The original Lager thread.. Everything you ever wanted to know or ask

[el_caro]

Here you go.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Edel_Hell

Thanks BB

 

[TrickyDick]

Tasted a sample of mine last night, which would be day #16 after pitching yeast. The sweetness noted on day 10 has largely faded but a hint remains. Still cloudy. Some hop presence coming though but very subtle and subdued from pre pitch hydrometer sample. The corn aroma has gone, but still some corny flavor coming through.

What next? I think maybe ill pull a hydrometer sample this weekend and see where she sits. Could be time to dump the yeast from below and ramp down to 32 degrees for lagering. My OG was 1.048. When should i proceed with the lagering phase? i was thinking about a Diacetyl rest but i cannot detect any butterscotch right now, so I might skip this step. Is the a particular gravity or percent attenuation at which I should start to "lager" the beer at?

Once I've done the first yeast dump I'll probably need another yeast dump once she gets to 32 and sits for a few days. I think this yeast gets really chunky so might be tough to get out of the dump hole, and I had planned to just lager it in the conical.

TD

 

[Yooper]

Tasted a sample of mine last night, which would be day #16 after pitching yeast. The sweetness noted on day 10 has largely faded but a hint remains. Still cloudy. Some hop presence coming though but very subtle and subdued from pre pitch hydrometer sample. The corn aroma has gone, but still some corny flavor coming through.

What next? I think maybe ill pull a hydrometer sample this weekend and see where she sits. Could be time to dump the yeast from below and ramp down to 32 degrees for lagering. My OG was 1.048. When should i proceed with the lagering phase? i was thinking about a Diacetyl rest but i cannot detect any butterscotch right now, so I might skip this step. Is the a particular gravity or percent attenuation at which I should start to "lager" the beer at?

Once I've done the first yeast dump I'll probably need another yeast dump once she gets to 32 and sits for a few days. I think this yeast gets really chunky so might be tough to get out of the dump hole, and I had planned to just lager it in the conical.

TD

I'd check again for diacetyl. In HUGE amounts, it is distinctly buttery, but in smaller amounts it's more of an oiliness. If you sample the beer, check for a slick or oily feeling on the tongue or teeth. If there is ANY hint of that at all, do a diacetyl rest. It gets worse with lagering, and then will turn into a butterbomb.

I would proceed with lagering when the beer as been at FG for at least couple of days, whether doing a diacetyl rest or not.

 

[TrickyDick]

I read an article about warming up a sample in a warm water bath to promote the diacetyl precursors converting into diacetyl then chilling and compare to a control, unwarmed sample to test for diacetyl. I also read that to detect it, add drops of artificial butter flavoring to canned BMC type beer to learn what it's supposed to taste like and how to detect it in beer. (By the way head over to snopes and look for artificial raspberry flavoring and see what it's made of..)
I think I'll just do the diacetyl rest and be done with it.
TD

EDIT-

Check the gravity today. Freezer set at 49, but thermowell still reading 47. This thing doesn't want to warm up! Air lock still gurgling plenty, so I'm thinking its NOT going to be finished.
Sample still plenty cloudy. Smells and tastes of corn still - smaller pulls was less noticeable since the last full hydrometer sample.
Adjusted gravity is 1.023 (OG 1.048) so still has a ways to go. Brewed it on a Sunday 3/21, pitched Monday 3/22 before I left for work. So really today its at day #20 post-pitch.
Yeast is rated 68-76% attenuation, with optimal fermentation range 50-55. DOH!
Well, I think I am going to ramp the temp up to 50, and leave the freezer door open for a few hours to help the temp rise a touch.
Right now it sitting at 50% attenuation, so about 2/3rd of the way there. I am really hoping it makes it to 1.010 or even 1.009 for a really easy quaffer.
TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Update-
had dates wrong in last post - April, not March! DOH!

Pitched yeast 4/22 - today is 5/18
last check, last weekend 1.023. I adjusted the temp to 50, and it is at 50, had seen up to 51 F.
Gravity today is 1.020.
Still tastes of creamed corn.
getting worried. Had thought it'd have been done by now. Gonna sit tight, and check it again in a week.

TD

 

[passedpawn]

Hmmm. I had a friend who made a Schwarzbier (lager). Tasted just like creamed corn. It was completely undrinkable. That's DMS, which should be driven from the wort during the boil.

 

[g-star]

Update-
had dates wrong in last post - April, not March! DOH!

Pitched yeast 4/22 - today is 5/18
last check, last weekend 1.023. I adjusted the temp to 50, and it is at 50, had seen up to 51 F.
Gravity today is 1.020.
Still tastes of creamed corn.
getting worried. Had thought it'd have been done by now. Gonna sit tight, and check it again in a week.

TD

You should be worried. This beer should have been done in 7-10 days, not a month. This suggests a problematic fermentation. The creamed corn notes indicate a problem with your hot side process (weak, short, or covered boil).

 

[TrickyDick]

You should be worried. This beer should have been done in 7-10 days, not a month. This suggests a problematic fermentation. The creamed corn notes indicate a problem with your hot side process (weak, short, or covered boil).

I did a 90 minute boil. No cover. Good boil rate. No corny flavors at the outset, only after fermentation began.
I am wondering if the temp controller thermometer is off calibration and I'm fermenting too low, stalling the yeast. It was a healthy and vigorous starter I pitched from a two,stage, 2 vial into 2L then up to 5 L. 90 sec o2 injection.

I agree something is wrong but trying to figure out where I went wrong so it won't happen again.

TD

 

[winvarin]

What yeast did you use? I had a 3l start from 2 vials of WLP 800 take 5 weeks to get a wort from 1.054 to 1.012. It stalled on me a number of times if I got it much below 52.

I fermented it side by side with the other half of the same wort using saflager 34/70. The saflager finished faster and 2 points lower than the 800.

The 800 was stalled at about 1018 until I warmed it to 62f and roused it once a day for about 4-5 days. It tasted sweet right up until about 1018. And my fear was DMS, until I dissolved a little pilsner DME in some water and tasted them side by side. I realized what I was tasting was residual sweetness and not DMS.

The light sweetness went away when I finally got it to go those final 6 points. Is it possible you're just stalled and still have some malt sweetness behind?

 

[winvarin]

And FWIW, I would get one of those stick on thermometers. They seem to be a pretty accurate indicator of beer temp. For both ales and lagers, I have learned that my differential between my controller's set point and the temp on my stick on thermometer is about 4 degrees. Over time, I've just learned to account for that when setting my controller.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks for the advice.


I think I used two vials of yeast for the starter. I used yeastcalc.com with the jamil stir plate option and two stages. WLP 838.
The starter fermented out faster than any other starter I've ever made,
I think my issues stem from a couple of things.

First off I cold pitched at 45 and let it free rise up to 49. However, my thermo well temp probe is sitting in the fermenter and 11 gallons of liquid. It never raised to 49 like I thought it would. By the time I noticed, was a week. I tried to leave door open a bit, maybe an hour, to warm up. It then fluctuated between 47-49 for at least another week. I realized that it was still fermenting too low, below optimal temps. So I bumped it to 51, and its been there a week now. I think I'll bump it to 52' and verify temp controller accuracy with a pulled sample of beer and an accurate thermometer.

Also I think I'll sanitize a spoon and try to stir up the yeast a bit through the fermenter lid, to try and get things going. I have used my IR thermometer on the conical, and I am dubious of its accuracy on stainless steel, but there is a temp differential between the top of the fermenter and the bottom. It's hard to know exactly where the beer level is inside, but even still I was shocked by the differential in temps, at least 10 degrees, much much colder at the bottom.

TD

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the advice.


I think I used two vials of yeast for the starter. I used yeastcalc.com with the jamil stir plate option and two stages. WLP 838.
The starter fermented out faster than any other starter I've ever made,
I think my issues stem from a couple of things.

First off I cold pitched at 45 and let it free rise up to 49. However, my thermo well temp probe is sitting in the fermenter and 11 gallons of liquid. It never raised to 49 like I thought it would. By the time I noticed, was a week. I tried to leave door open a bit, maybe an hour, to warm up. It then fluctuated between 47-49 for at least another week. I realized that it was still fermenting too low, below optimal temps. So I bumped it to 51, and its been there a week now. I think I'll bump it to 52' and verify temp controller accuracy with a pulled sample of beer and an accurate thermometer.

Also I think I'll sanitize a spoon and try to stir up the yeast a bit through the fermenter lid, to try and get things going. I have used my IR thermometer on the conical, and I am dubious of its accuracy on stainless steel, but there is a temp differential between the top of the fermenter and the bottom. It's hard to know exactly where the beer level is inside, but even still I was shocked by the differential in temps, at least 10 degrees, much much colder at the bottom.

TD

Before you stir (I wouldn't!), have you verified your hydrometer reading that the beer is slowed/stalled?

 

[winvarin]

I agree with Yooper on stirring. I ferment in better bottles. When I rouse, it's completely closed to the outside air. I just rock the BB back and forth gently until I see it begin to swirl an the yeast cake kicks up off the bottom. You'd be surprised at how little movement it takes to resuspend recently flocced yeast.

Check gravity like Yooper suggests. if your gravity is still too high and you have no option to roust without introducing O2, you can always try bumping the temp up a few degrees to try to wake the yeast back up. If you've made it past halfway of your anticipated attenuation, your flavor/aroma profile shouldn't be significantly altered by finishing up warmer.

 

[TrickyDick]

I am at 1.020 started at 1.048 expect 1.011FG but hoping for 1.010 or even less. So am over half attenuated. Have verified hydro reading.

I'm fermenting in a conical so it's pretty heavy with 11 gallons of beer.

I will rock it a bit and bump up temp to 55

Thanks for help. I think that there is a strong possibility that my fridge is running colder than the temp controller probe indicates.

Will pick up a temp strip next time I'm shopping.

TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

Sorry for the Fermenting issues TD. That really blows...I have Kai's Helles batch right now that's at 1.015-16. It's been fermenting since last Sunday. The temp was about 47-48F. I thought I raised the temp in the lager chamber yesterday to 63 for a D-rest, but I guess I forgot. I pulled it out of the freezer now and I will probably keg it tomorrow or Tuesday. As I mentioned before, this Helles batch that I'm drinking right now is probably the best I've ever made. I hope I can keep the consistency. I have a keg that's been lagering for a week or so and this new batch. If I can keep this quality, I'll start making 10 gallon batches. Keep going man, Don't give up. I wish you were closer, I'd like for you to try it.

 

[Schindl2]

A lot of good info in this thread. I have been brewing for a couple of years, but have only done ales (I've stayed away from lagers because I haven't had the fridge space, etc.). I am looking to try my first lager and had a couple of questions. My first was is ok to lager in a keg rather than in a carboy? From some of the discussion in this thread it sounds like that is pretty common and not an issue, but just wanted to make sure. My second is how do most keep their beer at the lower temps during primary? With ales I have never worried about temp too much because letting them ferment in my basement has always been fine. With a lager, though, the primary is supposed to be in the 50's usually (right?). So, do most use a water bath? If that is the case is it just a matter of putting the primary vessel in cool water and adding ice as needed to keep the temp where it is supposed to be? Thanks for any tips.

 

[TrickyDick]

Sorry for the Fermenting issues TD. That really blows...I have Kai's Helles batch right now that's at 1.015-16. It's been fermenting since last Sunday. The temp was about 47-48F. I thought I raised the temp in the lager chamber yesterday to 63 for a D-rest, but I guess I forgot. I pulled it out of the freezer now and I will probably keg it tomorrow or Tuesday. As I mentioned before, this Helles batch that I'm drinking right now is probably the best I've ever made. I hope I can keep the consistency. I have a keg that's been lagering for a week or so and this new batch. If I can keep this quality, I'll start making 10 gallon batches. Keep going man, Don't give up. I wish you were closer, I'd like for you to try it.

Mine hit 1.016 today, so its moving in the right direction. With luck I'll be finished next weekend and can move along to diacetyl rest, and then lagering stages.

The corny flavor is starting to weaken.

TD

 

[Yooper]

A lot of good info in this thread. I have been brewing for a couple of years, but have only done ales (I've stayed away from lagers because I haven't had the fridge space, etc.). I am looking to try my first lager and had a couple of questions. My first was is ok to lager in a keg rather than in a carboy? From some of the discussion in this thread it sounds like that is pretty common and not an issue, but just wanted to make sure. My second is how do most keep their beer at the lower temps during primary? With ales I have never worried about temp too much because letting them ferment in my basement has always been fine. With a lager, though, the primary is supposed to be in the 50's usually (right?). So, do most use a water bath? If that is the case is it just a matter of putting the primary vessel in cool water and adding ice as needed to keep the temp where it is supposed to be? Thanks for any tips.

I think many lager brewers have fermentation controllers, like an old fridge with a temperature controller, to hold it at 48-52 degrees during fermentation.

I can do it in my basement in the winter, but not in the summer. In the winter, I can do it with water bottles and a water bath but in the summer it's too warm to try to do that.

 

[Bulls Beers]

+1 on Yoopers comment. It's pretty tough to do lagers if you can't get close to the low 50's. I brew pretty much only lagers and temp is everything. I hold the fermentation temp at 48. Since I've been holding temp from brew day to lagering, my beers have been coming out excellent.

 

[Bulls Beers]

Mine hit 1.016 today, so its moving in the right direction. With luck I'll be finished next weekend and can move along to diacetyl rest, and then lagering stages.

The corny flavor is starting to weaken.

TD

Great to hear...I hope it comes out amazing.

 

[passedpawn]

+1 on Yoopers comment. It's pretty tough to do lagers if you can't get close to the low 50's. I brew pretty much only lagers and temp is everything. I hold the fermentation temp at 48. Since I've been holding temp from brew day to lagering, my beers have been coming out excellent.

I do a lot of lagers and I agree. They are a finicky beer. You want some maltiness, but it needs to be crisp and clear too.

I'm drinking one right now!

 

[TrickyDick]

So tonight I am going to test the gravity again. I believe it will be near terminal if not terminal.


Regardless of where its at, it is getting a diacetyl rest until next weekend, when I rack into kegs, and replace with an octoberfest brew.
I was planning to rack right onto the old yeast cake and stir with a sanitized spoon then oxygenate. I am not sure what the protocol is for oxygenating here. Normally I wouldn't oxygenate once pitched. But since this would be done basically simultaneously, I figured why not. I might consider dumping from the concial to collect the yeast, and washing it, and then trying to measure the amount of yeast cell volume via the mr malty calculator. That just seems like more ways to introduce error and contamination. I also got a stick on tape type thermometer to monitor the fermentation temp, and will try to calibrate the thermo well temp or at least determine how many degrees its off cal. I think I am also going to abandon the thermo well and just tape the probe to the conical. I am planning to use freezer tape, but still have concerns that its going to fall off the conical sidewall.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

OK so the final, and probably terminal gravity is 1.019.

The OG was 1.048.

The expected attenuation was maximally 76% per whitelabs website. I assume this is apparent attenuation. For my brew I am at 60%. The range given for my yeast was 68-76% SO I am low.

I don't think its going to get much lower.

Well, what happened? I don't know. My other brews all attenuate correctly. I pitched a very generous and healthy starter. I oxygenated (90 sec) . Maybe I OVER oxygenated? Maybe my mash temps were incorrect, though I double check the PID/thermocouple temps with the integrated mash tun bimetallic BrewMometer, and also intermittentely with a handheld probe that is highly accurate (Thermapen).

Maybe my yeast flocculated out because my fermenter temp was too low. I have not yet verified the thermocouple temp controller accuracy.

At any rate, it is now doing a diacetly rest. Maybe the increased temps will cause fermentation to start up again, and re-suspend some yeast due to CO2 release. Who knows.. But I need the fermentation space so its either gonna fly or die.

Next up, an Oktoberfest.

Any suggestions welcomed.

Maybe its time to buy a Dissolved Oxygen meter.....

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Brewed Oktoberfest yesterday.

10# vienna
6# munich
5# pils
1# aromatic
pinch carahell
Was planning to brew this with a enhanced double decoction, but added the aromatic instead and did direct fire mash tun heated step mash instead.

est 28 IBU Hersbrucker single 60 min addition

Mashed 100 dough in, 133 protein rest x 20, 156 x 20, 168x10.

Smelled, looked, and tasted good. OG was a tad low, but minimal soot (see below) this time. I attribute to my lack of mash stirring. about 3 points below where I was shooting. Ended up 1.056 Pre boil gravity also low though, so maybe I had poor water volume calculations or measurements.

racked onto yeast cake from Munich Helles. Couldn't chill below mid - low 60's and pitching was just racking the chiller output into conical, so ferm probably started a bit high. Was down to mid 50's by end of night though. sitting at 52 degrees now, and probably since late last night.
Got the temp controller probe taped to the side instead of as a thermowell. Reading on temp controller seems to match the stick on thermometer I bought.

The Munich Helles is probably flawed. I kegged 10 gallons, plus numerous hydrometer samples and still had about 24 oz leftover. This indicated the corn taste is probably from insufficient boil rate. Also missed target gravity, too low, by two points. That was the inaugural brew for the new burners, and some mini jets were slightly loose, with moderate soot on the boil kettle I noted. In hindsight, I probably should have washed the yeast first to rinse out any residual DMS flavor. Too late now.
After the DiAcetyl rest for a week, I cold crashed to 38 degrees, and saw renewed airlock activity which was odd. FG now down to just a hare below 1.015. Oddly Refractometer reads a 6.2 Brix, which converted to 1.010 from OG 1.048.

Used a little less oxygenation, by time, this go around, and shaked the concial like crazy hauling it to the ferm freezer where I oxygenated it. I'm planning a double bock next and then a mai bock once this is finished, then try another munich helles or german pilsner (or both) in my rotation.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

So I tested the Oktoberfest today. 1 week after brewing
OG was 1.056
SG now by corrected hydrometer reading (actual temp 64F) 1.021, by refractometer 1.018 (corrected).

Seems like I might be doing something wrong. Been fermenting at 52F. The bad part is that I have NO IDEA what I might be doing "wrong".

Maybe its just too early to tell. I'll re-check in a week, though next weekend is HPDE time so might be more than day 14.

I'm not giving up on lagers. I wonder if switching to SafLager Dry Yeast would help. The temp strip on the conical indicates the same temp as the temp controller. No thermowell this time.

TD

EDIT- JB indicated that they tested the temp strips to an RTD probe, accurate within .1ºF and not significantly different than using a thermowell when tested against one.

bumped temp to 58ºF on the ferm freezer after I posted the last msg, and checked again today, 4 days later. Still at 1.021 by hydrometer reading. Can the CO2 in the hydroflask significantly affect the SG? Anyways, marching onwards. Thinking that the next lager on this yeast gonna get a couple packets of Saflager to the mix.

TD

 

[MoreCowbell]

Help!

I made an extract with steeped grains using Wyeast Bohemian Lager Strain

Primary for 2 weeks at 67 degrees.
Secondary for 3 weeks at 35 degrees
Bottled with 5oz corn sugar.

2 weeks......no carbonation????

 

[MoreCowbell]

Help!

I made an extract with steeped grains using Wyeast Bohemian Lager Strain

Primary for 2 weeks at 67 degrees.
Secondary for 3 weeks at 35 degrees
Bottled with 5oz corn sugar.

2 weeks......no carbonation????

I should add that the bottles have been around 65 and ther is no sediment at all.

 

[beerdragon]

I should add that the bottles have been around 65 and ther is no sediment at all.

Either it's not ready yet or the beer needs to be warmed up a few degrees. I'd move half the batch to a warmer spot, give each bottle a swirl, and let it be.

 

[MoreCowbell]

Sent a few home to a buddy who helped on my last brew day. His were in the mid to upper 70's and turned out great



I'll swirl and warm and RDWHAH

 

[MoreCowbell]

Good thing I had a controlled experiment going without knowing it