take advice from an experienced (home)brewer using products he recommends than from a salesman selling products he wants to sell?

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate kills bacteria correct? The endgame of sanitizing is to kill bacteria? If equipment is cleaned with hot water and possibly dish soap then rinsed, left to sit in sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate for a time it is not considered sanitized?

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

Wouldn't you rather take advice from an experienced (home)brewer using products he recommends than from a salesman selling products he wants to sell?

Absolutely, however if an outfit such as NB is pulling the wool then all should know. Seems irresponsible to sell a kit with a cleaner that may or may not cause poor beer brewing and possibly getting one sick. But, there appears to be a lot of brew kits sold over a large group of sellers all shipping sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate as a cleaner. Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is a known bacteria and alge killer. Unwanted bacteria in a fermenter is the desire correct? Nothing else in the kit described acid bathes. Rinsing, etc.

 

[lump42]

Hi all ,

There are many posts out there already covering parts about sanitization, but I still got some questions left behind unanswered...

For me, I really don't have a local brewing store anywhere near me, so there's a huge problem for me to get any decent sanitizers, is it okay for me to use ethanol or even bleach water to clean things? I've heard people saying using these will create some horrible left-behinds which might affect the brewing, but are there any better alternatives????

Also, is sanitization required only for good tasting beers? I mean being a not so classy beginner, getting alcohol is already satisfying enough for a first brew, but will the wild yeasts and bacterias affect overall the alcohol content? Or is not sanitizing just gonna give a bad taste and potentially some diseases

Lots of loveeee,
Etohmadness :3

Technically any surface sufficiently clean will be sanitized enough for brewing, but no rinse sanitizers are another layer of protections. For my first several batches in a little brown fermentor, I just washed with dish soap and really hot water, followed by a triple rinse with really hot water (near scalding). I use star san for extra assurances to an infection, because I put too much work in for bad tasting beer.

 

[govner1]

I mean I technically can but I am not sure how long does it take
but I just can't wait to start my first batch!!!! Perhaps this batch will be just for fun and experiments, I'll still make the batch anyway regardless of the taste haha
So is sanitizing with ethanol or hot water (the idea is to get rid of bacterias right?) better than not sanitizing at all?

And also, just for fun, can I brew a batch of 8%-9% using normal bread yeasts? xd
thanks for replying :333

I think your biggest issue is a lack of patience!
Two of the main tenets for successful brewing are cleanliness (use B-Brite or PBW) to remove particulates, then sanitation, ie, StarSan.
The amount of time needed is minimal and if you follow the recipe instructions and maintain good temperature control during fermentation you shine rewarded not only with the alcohol you seek but a tasty beer!

 

[Soulshine2]

This myth is alive and well apparently.

A no-rinse sanitizer can be made with bleach:
5 gallons water
Add 1oz distilled vinegar (5%)
Stir and then add 1oz bleach (around 8%)

The amount of chlorine is low enough that it does not need to be rinsed and will not cause off-flavors. Follow the links provided by @jtratcliff.

The procedure isn't as stringent as @Robert65 suggests, but it should be used in a well-ventilated area to avoid the possibility of inhaling chlorine gas.

"Impossible" is too strong of a word, but yes, you absolutely should use some kind of sanitizer rather than creating problems for yourself.


Bread yeast absolutely will make beer. Its attenuation will be similar to beer yeast and its alcohol tolerance is over 10% ABV.

Heat is arguably more effective than chemical sanitizers.

ok , you guys can go play around with boiling water to sanitize your stuff , risk 3rd degree burns to yourselves and I'll use what I use ,because I know it works and is safe.
Anybody else read the post last week by the guy who did boil everything,burnt his hands repeatedly then was trying to prime each bottle individually instead of priming the batch?
Lets use some common sense here with the newbies, shall we?.

 

[Soulshine2]

Louis Pasteur would like a word...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

notice I said HOT , not boiling.

 

[lanev]

Lets use some common sense here with the newbies, shall we?

Total noob here, but this is exactly why I'm here. Best practices to get me to make drinkable beer and then on to good beer. PBW and Starsan all day long. I have no interest in waiting for that much water to boil and then scalding myself in the process.

 

[Soulshine2]

Total noob here, but this is exactly why I'm here. Best practices to get me to make drinkable beer and then on to good beer. PBW and Starsan all day long. I have no interest in waiting for that much water to boil and then scalding myself in the process.

thats the exact point i was trying to make. some people took my statement out of context.
btw- I answered your other post about books . good luck to you !!

 

[khannon]

ok , you guys can go play around with boiling water to sanitize your stuff , risk 3rd degree burns to yourselves and I'll use what I use ,because I know it works and is safe.
Anybody else read the post last week by the guy who did boil everything,burnt his hands repeatedly then was trying to prime each bottle individually instead of priming the batch?
Lets use some common sense here with the newbies, shall we?.

The new person in question was stating that they did not have access to Star-San or some of the other things that we take for granted with free next-day shipping. I was pointing out that no-chill brewing and transferring boiling or near boiling wort to a fermenter that could handle the temps before letting it cool there to pitching temps does a pretty good job of killing *most* things that would cause problems.
The added bonus is that if you live in a place (much of the world) where water is scarce, you help to conserve some water in the chilling process.

 

[lump42]

The new person in question was stating that they did not have access to Star-San or some of the other things that we take for granted with free next-day shipping. I was pointing out that no-chill brewing and transferring boiling or near boiling wort to a fermenter that could handle the temps before letting it cool there to pitching temps does a pretty good job of killing *most* things that would cause problems.
The added bonus is that if you live in a place (much of the world) where water is scarce, you help to conserve some water in the chilling process.

I would still suggest that the no-chill container be cleaned thoroughly before hand. Heat can kill through grime, but it increases the time to kill. I'll still continue to argue that proper, thorough cleaning is more important than sanitation.

Edit to clarify: I still hold that sanitation is important, just secondary to any cleaning efforts.

 

[lump42]

This myth is alive and well apparently.

A no-rinse sanitizer can be made with bleach:
5 gallons water
Add 1oz distilled vinegar (5%)
Stir and then add 1oz bleach (around 8%)

The amount of chlorine is low enough that it does not need to be rinsed and will not cause off-flavors. Follow the links provided by @jtratcliff.

The procedure isn't as stringent as @Robert65 suggests, but it should be used in a well-ventilated area to avoid the possibility of inhaling chlorine gas.

"Impossible" is too strong of a word, but yes, you absolutely should use some kind of sanitizer rather than creating problems for yourself.


Bread yeast absolutely will make beer. Its attenuation will be similar to beer yeast and its alcohol tolerance is over 10% ABV.

Heat is arguably more effective than chemical sanitizers.

Here's a nice blog post, summarizing a Basic Brewing Radio Podcast interview with Charlie Talley of 5 Star Chemicals explaining how and why bleach/vinegar can be used to sanitize.

https://beerliever.com/bleach-no-rinse-sanitiser-home-brewing-beer/

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

This is not a sanitizer!!!!!

It must be followed by a water rinse, acid rinse, water rinse, and then sanitizer.

First the surface must be clean. Only then can it be sanitized.

I did approach NB concerning the cleanser and if it sanitizes as well. This was the response:


Thomas (Northern Brewer)

Feb 7, 12:05 CST

Good Morning,

One step is a sanitizer that uses the formation of Hydrogen Peroxide to sanitize equipment. After the initial batch the brewer can select which sanitizer they wish to use. Most will gravitate towards Star San or Iodophor as they are simple to use and remain effective for weeks versus use and it is done. Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.

Huzzah, Thomas C.

 

[RPh_Guy]

LOL, Iodophor doesn't stay effective for weeks.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thomas (Northern Brewer)

Feb 7, 12:05 CST

Good Morning,

One step is a sanitizer that uses the formation of Hydrogen Peroxide to sanitize equipment. After the initial batch the brewer can select which sanitizer they wish to use. Most will gravitate towards Star San or Iodophor as they are simple to use and remain effective for weeks versus use and it is done. Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.

'nuf sed!

 

[RPh_Guy]

you guys can go play around with boiling water to sanitize your stuff

How do you sanitize your brew kettle?

 

[khannon]

How do you sanitize your brew kettle?

Carefully..

 

[day_trippr]

A swing and a miss?

Cheers!

 

[Soulshine2]

How do you sanitize your brew kettle?

really??? is that a serious question?
it gets boiled but the wort is in it. after the boil and i'm done it gets washed out by hand.

 

[RPh_Guy]

is that a serious question?
it gets boiled but the wort is in it.

You sanitized it with hot liquid.

Hot water alone will not sanitize.

This statement was completely false and you obviously know it, so you shouldn't be surprised to get a little constructive feedback.

 

[Special Hops]

When I first started brewing I used bleach and rinsed well. At some point I picked up some PBW, not realizing that it is not a sanitizer. I brewed a bunch of batches with only using PBW to ‘sanitize’. Never noticed an issue.
Ultimately I realized what I was doing and switched to star-San.

 

[Soulshine2]

You sanitized it with hot liquid.

This statement was completely false and you obviously know it, so you shouldn't be surprised to get a little constructive feedback.

yeah ,ok, but to ask how I sanitize my bk knowing full well I'll be boiling the wort in it anyway??? when its done and empty it just gets rinsed and put away to drain. hot side is a given...hot water can mean anywhere from tap hot to 200 , boiling or pasteurization temps ...wide range. dont nit pick.

 

[khannon]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that cleaning(proper) needs to happen before any talk of sanitation(or not).
I also don't think that anyone is arguing that sanitation can happen at tap hot water temps.

Not to get all science-y.. but there is such a thing as

Pasteurisation Units
One pasteurization unit (PU) is the microorganism death that occurs in a product held at 60°C (140°F) for 1 minute. It was defined in 1951 by Del Vecchio et al,1 and is employed in rating the effectiveness of pasteurization processes for beer and other products.

The number of PU's required for a particular beverage depends on several factors, such as the microorganisms it contains and even on the type of packaging. “Wild” yeasts, for example, such as occur in some types of Belgian ales, are more resistant to heat than domestic yeasts. A survey of large American breweries in 1955 found their processes averaged 14.8 PU's, with a range of 2.4 to 45.6 PU's.

The success of pasteurization (that is, what percentage of the microorganisms are killed) is affected by both temperature and by the length of time for which the product is held at that temperature. It is a trade-off: high temperatures for short times or lower temperatures for longer times. Unfortunately, higher temperatures tend to affect the taste of the beverage.

The total number of PU's for a particular pasteurization process for beer can be estimated from :

PU = t × 1.393 (T − 60)
where T is the temperature in degrees Celsius and t is the time in minutes at which the beer is held at that temperature.

found at http://wiki.zero-emissions.at/index.php?title=Pasteurization_in_beer_production Also available other places.

Can you make good beer with only cleaning? Short answer maybe, Long answer, Yes, unless..
There are a lot of factors involved.. and it largely depends on what you have around that will spoil your beer.
I think that many were trying to share what could reduce the risk of infection in places where star-san is unavailable..

 

[jtratcliff]

notice I said HOT , not boiling.

doesn't have to boil to pasteurize...

 

[bracconiere]

Hi all ,

There are many posts out there already covering parts about sanitization, but I still got some questions left behind unanswered...

For me, I really don't have a local brewing store anywhere near me, so there's a huge problem for me to get any decent sanitizers, is it okay for me to use ethanol or even bleach water to clean things? I've heard people saying using these will create some horrible left-behinds which might affect the brewing, but are there any better alternatives????

Also, is sanitization required only for good tasting beers? I mean being a not so classy beginner, getting alcohol is already satisfying enough for a first brew, but will the wild yeasts and bacterias affect overall the alcohol content? Or is not sanitizing just gonna give a bad taste and potentially some diseases

Lots of loveeee,
Etohmadness :3

sorry didn't read the whole thread...but every time i try to clean and sanitize i get sour beer, when i just pasteurize, works out fine....all i do is rinse my fermenter, use it for my sparge water, and it works out good/all right, not sour.....

and judging from the last post i give my fermenter about 180-190f for 10 minutes.....basically until it cools to 170f or so....

just remember, don't try this in glass! lol

 

[lowtones84]

I did approach NB concerning the cleanser and if it sanitizes as well. This was the response:

Good Morning,

One step is a sanitizer that uses the formation of Hydrogen Peroxide to sanitize equipment. After the initial batch the brewer can select which sanitizer they wish to use. Most will gravitate towards Star San or Iodophor as they are simple to use and remain effective for weeks versus use and it is done. Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.

Huzzah, Thomas C.

I used only "one-step" for several batches before I knew any better and was completely fine. May or may not be a true sanitizer, but I think we all get a little worked up about this stuff sometimes. Of course cleanliness and sanitation are important, but I think we forget that brewers didn't always have star-san and iodophor throughout history, and historical accounts draw differences between sour and not sour beer, as well as description of presence of Brettanomyces or not, even before we really knew what it was.

Basically it goes back to one of my main philosophies in life: There's more than one way to skin a cat. Star-san and iodophor are very effective and convenient, but not completely necessary.

 

[Robert65]

I think we forget that brewers didn't always have star-san and iodophor throughout history

No, they used caustic soda for cleaning and fumigated everything with burning sulfur for good measure. Ah, the good old days. [emoji6]

 

[lowtones84]

No, they used caustic soda for cleaning and fumigated everything with burning sulfur for good measure. Ah, the good old days. [emoji6]

In some cases, yes. And I'm not here to say that it was a better way to do it or romanticize it, just that by and large they found methods that worked.

 

[RPh_Guy]

historical accounts draw differences between sour and not sour beer, as well as description of presence of Brettanomyces or not, even before we really knew what it was.

they found methods that worked.

Easy:
They drank the beer before the contaminants had too much of an effect.

 

[lowtones84]

Easy:
They drank the beer before the contaminants had too much of an effect.

Yeah, also part of it. As was ridiculous amounts of hops and high alcohol content in some cases.