The original Lager thread.. Everything you ever wanted to know or ask

[StoneHands]

TD, I'd make a typical starter, maybe 1.050 or 1.060 (a little higher than typical) with any DME and get that spinning on a plate with a new vial of yeast. Aerate it well. After a short duration, add some of the doppel to it. Say for instance, you make a 2L starter, add 1L of your unfinished doppel to it after 12 hours or so, let that spin for a bit and then pitch the whole thing at high krausen. My times may be a bit off, you'll have to judge for yourself based on the activity of the starter. This will get it slightly acclimated to your unfinished doppel, but won't stress the yeast too much initially. I've had luck getting a few extra points out of a beer by doing this - I'm not saying this is the best way or the right way, but it's a method I've used with a little success. The key is to get active yeast back in the beer, but active yeast that are somewhat used to the environment you're putting them in.

IMO your only other option is to pitch on a healthy yeast cake from a beer that did attenuate fully (something you probably don't have). I haven't done this, but I've read on here that some people, that's the only way they can unstick a stuck ferment.

 

[StoneHands]

Any suggestions on de-aerating the conical sample when I pull some for a hydrometer reading? Shaking, repeated pouring between vessels?

This is a pain in the butt on every lager I make. 50 degree fermented beer still has a lot of trapped CO2 in it when you need to warm it up to 60 or 68 to take a reading. I'd be willing to hear suggestions too, but I've put my sample in an empty (and dry) water bottle (threaded cap) and shook it up, open the cap to let off the pressure and repeat. I've also put my hand over the top of the sampling tube and shook it (messy), I've also just let it degas on its own for a little while and then taken a measurement. Still haven't gotten a good solution.

 

[TrickyDick]

I took a sample, put it into a pint size mason jar and shook the hell out of it. It was STILL too carbonated. I let it sit about 36 hours in the basement (an AWFUL 80 degrees in FL!) and then took a reading and adjusted the reading 1.0315 for temp to get 1.034. It appeared fully decarbonated. I've also taken refractometer readings, and those seem all over the board after corrections. It IS a PITA though...

I ordered a pack of SafLager today. When it arrives, I will rehydrate it in boiled/pressure cooked water that has cooled, and then into a pint size mason jar also sterilized in the pressure cooker. I'll prep another mason jar to collect some fermenting wort from the fermenter and add that to the mason jar and apply the lid loosely. I know it isn't recommended to make a "starter" with dry yeast, but in this case I am just activating it I consider, since the beer is nearly finished fermenting. question is, should I oxygenate this "starter" or add a drop of olive oil ?

Thanks

TD

 

[StoneHands]

I've never been a believer of the olive oil thing, so I'm not the one to ask....

I don't think this is your typical "starter", so I think activating it and getting it going is exactly what this situation needs, so I like your plan. I'd start it in fresh (no alcohol present) wort, then add your doppel after it's been going for a bit.

 

[ncbrewer]

Any suggestions on de-aerating the conical sample when I pull some for a hydrometer reading? Shaking, repeated pouring between vessels?

This thread has a suggestion from AJ Delange:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/does-co2-affect-gravity-286783/
I use a modification of his procedure that seems to work - I pour back and forth between two glasses 20 times. Whatever works.

 

[13ONK]

I'd like clarification of the botteling process.

Do you bottle after lagaring?

Once bottled, do they just condition at ale temp or should they go back into cold storage?

 

[TrickyDick]

I'd like clarification of the botteling process.

Do you bottle after lagaring?

Once bottled, do they just condition at ale temp or should they go back into cold storage?

Lagering is supposed to be done before bottling/packaging.

TD

 

[g-star]

At the homebrew level, it can be done before or after bottling.

If bottled after lagering, it is a good idea to add fresh yeast or else risk waiting a long time for the bottles to carbonate.

If bottled first, allow sufficient time for carbonation before dropping the temps down into the 30's for lagering.

 

[afr0byte]

At the homebrew level, it can be done before or after bottling.

If bottled after lagering, it is a good idea to add fresh yeast or else risk waiting a long time for the bottles to carbonate.

If bottled first, allow sufficient time for carbonation before dropping the temps down into the 30's for lagering.

You'd definitely get more sediment if you lagered in a bottle, though.

 

[winvarin]

I don't brew lagers all that often, but when I do, I go straight from primary to keg (I only bottle limited amounts, off a keg with a CP filler).

I stick it in the back of my keezer and use a picnic tap to draw a couple ounces off every few days until I get a pretty clear pour. Then I just let it sit. I taste it every couple of weeks until I think it's ready for prime time

 

[ghpeel]

I've done a couple lagers, and my last one (a Bo Pils) was a butter bomb, my first such tragedy. I was wondering if the following would work:

Instead of trying to target when you are at 80% (~1.020 or so), would it be acceptable to ferment out the lager completely at the same temp, then raise it to 65F, then add another couple points of fermentables (DME/LME, honey, dextrose, etc), and ferment that at 65F?

I detest having to "hover" around any beer, and taking daily samples to find when my lagers are 80% done is annoying, and clearly I didn't do it correctly on that last one anyway. Would the above method be a more "fool proof" way of fermenting 15-20% of your fermentables at the D-rest temps?

 

[g-star]

I've done a couple lagers, and my last one (a Bo Pils) was a butter bomb, my first such tragedy. I was wondering if the following would work:

Instead of trying to target when you are at 80% (~1.020 or so), would it be acceptable to ferment out the lager completely at the same temp, then raise it to 65F, then add another couple points of fermentables (DME/LME, honey, dextrose, etc), and ferment that at 65F?

I detest having to "hover" around any beer, and taking daily samples to find when my lagers are 80% done is annoying, and clearly I didn't do it correctly on that last one anyway. Would the above method be a more "fool proof" way of fermenting 15-20% of your fermentables at the D-rest temps?

If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).

Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.

 

[Darwin18]

If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).

Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.

Well said.

 

[TrickyDick]

If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).



Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.

So you pitch in the 40's and reset temp controller to 50 and let it free rise?

 

[ghpeel]

If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).

Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.

I don't currently possess the gear to oxygenate with pure O2.

Given this lack of O2, what do you think of the plan of adding extra fermentables specifically for the D-rest?

 

[beersk]

I don't currently possess the gear to oxygenate with pure O2.

Given this lack of O2, what do you think of the plan of adding extra fermentables specifically for the D-rest?

Shouldn't be necessary. Aerate as best you can by shaking or with a mix stir and pitch a ton of healthy yeast and you should be good to go.

 

[Darwin18]

So you pitch in the 40's and reset temp controller to 50 and let it free rise?

Yep. Put your carboy/bucket full of wort into your fermentation chamber and set it to the low 40's. Come back in a few hours when the temperature of the wort has stabilized and pitch your big ass liquid yeast starter. Set the controller to your targeted fermentation temperature and walk away for 2 - 3 weeks. I'd still advise to taste it for diacetyl after the 2nd week not knowing your process, but if you do this you really don't have a need for a D-Rest. You can still do one though if you want to.

 

[13ONK]

Lagering is supposed to be done before bottling/packaging.

TD

Thanks. I'll do it this way next time. My last one i wasn't sure so i lagered, bottled and let carb. Then lagered again. What a waste of time. This will save me some headache for sure.

 

[darthwill74]

Primary fermentation

How long should I keep coopers European lager in primary fermenter before bottling.it has been in the primary fermenter for nearly 5 weeks. Is this too long. What should the fg before bottling.

 

[tommyguner03]

i have my first lager going .. yoopers anchor steam clone, fermenting at 58f. temperature unit set at 55. do i wait till its 75% then take raise to 65? or can i wait till i hit my finished gravity?

 

[Bulls Beers]

i have my first lager going .. yoopers anchor steam clone, fermenting at 58f. temperature unit set at 55. do i wait till its 75% then take raise to 65? or can i wait till i hit my finished gravity?

IMO, 58 is a little high. I ferment most of my lagers at 47-48 degrees. I'll start my D-rest when fermentation is about 75% done, then bring it up to room temp and hold until finally gravity and for the yeast to clean up. Sometimes I start the D-rest too late, because I'm not paying attention, but I'll warm up to room temp for a few days anyway. The beer still comes out great.

 

[afr0byte]

IMO, 58 is a little high. I ferment most of my lagers at 47-48 degrees. I'll start my D-rest when fermentation is about 75% done, then bring it up to room temp and hold until finally gravity and for the yeast to clean up. Sometimes I start the D-rest too late, because I'm not paying attention, but I'll warm up to room temp for a few days anyway. The beer still comes out great.

It's a bit low for and Anchor Steam clone, though. Afaik Anchor pitches that in the low 60s and it rises to the high 60s during ferment.

 

[tommyguner03]

IMO, 58 is a little high. I ferment most of my lagers at 47-48 degrees. I'll start my D-rest when fermentation is about 75% done, then bring it up to room temp and hold until finally gravity and for the yeast to clean up. Sometimes I start the D-rest too late, because I'm not paying attention, but I'll warm up to room temp for a few days anyway. The beer still comes out great.

sorry i didnt post that i am using ..WLP810 San Francisco Lager Yeast

This yeast is used to produce the "California Common" style beer. A unique lager strain which has the ability to ferment up to 65 degrees while retaining lager characteristics. Can also be fermented down to 50 degrees for production of marzens, pilsners and other style lagers.

i will keep an eye on it for 75%

 

[tommyguner03]

It's a bit low for and Anchor Steam clone, though. Afaik Anchor pitches that in the low 60s and it rises to the high 60s during ferment.

i think i will just keep it where its at. been fermenting for two days now. unless i should raise up the temp?

 

[Bulls Beers]

sorry i didnt post that i am using ..WLP810 San Francisco Lager Yeast

This yeast is used to produce the "California Common" style beer. A unique lager strain which has the ability to ferment up to 65 degrees while retaining lager characteristics. Can also be fermented down to 50 degrees for production of marzens, pilsners and other style lagers.

i will keep an eye on it for 75%

Yeah ha, I missed that..

 

[tommyguner03]

Ok my anchor steam has been fermenting for only three days and I'm already at 75%.. Is this correct? Should I pull out for the d rest?

 

[afr0byte]

Ok my anchor steam has been fermenting for only three days and I'm already at 75%.. Is this correct? Should I pull out for the d rest?

Probably not a bad idea

 

[zeg]

At the homebrew level, it can be done before or after bottling.

If bottled after lagering, it is a good idea to add fresh yeast or else risk waiting a long time for the bottles to carbonate.

If bottled first, allow sufficient time for carbonation before dropping the temps down into the 30's for lagering.

Based on my (somewhat limited) experience, I question the need for adding fresh yeast. I did five lagers last year, ranging in ABV from about 5% to 8%, with the higher ABV batches lagering for 6-8 months. I primed as usual, and gave them 4-6 weeks and they were carbonated. I hate bottle sediment, so adding additional gunk after letting the trub settle out is a big turn-off for me.

Of course, everyone's experience is different, different yeast behave differently, people have different tolerance/storage space/temp for aging bottles during carbonation, etc. Most of my beers condition in-bottle for 3-4 weeks anyway, but I suppose some might consider 4-6 weeks to be a "long time." In any case, carbonating without additional yeast is certainly possible, even for fairly stout lagers.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I'd like some quick help on pitching rates for a 3 gallon Irish Red I'm going to brew Monday. My 2.25 qt. Starter of 2633 Ofest blend doesn't seem to be taking off at all since thursday night despite nutrients and pure O2. I do have two packs of 34/70 in the fridge, will that be enough to cover me for a 3 gallon 1053 batch with pure O2?

 

[afr0byte]

I'd like some quick help on pitching rates for a 3 gallon Irish Red I'm going to brew Monday. My 2.25 qt. Starter of 2633 Ofest blend doesn't seem to be taking off at all since thursday night despite nutrients and pure O2. I do have two packs of 34/70 in the fridge, will that be enough to cover me for a 3 gallon 1053 batch with pure O2?

2 packs will be more than enough...but is it really an Irish Red with lager yeast?