The Science of Ice

[gstrawn]

When ice freezes it crystallizes, as we all know, this ruptures the cell membranes of bacteria. --- infectious disease management class.

While maybe not 100% true, ice should be relatively sterile

 

[MalFet]

When ice freezes it crystallizes, as we all know, this ruptures the cell membranes of bacteria. --- infectious disease management class.

While maybe not 100% true, ice should be relatively sterile

In my neck of the woods, frozen ice cream is a common vector for cholera, and I've personally gotten sick from contaminated ice. Ice is definitely not necessarily sterile or anywhere close to it.

 

[user 144271]

I think the discussion is focused mostly on people doing stovetop kits with a partial boil. Those people generally add cold water to make their final volume and ice would be more efficient in cooling the hot wort. Hot Side Aeration is not a problem.

People doing full boils have probably graduated to using some form of chiller.

I agree except I would say moved not graduated LOL

You're over thinking this a little. When chilling using ice additions I boiled down to 4 gallons of wort so I could add about 1.5 gallons of ice to bring it up to 5.5 gallons going into the fermenter. This plus a cold water bath in the sink would bring it down from boil to pitching temps in 15 minutes or less EVERY TIME. Did not matter if I was making a low gravity Belgian Wit or a DIPA. I've done this with boiled water and I've done it with store-bought spring water straight out of the bottle. Those Gladd/Ziploc containers have graduations on them so you know about how much ice you're making. It took a little experimenting + note taking but this is the method that worked for me. Just my $0.02.

This my point exactly.

 

[gstrawn]

In my neck of the woods, frozen ice cream is a common vector for cholera, and I've personally gotten sick from contaminated ice. Ice is definitely not necessarily sterile or anywhere close to it.

Not saying it IS sterile. Saying the freezing process sterilizes it. My carboy isn't sterile now but it was at one time. If handled correctly after sterilization (freezing) then it should be at reasonably sterie.

 

[Yooper]

Not saying it IS sterile. Saying the freezing process sterilizes it. My carboy isn't sterile now but it was at one time. If handled correctly after sterilization (freezing) then it should be at reasonably sterie.

No, that's not so.

I dare you to have a glass of ice in Mexico. Believe me, freezing does NOT sanitize/sterilize. In order for the ice to be safe, it has to be made with purified water.

Freezing may kill some bacteria, but certainly not all. If you freeze to 0 degrees, and hold it there for a length of time, you'd probably get most of them though not all. Most freezers aren't set at 0 degrees, although from a food safety standpoint they should be.

Freezing would inactivate all the bacteria, but not kill them. Once thawed, they'd be active again.

 

[MalFet]

Not saying it IS sterile. Saying the freezing process sterilizes it. My carboy isn't sterile now but it was at one time. If handled correctly after sterilization (freezing) then it should be at reasonably sterie.

I understand what you're saying, it's just not true.

Believe me, I've spent far, far more time thinking about what will make water safe to drink than any sane person should, and freezing doesn't do it. I've also frozen cultures without cryoprotectants and -- though you'll kill a lot of cells this way -- the kill rate is still three orders of magnitude away from sanitized, let alone sterile.

 

[Homercidal]

Like Sammy says,

I'm goin' way down south where the big blue agave grow
Takin' a weekend trip down to Baja, Mexico!
Where you can drink the water, but don't ya eat the ice
Take your vitamin T with salt and lemon slice

 

[user 144271]

I understand what you're saying, it's just not true.

Believe me, I've spent far, far more time thinking about what will make water safe to drink than any sane person should, and freezing doesn't do it. I've also frozen cultures without cryoprotectants and -- though you'll kill a lot of cells this way -- the kill rate is still three orders of magnitude away from sanitized, let alone sterile.

I work in the food industry and deal with this on a daily basis.
Freezing does not "sanitize" water. But it does reduce the risk. It is a very good hurdle and used in conjunction with other hurdles can be effective.
For example a glass of water with "Mexican ice" is a lot less safe to drink than
a glass of the same ice filled with tequila or adding the ice to something with low ph. or high in salt.

The question is not if it is sterile cause almost nothing is.
The question is, Is the risk reasonable.

 

[dcocch]

I thoroughly enjoy the "If you saw what I saw when I cleaned _________ You would never eat/drink/go in __________ ever again." I'll just never touch or do anything ever again! Everything is dirty, everything has bacteria, everything causes cancer...

 

[MalFet]

I work in the food industry and deal with this on a daily basis.
Freezing does not "sanitize" water. But it does reduce the risk. It is a very good hurdle and used in conjunction with other hurdles can be effective.
For example a glass of water with "Mexican ice" is a lot less safe to drink than
a glass of the same ice filled with tequila or adding the ice to something with low ph. or high in salt.

The question is not if it is sterile cause almost nothing is.
The question is, Is the risk reasonable.

A much simpler solution with essentially no risk is just to use clean water and proper handling techniques in the first place.

 

[The Soft Underbelly]

I've used ice in several batches prior to getting a wort chiller. Bottled water frozen in tupperware type containers that i washed in extremely hot tap water (didn't occur for me to sanitize).

I experienced a 15 min cool down on roughly a 2.75 gallon vol of wort with no off flavors to be found. Some of my best batches were cooled this way.