Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

bdb?

Belgian Debittered Black (Dingeman's). Dehusked black malt essentially, but it is a true malt rather than a dark roasted barley.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

We've been tinkering with subtle changes with the Westvleteren 12 clone for just over 4 years now. This is a snapshot of highlights we've learned to date:

• Mashing in the lower end, (148F) and mashing out on the higher end, (170F), gets the best of both worlds for fementability and head retention.
  
• Pitching yeast at the Fix rate is best on the first brew. Scaling the pitch down slowly over time is the best way to avoid an under-pitch and stuck fermentation. We currently pitch at 17.5 million/ml
  
• Oxygenate the ale slowly and well with pure O2...90 seconds or better.
  
• Ramping from 63F to 79F works best for us.
  
• Don't let the yeast escape. Westmalle is a 'violent' top cropper. We've seen it blow across a brew room over 10 feet in larger batches. Have a sterile trap to capture the yeast. If krausen slurry is any measure we've seen 200+ billion cells blow off of a 5 gallon fermentor.
  
• Although BLAM reported 20 years ago that Pils and Pale are used in the Abt 12, constant taste testing undeniably indicates this is no longer the case. This is a Pils only Belgian Quad. The recipe originated at St. Bernardus (which is also a Pils only Quad + a small about of BDB).
  
• Northern Brewer is likely the bittering hop, but the IBU's are probably higher than reported.

This year we're focused on the Single malt version and are pushing to have a replica of Westvleteren 12 that is indistinguishable from the import. We're very close.

 

[meadowstream]

Northern Brewer is likely the bittering hop, but the IBU's are probably higher than reported.

I agree re:IBUs - with so much alcohol and the strength of the CS, balancing with hops' bitterness matters and ~10%-15% more hops is called for IMO. I like a more balanced beer so this approach works for me.

 

[g-star]

Thanks for the summary.

How fast are you ramping the temp up to 79F? Is it a linear curve, or do you let it free rise quickly to a certain point and then ramp more slowly to 79F?




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[b-boy]

It's been about 1 1/2 months since I bottled this. It's good, but it's missing some of the Belgian characteristics I was expecting. All I can compare it to is Chimay or ABT 12 because I've never had the original. Is this beer generally a little milder in the Belgian characteristics than other quads?

I was pretty dead on with my temperatures and times, though I may have let it go a little longer before chilling.

Can anyone comment on this?

 

[tehnick]

It gets better with age.

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[FatDragon]

I'm planning on cultivating the dregs from a Westmalle Dubbel (for better or worse), building that up to pitch in a 5 gallon batch using half the grainbill ("The Lukewarm"), except with pale 2-row for lack of affordable pils, then doing a full batch and pitching it on the cake.

Pilsner malt and a better source of the yeast are unavailable, or prohibitively expensive, and I have no stir plate nor can I borrow one. My goal is not to make a perfect Westy 12 clone, but to make a delicious beer.

That said, is there any reason my plan won't work? What kind of starter progression should I be planning on to pitch for the half-grain batch? This will be my second time not using rehydrated dry yeast, and the first time was an IIPA pitched on the US-05 cake of a session APA, so I'm a little bit in the woods with the bottle-harvested starter thing.

 

[jtp137]

It's been about 1 1/2 months since I bottled this. It's good, but it's missing some of the Belgian characteristics I was expecting. All I can compare it to is Chimay or ABT 12 because I've never had the original. Is this beer generally a little milder in the Belgian characteristics than other quads?



I was pretty dead on with my temperatures and times, though I may have let it go a little longer before chilling.



Can anyone comment on this?

When you said dead on with temperatures are you referring to fermentation temperature? My belgians got noticeably better when i started low and slowly raised the temp


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[jtp137]

We've been tinkering with subtle changes with the Westvleteren 12 clone for just over 4 years now. This is a snapshot of highlights we've learned to date:

• Mashing in the lower end, (148F) and mashing out on the higher end, (170F), gets the best of both worlds for fementability and head retention.
  
• Pitching yeast at the Fix rate is best on the first brew. Scaling the pitch down slowly over time is the best way to avoid an under-pitch and stuck fermentation. We currently pitch at 17.5 million/ml
  
• Oxygenate the ale slowly and well with pure O2...90 seconds or better.
  
• Ramping from 63F to 79F works best for us.
  
• Don't let the yeast escape. Westmalle is a 'violent' top cropper. We've seen it blow across a brew room over 10 feet in larger batches. Have a sterile trap to capture the yeast. If krausen slurry is any measure we've seen 200+ billion cells blow off of a 5 gallon fermentor.
  
• Although BLAM reported 20 years ago that Pils and Pale are used in the Abt 12, constant taste testing undeniably indicates this is no longer the case. This is a Pils only Belgian Quad. The recipe originated at St. Bernardus (which is also a Pils only Quad + a small about of BDB).
  
• Northern Brewer is likely the bittering hop, but the IBU's are probably higher than reported.

This year we're focused on the Single malt version and are pushing to have a replica of Westvleteren 12 that is indistinguishable from the import. We're very close.

Wow 17.5 million/ml is a pretty big underpitch. I was going to make a 10 gallon batch this weekend was tossing around the idea of underpitching. I also have a 30 gallon glass fish tank that I used for open fermentation a couple of times


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[b-boy]

When you said dead on with temperatures are you referring to fermentation temperature? My belgians got noticeably better when i started low and slowly raised the temp


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I followed this from page 1:
Chill the wort down to 65f, pitch and let it self rise to about 82-83f and try to hold it there. The yeast will keep the temp there for about 5 days when fermentation is about 80% done (about 1.018) and start to chill down to 65f until you hit terminal gravity at 1.012 which should take 2 days. After this rack off into a secondary (I did kegs for both as I keg conditioned) and chill to 50f for 7 weeks, then carb however you want.

I let it sit a little longer at 65F because it took longer than 2 days to hit terminal gravity. I have a fermentation chamber that does a pretty good job of maintaining temperatures.

 

[jtp137]

Then I would say let it age more if you can. I could never let it sit long enough my record is 6 months. Did you underpitch


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[BeerMeDuffMan]

Then I would say let it age more if you can. I could never let it sit long enough my record is 6 months. Did you underpitch


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Mine was still a tad hot at six months, I may sample again next month but may just wait until the summer. August will be one year. I also had a similar issue with the yeast underperforming, but time is really helping matters

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[Brewbien]

Mine was really lacking on some of the stone fruit character that I was expecting and a little hot. I still put it in a barrel and aged 3 gallons on cherries after. Its been about 8 months and time has definitely helped.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Thanks for the summary.

How fast are you ramping the temp up to 79F? Is it a linear curve, or do you let it free rise quickly to a certain point and then ramp more slowly to 79F?

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We try to keep it as even an incremental rise as possible over 7 days. About a 2.2F rise daily.

I've gotten approval to post some pictures of some of our brewing innovations for the Westy. Hope to post some of this next week.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Wow 17.5 million/ml is a pretty big underpitch. I was going to make a 10 gallon batch this weekend was tossing around the idea of underpitching. I also have a 30 gallon glass fish tank that I used for open fermentation a couple of times


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In the Winter we pitch an estimated 664 Billion cells per 10 gallon batch at 1.090. Of course, our estimates are based on the White/Zainasheff model.

 

[IchLiebeBier]

Hi all. I'm getting ready to brew the new world, and I accidentally ordered D-180. Will this affect anything other than the color and the background taste? I don't know if the syrups have any different effect on OG.

I "think" I'd prefer the taste to the D-180, based on the product notes.

Thanks.

 

[b-boy]

Then I would say let it age more if you can. I could never let it sit long enough my record is 6 months. Did you underpitch


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No I didn't underpitch. I'm holding off until at least June.

 

[solbes]

Hi all. I'm getting ready to brew the new world, and I accidentally ordered D-180. Will this affect anything other than the color and the background taste? I don't know if the syrups have any different effect on OG.

I "think" I'd prefer the taste to the D-180, based on the product notes.

Thanks.

It's not per the recipe, but I used 2 lbs of the D180 and 1 lb of the D90. I would guess there are mostly overlaps in terms of taste between the two, but some sublte differences as well.

BTW, I love the taste that I ended up with. I don't think you will be disappointed with the D180. I beleive the sugar PPG is the same for D90 and D180.

 

[jtp137]

No I didn't underpitch. I'm holding off until at least June.

I can honestly say my beers using wlp530 got a little better, but i get a more noticeable belgian character using wlp500 and wlp570 the 500 more fruity and the 570 more spicy. I am going to try 530 one more time. If i am not happy with it i may try a blend of the 500 and 570 next time


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[meadowstream]

I can honestly say my beers using wlp530 got a little better, but i get a more noticeable belgian character using wlp500 and wlp570 the 500 more fruity and the 570 more spicy. I am going to try 530 one more time. If i am not happy with it i may try a blend of the 500 and 570 next time

I think I know what you mean about WLP530: it doesn't go to banana as radically as the Chimay strain, and doesn't have the tang. I like that myself: Westmalle strai is a very stable yeast that doesn't generate a lot of off flavors. But, it does have distinct and pleasant flavor and aroma - and it is one of the belgian characters that I like best!

Regarding aging, I have also found that after a few months the Westvleteren clone gets better. I think the D-180 flavor mellows a bit (it is very good, don't get me wrong!) and that helps to balance the whole beer.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

If we're after a BLAM spec for color and flavor D-180 would be the better choice for the Westvleteren 12 so you're probably in great shape.

 

[b-boy]

I can honestly say my beers using wlp530 got a little better, but i get a more noticeable belgian character using wlp500 and wlp570 the 500 more fruity and the 570 more spicy. I am going to try 530 one more time. If i am not happy with it i may try a blend of the 500 and 570 next time


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Good to know.

This is my first time brewing it. I'm not opposed to a mellower beer, in fact I prefer that. I'm just trying to figure out if I made a mistake.

It's a lot easier when you can do a side-by-side taste test. I was hoping for a reference point from someone who's had the real deal. I won't be dropping $40 for a bottle anytime soon.

 

[tehnick]

Good to know.

This is my first time brewing it. I'm not opposed to a mellower beer, in fact I prefer that. I'm just trying to figure out if I made a mistake.

It's a lot easier when you can do a side-by-side taste test. I was hoping for a reference point from someone who's had the real deal. I won't be dropping $40 for a bottle anytime soon.

St Bernardus Abt 12 is the closest you'll get without having the real thing. I see it all over at whole foods and bottle shops. I didn't have the cash to drop $40 a bottle.

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[b-boy]

OK - thanks. I've had ABT 12. Good stuff.

 

[IchLiebeBier]

It's not per the recipe, but I used 2 lbs of the D180 and 1 lb of the D90. I would guess there are mostly overlaps in terms of taste between the two, but some sublte differences as well.

BTW, I love the taste that I ended up with. I don't think you will be disappointed with the D180. I beleive the sugar PPG is the same for D90 and D180.

Thanks. After research it seems that D-180 came out after the recipe was originally written. The makers claim it's the best choice for Westy 12, so I feel a lot better about it. I'm looking forward to making it.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

A quick snapshot on the similarities and differences of D-90 and D-180.

D-90 was crafted to be used mainly in dubbels. Most of the US and International first place awards using D-90 have been dubbels, (i.e. Apocalypse 'Lustful Maiden' and Cedar Creek's 'Belgian Style Dubbel' are only a few of the awards). It's interaction with many Belgian strains of yeast result in fresh and dried stone fruit.

D-180 was designed with Westvleteren 12 and Rochefort 10 in mind since we could not find a suitable adjunct to match these color and pallet characteristics with what was being imported into the US. It has a combination of dried stone fruit, figs, caramel and toasted bread.

All the partners at CSI are brewers so this began as a very long project to craft adjuncts that raised the bar on flavor and color.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Early on in the process of trialing high gravity Belgians we had yeast blowoff in the twelve digit range. When it became a problem with some of our early fermentations we responded with the following design. It turned out to be more than just a retention design. We also use it in a different configuration to harvest large amounts of krausen and to refresh tired yeast strains.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

This is the harvest configuration. It's completely sealed and sterile for clean krausen capture.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

This is a closer view of the check valve and stainless tri-clamp screen.

 

[tehnick]

This is the harvest configuration. This is completely sealed and sterile for clean krausen capture.

Is something like this available on the market for purchase or was it a custom fabrication to fit on the conical? I'm just using buckets and top cropping for harvest but would like to jump to a conical with more harvesting options. I like the top crop more for the yeast health but finding a way to do it with a conical is the goal to work for.

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