The original Lager thread.. Everything you ever wanted to know or ask

[MoreCowbell]

Sorry if I jacked this thread....thought it was a Lager issue originally, but I guess it is really a bottling issue...DOH!

 

[mblanks2]

Just cracked the top on my first Lager. A Czech Budvar clone. It is absolutely awesome. I attribute it to all the great advice from this site

 

[Bulls Beers]

So I tested the Oktoberfest today. 1 week after brewing
OG was 1.056
SG now by corrected hydrometer reading (actual temp 64F) 1.021, by refractometer 1.018 (corrected).

Seems like I might be doing something wrong. Been fermenting at 52F. The bad part is that I have NO IDEA what I might be doing "wrong".

Maybe its just too early to tell. I'll re-check in a week, though next weekend is HPDE time so might be more than day 14.

I'm not giving up on lagers. I wonder if switching to SafLager Dry Yeast would help. The temp strip on the conical indicates the same temp as the temp controller. No thermowell this time.

TD

EDIT- JB indicated that they tested the temp strips to an RTD probe, accurate within .1ºF and not significantly different than using a thermowell when tested against one.

bumped temp to 58ºF on the ferm freezer after I posted the last msg, and checked again today, 4 days later. Still at 1.021 by hydrometer reading. Can the CO2 in the hydroflask significantly affect the SG? Anyways, marching onwards. Thinking that the next lager on this yeast gonna get a couple packets of Saflager to the mix.

TD

TD, what yeast are you using and are you doing a starter?? I'm trying to pin point the issue. I know these things can sometimes vary, but my beers are finishing in about 7 days. For instance, I brewed a batch last Friday. Pitched the next day at 47-48 degrees. Today I raised the temp for a d-rest and I'm probably gonna keg tomorrow or Sunday night. My beers are starting out around 1.049-50 and finishing about 1.011-12..Maybe your not pitching enough or enough healthy yeast? Don't give up. I know your lagers are gonna be great..

 

[TrickyDick]

For my Helles, I pitched a 5L starter as a two stage starting with 3 vials of WLP 838, and a stir plate. Starter seemed to be rocking the place. I pitched the second lager onto the entire yeast cake from the first lager. For the first brew, a Helles, I pitched a correct amount going by YeastCalc with JZ metrics. Assuming yeast wasn't damaged in transit - 2 day shipping with ice packs. I couldn't cough up $50 just for overnight S&H.

I am thinking to try some dry SafLager for my next brew perhaps. Note that my next planned lager was to be a Dopplebock. I think I need to let my first two lagers finish up and taste before I consider brewing another. At least with the same yeast. I verified that my fermentation temps seem to be accurate enough. I am wondering if I may have incorrect oxygenation levels.

All I can think if is a yeast health issue. My Ales all seem to finish up fine. I could be that my different mash chemistry is off, but I used pH strips and that seemed to be OK. Temps all otherwise were accurate during the mash. I checked the iodine test. I can't think it is unfermentables. I think it really has to be a yeast health or number issue. These seem odd in the second brew however since there was a much LARGER yeast cake from fermentation..

All I can do is try some new yeast I think. If temp got too high during shipping and I grossly underpitched that could explain why brew #1 was off target. But that shouldn't explain brew #2.

I gonna keep tight notes on lager #3 and use some dry yeast and see if my efforts are rewarded.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmmm, so after a family vacation, during which I crash cooled the Oktoberfest and checked the gravity again. 1.018. I looked on my Beersmith recipe, and the FG is at what Beersmith projected. Oddly taste test (albeit very low temp and undercarbonated is pretty nice). Need to dump the yeast cake and move on with life.

I am going to try running my rig off portable cylinder (long story) - not getting a strong enough boil and faint corn DMS notes are present, which I never noticed in any of my Ales. Must be the Pils malt and wimpy boil. I might just try doing a smaller batch size for my next lager (doppelbock) which I was running into problems designing the mash for anyways because of the 15 gallon mash tun and 11 gallon target for the fermenter. Maybe a 5 gallon brew will be easier for this, as I am going to try a triple or double enhanced decoction mash.

My first lager needs to be carbonated, and should be ready to serve in 10 days or so. That was a Munich Helles. Can't wait to try it, and just the days are getting super Hot and Humid here in FL.

Since my next lager brew session is a ways off, looks like I am not going to be able to preserve the yeast and have any accurate idea of pitch rate for that Doppelbock I was planning. Any recommendations for a dry yeast for that brew? I might be able to finagle the liquid yeast option, but living in FL I am concerned about ordering liquid yeasts during summer months, even with 2 day shipping and ice packs (Overnight is prohibitively expensive).

TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

Let me know how the helles turns out...

 

[StoneHands]

Any recommendations for a dry yeast for that brew?

TD

I've never used it, but I hear 34/70 is pretty good.

 

[TrickyDick]

Let me know how the helles turns out...

I need to get some hofbrau original to compare, or maybe even a cigar city Helles to see if its on for style, but I think the bitterness is pretty spot on. Color, and head, spot on. I need to check on the FG but I think is probably a point or two lower than my last check. I calculated the ABV at 4.4, which seemed low, but I also missed the OG by a few points, and had more than 10 gallons in the fermenter. Probably more than 11. I think that this indicates a little weak in the boil dept. I did boil for a full 90 minutes. I have some DMS aroma in there. If you plug your nose its barely noticeable! Oddly, the first pint I drank I thought was problematic, though I knew from earlier tastings, that I was likely to have DMS. I am wondering if my mind is playing tricks. The second pint didnt really notice the DMS/corn aroma. It seems that its only the aroma by the way, and no corn like flavors that I could taste. I am having some guys over tonight to help me drink some beer so as to make room for the 5 carboys of finished beer waiting to be kegged. Ill have them try some, and see what they think, though none are homebrewer, mostly BMC guys. I will point out that I think officially the Helles still has a week left of lagering that its due. I put it online though since the guys over last night killed the keg of levitation ale clone, so i had a tap availble and the helles was already in the fridge. Since its been lagering in the serving fridge at only 40 degrees however, and also only being carbonated for a couple days, not counting the residual carbonation from fermentation, it might possibly improve with another week on gas and to lager. I added no fining agent, but was drinking in a solid plastic poolside cup. Tonight ill try a clear plastic glass cup. No real glass on the pool deck/outdoor kitchen area (where the taps are) if I can help it.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Ok.


The Helles is pretty darn good! I wouldn't call it perfect, but good. A bit on the lower gravity side, but I knew that from the beginning. Really no DMS that I can taste or smell at this point. Crystal clear in the glass. Needs a few more days to achieve proper carbonation, but tasting nice now. My BMC friends all really liked it.
I think with missing my OG by a few points seems to make the minimal bitterness slightly more noticeable, but maybe I'm just being picky.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Ok.

The Helles is pretty darn good! I wouldn't call it perfect, but good. A bit on the lower gravity side, but I knew that from the beginning. Really no DMS that I can taste or smell at this point. Crystal clear in the glass. Needs a few more days to achieve proper carbonation, but tasting nice now. My BMC friends all really liked it.
I think with missing my OG by a few points seems to make the minimal bitterness slightly more noticeable, but maybe I'm just being picky.

TD

Oh an by they way. I decided to abandon the dry yeast idea for my next lager a double bock. I wanted to brew a brown ale next, but got to take advantage of the yeast cake from the Oktoberfest. I ran it through yeast calc. 11 gallons lager with OG 1.096 needs 1496 billion cells. That's like 15 tubes of yeast, Or 7-8 packs of dry yeast, assuming 100% viability!
Heck NO. Im using my old yeast cake!

I think I will try to do a washing the night before brewing and maybe add some DME to feed it right in the fermenter as a pseudo starter.

Now I need a nice ladle for doing the decoctions..

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

One question I have is this...

In reading from Braukaiser..

"When it comes to pitching and primary fermentation temperatures cold and warm lager fermentation exists. The cold fermentation uses a pitching temperature of 41 *F (5 *C) and a maximum fermentation temperature of 48 *F (9 *C) and the warm fermentation uses a pitching temperature of 46 *F (8 *C) and a maximum fermentation temperature of 50 - 54 *F (10 - 12 *C). This should however not be confused with warm vs. cold pitching. There is no warm pitching in commercial German lager fermentation."

However, my yeast WLP838
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp838-southern-german-lager-yeast

Has an optimum fermentation temp of 50-55°F.

I think that I am going to run the fermentation at 50°F, pitch, primary, secondary all at 50°

I'm not so sure what pitching at 41 or 46 degrees is supposed to accomplish. Can anyone explain?

I'm also not sure how the pitch rate of yeast slurry 500ml per 100 L of 12°Plato wort translates to 11 gallons of 1.096. Some math shows that's 23.88 Plato, but lets just call it 24 for simplicity. Thus I'd need double or 1L slurry for 100 L. I'd have 41.6L, so I think my math indicates 416ml slurry from old yeast cake, adjust for trub, non yeast and what not...
Any suggestions?

TD

 

[FatsSchindee]

I'm about to brew my first lager, an Oktoberfest, also using 838, and also using a starter with stir plate, and had some similar questions. I'm doing a 5.5 gal batch of the O'fest, and am also going to do two 1 gal lagers (a Bohemian Pilsener and a German Pilsner) using the same yeast (to get more use out of my ferm chamber since it'll have the O'fest in it anyway, and to test out new recipes on smaller batches first). I also have planned to primary at 50* (starting at 48* at pitching, I think), the low end of the recommended range for 838.

I don't do all grain yet, only extract. My O'fest recipe is extract with steeping grains, but for both the pilsner recipes I'm doing a minimash with 33% German Pils malt... I had planned on only doing a 60 min boil, but do you think this is enough to worry about DMS, and should I do a 90 min boil for these instead? These are only 1 gal each (1.2 pre boil vol), so we're talking only 8oz pils malt each.

For the starter, the yeast calc I've been using (at brewersfriend.com - using the Braukaiser stir plate calcs) says ill need 438B cells for the O'fest (1.057), 80B for the B'Pils (1.054), and 70B for the G'Pils (1.048 ). My vial should have around 70B cells by the time I starter it, and the calc says if I do a 1.75L starter (1.040), then step it up using the same (1.75L of 1.040), it should give me 581B... Or just about enough for the three batches combined (588B). I only have a 2L flask, so I bought some anti-foaming drops to add to keep the starter from overflowing and losing any yeast (hopefully!). How should I measure this yeast out? I'm thinking just measure the total volume of slurry (after decanting the spent wort from the crashed second step up), and then divide that number by 7.5... Basically just making a ratio: since I have 7.5 gal total, take 5.5/7.5 and put it into the O'fest, then put 1/7.5 into each of the gallon jugs. I know that it won't be exact (since the numbers would be slightly different based on the different SGs), but I figure that should be close enough for what I'm trying to achieve, no? Anybody have a better idea or method, such as calculating the slurry density and pitching by actual volume, and not relative (my ratio method) volume?

One last question: I won't be able to brew all three at once, but want to start them fermenting/pitch the yeast at the same time, so they are on the same schedule in the ferm chamber (at least to start - I know they'll prob ferment out differently due to the diff recipes, but it'll be close since the same yeast, I think). Would there be any problem with leaving one (the 5.5 gal, most likely - since it'll take longer to chill anyway) in the ferm chamber at 48*, sealed up (with normal sanitation, of course) in my bucket, but not pitched - while I brew the other two (at most 24hrs later, but hopefully I can do one in the am and the others in the pm of the same day)? And then pitch the yeast to all three at the same time. Or do you think I'd be better off doing the two small ones first, so that if they did get some kind of infection or something while waiting to be pitched, I'd minimize my losses? I'll be on a tight schedule for everything, and don't think the yeast will be completely dropped from the second cold crash soon enough to pitch them each right after brewing (it'll only be 24 hrs by the time I need to pitch all three even - hoping this is enough time!), hence this question about waiting. I was think of throwing the yeast into the ferm chamber from the fridge a couple hours before pitching, to raise it to 48* as well, so everything could be happy together at the same temp when they begin their feast(s)!

Sorry so long-winded... Just trying to wrangle the logistics of the first lagers and starters! Thanks for any advice!

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmm.
Well I am still on the learning curve for lagers, but here is my 2 cents:

1.) have fun
2.) If the O'Fest is from extract, I think you'll be fine with whatever you choose for boiling as far as DMS concerns. I do not believe that DMS is an issue with extract as the LME has already been boiled, like stink, and probably under vaccum (don't know exact production methods.)
3.) for the other two mini mash brews, you might be able to get away with a 60 minute boil since they're small and you'll have sufficient boiling power I assume for boiling 1 gallon, and also the Pils is a minor fraction of the mash. However, 90 minutes probably isn't going to kill you spending an extra 30 minutes for a beer you're going to be lagering for a few months.
4.) no idea on the yeast management. just go with it. only exact way requires a microscope and stains, and measuring equipment probably, and other special equipment.
5.) you'll probably be fine pitching the yeast into the sterile wort up to 24-28 hours later, but it does increase the potential for problems. I've done lagers before where I couldn't get my beer down to pitch temps and I ended up chilling in the fridge the rest of the way overnight. just don't forget to oxygenate right before you pitch!

good luck!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Doing my DoppelBock today. Got off to late start.
Decided to to a decoction mash, and had to back off the planned OG, now 1.085. I didn't want to thicken the mash above 1.5 so max that I can fit into tun for a 11 gallon batch, and I can barely stir the tun without spilling stuff!
First decoction 27.? quarts pulled and heated to 160 is resting now. Main Mash at 104 and resting. I'm telling you that the mash at the 104 temp cannot be circulated even slowly without eventually clogging the blichman false bottom. the decoction mash is really thick, but they say, pull a thick decoction. getting ready to head down to check for conversion and proceed to the boil.
I think I am going to probably skip any further decoctions, as the second was a mash out decoction. I am going to add the decoction back to hit a sacch rest and skip the protein rest.
Bought a 32 oz SS long handled ladle from Amazon to pull the decoctions. worked well.
decoctions are heated in the boil kettle.

Back to brewing.

TD

New propane gear working well, plus I have ability to dial in pressure. Very handy for Boil Kettle burner. These Tejas Smokers mini jet burners definitely burn better with more than 11" W.C. I need to come up with a hybrid plan for running boil kettle off portable cylinder if I want, and the rest of the rig, or entire rig off buried tanks.

Now..... off to buy more propane! GRRRrrr!

 

[FatsSchindee]

3.) for the other two mini mash brews, you might be able to get away with a 60 minute boil since they're small and you'll have sufficient boiling power I assume for boiling 1 gallon, and also the Pils is a minor fraction of the mash. However, 90 minutes probably isn't going to kill you spending an extra 30 minutes for a beer you're going to be lagering for a few months.
4.) no idea on the yeast management. just go with it. only exact way requires a microscope and stains, and measuring equipment probably, and other special equipment.
5.) you'll probably be fine pitching the yeast into the sterile wort up to 24-28 hours later, but it does increase the potential for problems. I've done lagers before where I couldn't get my beer down to pitch temps and I ended up chilling in the fridge the rest of the way overnight. just don't forget to oxygenate right before you pitch!

good luck!

TD

Thanks for the reply, TD. That's a good point about the small addition of 30 minutes more boiling time, relative to the months it'll be before I taste one of these... Might as well! I'll just have to figure out a good boil off rate for 90... Would it make sense to just take my 60 and add half? I'm guessing 1.5 gal pre-boil might leave me with around a gallon after 90 min? I've only ever done 5+ gal, 60 min, batches, so not sure how the lesser volume and more time will affect it. As a test this afternoon, I just boiled 1.5 gal of water for 60 min, and was only left with 53% of that (a 47% boil-off rate!). That's way higher than anything I've ever gotten on the bigger batches (which I haven't measured that assiduously, as I only do partial boils and then top up - so it's not as important exactly how much I lose during the boil. But just from eyeballing it, I know it's never been that much!). The only other reference I personally have is during a 15 min boil of DME and water for a yeast starter - I lost 500ml from a 2.3L boil to end up with 1.8L... That's about 22%, which seems closer to normal. Though again, that was only 15 min. I've heard JZ and JP on Brewstrong say 10-15% is a normal 60 min boil-off rate, and I think I've read something similar elsewhere. I guess that the smaller the volume, the higher the boil-off rate gets? I need to search around here for some more info (I haven't looked through the "one gallon brewers unite" thread yet, because its ridiculously long, but I'm sure there's some good info in there...

And looking more at my timing, I think I'm going to just do one 1 gal batch at the same time as the O'fest, instead of trying to do both of them at some other time. If I start them at the same time (I have four burners on the stovetop, so I should be able to pull it off), and then do the 90 min boil for the small one, that'll stagger them for chilling, and give the big batch more time to chill. But most likely, I'll leave them both overnight in my ferm chamber (chest freezer w/STC-1000) along with the yeast, so that they will all be the same temp in the morning when I pitch. I think that'll work out best for me overall. Then I can just do the other 1 gal batch next time I do my next 5 gal lager...

How's the doppelbock going?

 

[TrickyDick]

As far as boil-off rates go, well.....

I think the notion of % per hour is ludicrous as you've discovered. The boil off is dependent upon many factors and is usually not as simple as the brewing software shows it to be. Real life is different. For instance, what is the relative humidity? What is the atmospheric pressure? What is the boiling temp of water at your altitude? These types of things all get over simplified into the "boil off rate". I find it useful, but you need to experiment and see what is happening for you. If you have a 15k BTU stovetop you're boiling a gallon and a half ( 6 quarts ) if you crank to the max, you're going to be lucky to have much left to drink after 90 minutes of boiling!

I don't have a lot of advice for you on that one. I'd say you're probably fine to go with a 60 min boil myself. I am just a bit leery of DMS is all. 2 lagers brewed, 2 with DMS. I think I can lessen it by bubbling CO2 through at warm (room) temps and letting it vent to scrub away the DMS. I've heard this is helpful. I also have a new part for my Brew Rig that will let me amp up the burner to get through the lager brews without the DMS. Never detected any in my ales before.

How is the Doppelbock coming? well, I had a few issues.

first, I had been having DMS problems. Probably due to weak boil for boiling 13.5 gallons of wort. my burners are rated 100k btu, but I have as much faith in those btus as I do in boil off rates. After a bunch of money, I finally listened to reason of Irrenzart here on the forum. Bought an acetylene regulator and used it for a portable propane tank. 1 psi is far more than 11"W.C. my rig is supposed to run on. well I measured it, and its 11" W.C. just like its supposed to be, but burners didn't boil correctly. Mostly the boil kettle burner. Anyway, feels like two steps backward going to portable cylinders from a buried tank setup.

Anyway, that took a bit of time this morning to rig up. Didn't dough in until 11:48AM. Didnt finish sparge until about 6:45. Did a single decoction. Didn't fully convert after 20 min, then another 20 min, then another 20 minutes. then I added some liquid (presumably with more enzymes) from the main mash and mashed a bit further, then said screw it, and boiled. during 28 minutes of planned 40 minutes boiling of the decoction, I ran out of propane! Went to store, 45 minutes to get back with more propane. Heat decoction back to boil - by the way, it looked awesome! Then I added it all back to the main mash, and guess what .. since no protein rest (though I doubt would have mattered) tons of "teig" gumming up my mash, and it was a PITA to recirculate all day long because of it. Anyway, finally got things going smoother and was able to step the mash up to the appropriate temp (the decoction thing didn't hit my target of course because it too way longer to convert, and had to run to store, so main mash temps dipped).

So anyway, I decide to forego the mash out decoction and go straight step mash, with directly heat the recirculating mash. It takes a bit of effort but I got it done. the Sparge I think took about 100-120 minutes for similar reasons.

Then a thunderstorm rolls in. I packed up and cleaned up and intend to boil tomorrow and finish the brew.

On the plus side, Its been kind of fun to do a decoction mash. Its kind of weird seeing your mash boiling! Smells good. No real scorching (at least not to a significant degree). also, the decoction mash gave me super high efficiency. highest I've ever had: 85%! I think I am going to extend the boil to 160 minutes and hope for a 1.100 OG brew!

TD

Then I ran out of propane!

 

[TrickyDick]

Ok, I have a problem.


I wanted to ask a question now about my last lager, and Oktoberfest. I didn't get near enough color or maltiness. I am wondering if I blend in a couple pints ( when its finished) for the dopplebock, if it would lend enough maltiness?

I guess it's off topic, but I guess it's a blending question . I might try and pour a glass of Oktoberfest and measure dilution. So 5 gallons if 40 pints. So 5% is two pints.

Maybe if I blend in two pints of dopplebock, after drinking two of the Oktoberfest, it might lend some maltiness. Worth a shot I think. Otherwise I'm going to have to call it a september fest: like an Oktoberfest, but not quite there.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Split the doppelbock into a sat mash, Sun boil. Left the pot covered overnight, inside. Looked in the morning, and a film had congealed over the top.m strange.

Any clue want that is? I skimmed it off and discarded.

Thanks to irrenzart for the propane parts! Had a great boil going. 13.6 gal down to 10.25 ish in two hours, not counting a littler bit of boil over!!! Wow! I used fermcap and still had a boil over! A couple of times! Minimal volume loss on the boil overs , and used a hop sack so didn't lose any hops. I think when you start with 1.074 OG and get it down to 1.101 (holy crap), that the sugar content makes the foaming much more intense.

This one is going to take a while I would think, to ferment out. Pitched it on my entire yeast cake from previous two lager brews. Mr malty default yeast concentrations and non yeast percentages for this says 7243 ml of yeast slurry! That equates to 1.91 GALLONS. Did I under pitch! I don't know the volume of yeast in my conical, because you cannot see any graduations or what not. It was below the racking arm port however. The last brew had been lagering in the conical on the yeast cake for 4 weeks already, so not sure what type of viability that is. I brewed that approx 4-5 weeks earlier I guess. Not sure what kind of viability that equates to. I guess we will see what happens, and hope for the best. Fermenting at 50°F

TD

 

[jjcoolj]

Split the doppelbock into a sat mash, Sun boil. Left the pot covered overnight, inside. Looked in the morning, and a film had congealed over the top.m strange.

Any clue want that is? I skimmed it off and discarded.

Maybe that film is from the fermcap?

I've only used fermcap once however I do not remember seeing anything out of the ordinary.

 

[TrickyDick]

Consensus is that its probably some bacterial crud. However, I skimmed, and the flavor of the produced wort was perfect without any souring. The second leading answer was some grain byproduct from the decoction mash. Personaly I dunno which it is, but the moral of this story is:

if you mash but dont boil and complete your brew that same day (like I did), at LEAST pasteurize your wort with a brief boil before shutting down for the day, like I was forced to do.

Personally i don't really think it was a bacterial pellicle as there was no off aroma of flavor, even pre boil. however, I find it hard to say for sure its from the mash, though I did see some similar material around some grain particles in the main mash while doing the decoction.

Anway, I checked the gravity today and it seems in 1 week that the gravity is down to 1.040ish, if corrected refrectometer readings are to be trusted. Still see airlock activity. Still fermenting away.

I think I am going to wait about two more weeks to take another reading. I imagine that this monster 1.101 brew will take a while to finish.

In other news, I was able to scrub out all the DMS aroma from my Helles brew. I used my .5 micron carbonation stone and let er rip at about 5 psi, with 75º beer, that had been out of serving fridge for several days and CO2 pressure released intermittently. I bubbled the gas through for about 5-10 minutes or so until I could no longer detect the DMS aroma. Sealed up and back into fridge to check again after chilled and carbonated to see if I can still detect any DMS.

TD

 

[FatsSchindee]

Thanks for the reply, TD. That's a good point about the small addition of 30 minutes more boiling time, relative to the months it'll be before I taste one of these... Might as well! I'll just have to figure out a good boil off rate for 90... Would it make sense to just take my 60 and add half? I'm guessing 1.5 gal pre-boil might leave me with around a gallon after 90 min? I've only ever done 5+ gal, 60 min, batches, so not sure how the lesser volume and more time will affect it. As a test this afternoon, I just boiled 1.5 gal of water for 60 min, and was only left with 53% of that (a 47% boil-off rate!). That's way higher than anything I've ever gotten on the bigger batches (which I haven't measured that assiduously, as I only do partial boils and then top up - so it's not as important exactly how much I lose during the boil. But just from eyeballing it, I know it's never been that much!). The only other reference I personally have is during a 15 min boil of DME and water for a yeast starter - I lost 500ml from a 2.3L boil to end up with 1.8L... That's about 22%, which seems closer to normal. Though again, that was only 15 min. I've heard JZ and JP on Brewstrong say 10-15% is a normal 60 min boil-off rate, and I think I've read something similar elsewhere. I guess that the smaller the volume, the higher the boil-off rate gets? I need to search around here for some more info (I haven't looked through the "one gallon brewers unite" thread yet, because its ridiculously long, but I'm sure there's some good info in there...

Just to update my results, I did end up running both the Oktoberfest and the Bohemian Pilsener at the same time. The boil-off rate for the smaller volume B'Pils was almost what I measured with my test. I decided to start with 2 gal and do a 90 min boil (good advice to try to avoid DMS, since I did a partial mash with Weyermann Pils malt as 33% of the grain bill. And good to hear your we're able to get rid of the DMS in your Helles, TD!). I thought I'd rather be slightly high, and have the OG be slightly lower, than have a slightly lower volume and have to top up (I guess that'd result in a lower OG, too, but preferred to be closer to a "full volume" boil). Anyway, I ended up with slightly more than the gallon I was shooting for. I didn't measure it, but eyeballed it to be about 1/10 of a gallon. I had a theoretical OG of 1.054, and an actual one of 1.050... Running the numbers backward would show that to fit a volume of 1.08 or so, so my guess of an extra 0.1 seems about right (that's assuming my minimash efficiency was spot on (65%), etc). So that is a 46% boil-off, for 90 min. Which is similar to my test in the same pot, but starting with 1.5 gal for only 60 min (47%).... So even an extra .5 gal makes a big difference (33% extra, at those volumes) in reducing the boil-off rate!

And for the O'fest, I boiled 3.5 gal for a hour, had almost exactly a 0.5 gal boil-off, and topped up with 2.5 gal chilled water for 5.5 in the fermentor. At least I have that size rate dialed in! Both are in the ferm chamber at 50* and happily fermenting away...

 

[sailingbrewer]

so I did a few lagers last winter and loved e'm planning on doing it again this winter I live on a sailboat in alaska which makes things interesting my cabin is about 52 degrees so that's what i ferment at but its hard to do a D-rest is there a strain of yeast that would be best for that? (i use wyeast products ) any ideas would be appreciated

 

[TrickyDick]

so I did a few lagers last winter and loved e'm planning on doing it again this winter I live on a sailboat in alaska which makes things interesting my cabin is about 52 degrees so that's what i ferment at but its hard to do a D-rest is there a strain of yeast that would be best for that? (i use wyeast products ) any ideas would be appreciated

I've heard if you choose a strain (check out the whitelabs or the wyeast pages) that is low is Diacetyl production, AND if you keep fermentation temps under 50º that you can possibly skip this step. I am still on the learning curve of lager brewing though.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Update on my Munich Helles.

I tried to purge the kegs by bubbling CO2 through a carbonation stone. I had let them rise to room temp and purged the gas then let them sit a few days. After they had warmed and de-gassed, I bubbled the CO2 through the diffusion stone until I couldn't smell anymore DMS. I chilled, and thought (since it was a 0.5 micron stone) that the beer would be carbed pretty well. I let it sit overnight on usual dispense presssure after it had chilled for a full day.

Today, I poured a glass of my brew and another glass of Hofbrau Original. My brew is certainly NOT fully carbonated anymore, and in manipulating the keg, I notice it is now hazy or cloudy slightly, though I can't tell which, and before I did the CO2 purge, it had been clear. I suspect that I've disturbed some keg sediment that should settle out.

aroma. Still a distinctive DMS aroma that is not detectable in the Hofbrau sample. I will purge some more.

flavor & Mouthfeel is similar. both are very close and I couldn't really say which is which if just going by mouth feel. the undercarbonation tends to become noticeable in my sample however, but that will change when properly carbonated. The malt flavors seem very similar, though I am distracted by the DMS.

Hop presence is much more noticeable in the Hofbrau than in mine. There has to be something going on here BESIDES just alpha acids. I wonder if it is water chemistry. I believe I did use RO water and adjust the Calcium Chloride and in general tried to emulate Kai's recommendations. My sample is bit more rounded and smooth compared with the more noticeable hop bitterness and also aroma and flavor that comes through on the Hofbrau sample, though I don't know how much is CO2 (probably not much).

I definitely missed the mark, but is still enjoyable to drink. I suspect that the beer will clear with some settling time, and that I will let it rest for a while longer in the serving fridge and try to simply reverse the gas post to bubble some more CO2 into the beer and try to vent or scrub more DMS out. I wonder if in doing so the first time, that I may have also scrubbed out some of the hop presence. I will definitely brew again. My boil kettle burner was burning too weak, and I have solved that problem once and for all.. even had boilover on my last brew! I think that might be the key for me if I had poor hop extraction due to poor boiling? Maybe Ill try adding some flavor and aroma hops in addition to the bittering hops next time and see where that gets me. I'm pretty certain the clarity will improve after it settles out, and I assume its just some keg sediment that has been stirred up. I had not added any finings to the fermented beer, but that might be a next step.

TD

 

[ShaineT]

I've heard if you choose a strain (check out the whitelabs or the wyeast pages) that is low is Diacetyl production, AND if you keep fermentation temps under 50º that you can possibly skip this step. I am still on the learning curve of lager brewing though.

TD

TD, there are some good strains that usually don't need a D-rest if you are pitching a big starter into cold wort. You could follow a more traditional schedule where you slowly chill to lagering after fermentation ends. I'm not sure if you have the ability to do this.

 

[TrickyDick]

TD, there are some good strains that usually don't need a D-rest if you are pitching a big starter into cold wort. You could follow a more traditional schedule where you slowly chill to lagering after fermentation ends. I'm not sure if you have the ability to do this.

Yes, I've heard this as well. I use a temp controlled freezer so I am able to do this.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Next steps for the dopplebock. Brewed a month ago.

I had pulled a sample from the conical and had left it out to test SG. Got to about 1.027 before I finally dumped it because I needed my hydrometer flask. It appears it was still fermenting. I prob should've saved it, but I guess that pretty good since I m happy it made it below 1.030. Beersmith says FG 1.020 predicted. We will see.
So I believe that I will need to check the SG on the beer in the conical to see where it is at, BUT what are the next steps? I think I will find that primary fermentation is over and that I am within the last 10 points of attenuation. The fermentation freezer is set at 49°F and has been the whole time, though I think I pitched at 52°F

When should I start dumping the yeast? (Anybody want some WLP838 in central FL?) attenuation range per WL is 68-76%, thought their mini ferment data says 78%. According to my pseudo FFT, I am at 71% (1.027). 1.022 is close to 76%, and 1.020 is 78.6%. Hopefully that's where I'll end up.

Diacetyl or no diacetyl rest? Want to avoid fusels though. Thought I read that if fermenting below 50 can skip the diacetyl, though it was probably a good 8 hours above 50 at the beginning , since I pitched at 52.

Any suggestions on de-aerating the conical sample when I pull some for a hydrometer reading? Shaking, repeated pouring between vessels?



TD

Edit - the beer in the conical is still in high 30s SG, still has some time to go. Hydro sample tasting great.

 

[TrickyDick]

Update.

Dopplebock, still not finished. 64% apparent attenuation. Down to 1.034 from OG 1.101

I am thinking about pitching a 2 L starter made of dark DME OG 1.080 and pitch at high krausen.

I am open to suggestions. I think that I would be happy to get below 1.030. My FFT I recall I ended up with 1.027, and maybe would've gone another point, possibly two.

Suggestions?
TD

 

[g-star]

I don't understant why you would want to make a 1.080 starter if you're just growing yeast, or why you would need to use dark DME. Starters should be between 1.030 and 1.040 so as not to stress the initial pitch.

You're already at nearly 9% ABV, so any starter is going to have a hard time when tossed into that environment with that much alcohol and nearly zero oxygen. This approach can sometimes work, but it is not guaranteed. I would use WLP099 if you're going to go this route, and even that might not budge it more than a point or two, if at all.

 

[TrickyDick]

I don't understant why you would want to make a 1.080 starter if you're just growing yeast, or why you would need to use dark DME. Starters should be between 1.030 and 1.040 so as not to stress the initial pitch.

You're already at nearly 9% ABV, so any starter is going to have a hard time when tossed into that environment with that much alcohol and nearly zero oxygen. This approach can sometimes work, but it is not guaranteed. I would use WLP099 if you're going to go this route, and even that might not budge it more than a point or two, if at all.

Thanks.

I was thinking a 1.080 starter would help the yeast acclimate to the fermenting/stalled beer so they wouldn't be instantly shocked. I think this is a common Misperception (that high gravity starters are needed for high gravity beer) so thanks for pointing that out. If I do this ill keep it below 1.040

I'm not really interested in growing yeast, I just want them active and ready to eat. I doubt no matter what malt I use for that starter will matter, but its a darkish beer so I figure isn't going to hurt using dark DME. . Since its not an initial pitch, I don't really need a lot of yeast, but just vital and healthy yeast to try to finish off the job.

As far as zero oxygen, the yeast only need that to grow, not to ferment. I don't want to add any oxygen to the beer either. Maybe even pitching a pack of rehydrated dry yeast would be just as effective as making a starter.

I don't think I have very much farther to go, as I mentioned my FFT ended up at 1.027. I don't think any more time in the fermenter as-is, is going to drop the gravity further without some intervention,

TD