The Misunderstanding of the World's Best Beers

[slym2none]

balance is a myth and plays no part in the majority of beers yet is always brought up in the ipa/dipa conversation. Very strange.

You never hear this when people discuss belgians, sours, barleywines, fest beers, etc.

+100000

 

[slym2none]

Chasing beer is fun, many of us have done it, but in the end it is silly when you can BYO. Temperature control and kegs... that's about all you need to hit absolute home runs every time.

^^Eternal Truth^^

I had PtE out of a bottle, and it was just fine. I imagine that somehow, that level of quality can be achieved by a homebrewer using bottles.

 

[Blue-Frog]

zzzap!

 

[brewfun]

Balance is a myth and plays no part in the majority of beers yet is always brought up in the IPA/DIPA conversation. Very strange.

You never hear this when people discuss Belgians, sours, barleywines, fest beers, etc.

In beer flavor, "balance" is the shorthand term for "transitions of flavors within a sip." Even if the transitions are all within one flavor group (hop related, yeast related, special ingredient, etc.) they still describe that beers' balance. This leaves room for transitions through the whole glass that can then be called "complexity."

In Belgian beers, balance is described as "digestability." In Sours, it's "juiciness" or "hardness" of the sour character.

To put it another way, each of the "greatest" craft beers can be described uniquely from another example. Contrast that with mass lagers where the flavors are so similar that one can't be easily differentiated from any other. So, there is a point at which being too balanced becomes blandness.

 

[beersk]

Balance is a myth and plays no part in the majority of beers yet is always brought up in the IPA/DIPA conversation. Very strange.

You never hear this when people discuss Belgians, sours, barleywines, fest beers, etc.

That's because you're not paying attention. I say that kind of stuff a lot.


My opinion on these super hoppy beers is that most people who drink them have destroyed their palates to the point where that's the only thing they can taste. They don't drink balanced beers much because, "there's no flavor, wah".

 

[Gameface]

That's because you're not paying attention. I say that kind of stuff a lot.


My opinion on these super hoppy beers is that most people who drink them have destroyed their palates to the point where that's the only thing they can taste. They don't drink balanced beers much because, "there's no flavor, wah".

So strong flavors destroy palates?

Yeah, I think you're wrong on that one.

 

[1977Brewer]

That's because you're not paying attention. I say that kind of stuff a lot.


My opinion on these super hoppy beers is that most people who drink them have destroyed their palates to the point where that's the only thing they can taste. They don't drink balanced beers much because, "there's no flavor, wah".

Pretty sure I can still taste things.

 

[beersk]

So strong flavors destroy palates?

Yeah, I think you're wrong on that one.

Yes, haven't you heard about the lupulin threshold shift?

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Yes, haven't you heard about the lupulin threshold shift?

This!

What a pain. It sucks being a victim. All my IPAs have excessive amounts of expensive hops now. PtE tastes like a pale ale. A delicious pale ale, but still not what it used to be.

 

[Gameface]

Yes, haven't you heard about the lupulin threshold shift?

Do the people who experience that lose the ability to taste anything but lupulin?

Please get off your high horse already.

 

[hunter_le five]

I had a double IPA homebrew recently which the brewer claimed used 24oz of hops... for a 5 gallon batch. That's a pound and a half. Most of my homebrews use 2-5oz. There where more hops by weight in the recipe than specialty grains. Not sure if the guy's a Lupulin Shift victim, or just likes hops.

I'm not a hop head, but it was a damned good beer. I can only imagine how much that brew must have cost to make, though.

 

[drainbamage]

I had a double IPA homebrew recently which the brewer claimed used 24oz of hops... for a 5 gallon batch. That's a pound and a half. Most of my homebrews use 2-5oz. There where more hops by weight in the recipe than specialty grains. Not sure if the guy's a Lupulin Shift victim, or just likes hops.

I'm not a hop head, but it was a damned good beer. I can only imagine how much that brew must have cost to make, though.

That would have to be all hop bursting and dry hops, wouldn't it?

But yes, that had to be expensive as hell.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

So strong flavors destroy palates?

Yeah, I think you're wrong on that one.

Do you ever go from a DIPA down to a cream ale while drinking? Or a RIS to a light lager? Maybe I've just heard people repeat the same thing incorrectly but everything I've heard you go from least intense to a highly intense flavors while tasting beers.

If you take what Beersk is saying at face value, of course DIPAs don't destroy our pallates permanently otherwise the first time you burn your tongue with hot coffee you would never taste food for the rest of your life. If you drink a big fat RIS or a oak aged barleywine or a super smokey rauchbier or a huge 120IBU FG 1.009 DIPA, then go and try something like a witbier/light lager/cream ale, your palate will be way way off. I personally after drinking an IPA only really feel like drinking IPAs or other fairly dry styles, going from IPA to a dunkelweizen is really not fun, makes the dunkelweizen taste like I'm drinking sugar water.

The only time I've had truly religious experiences was drinking the classics from the trappist breweries. I do like IPAs and the occaisonal DIPAs and understand the hype but I never plan on drinking any of the big ones, except for maybe Zombie Dust because I have 1lb of citra pellets that may be destined for a Zombie Dust clone.

 

[hunter_le five]

That would have to be all hop bursting and dry hops, wouldn't it?

But yes, that had to be expensive as hell.

I think he said "only" 4 or 5 oz was for bittering, and the rest were at flameout or dryhops.

 

[Gameface]

Do you ever go from a DIPA down to a cream ale while drinking? Or a RIS to a light lager? Maybe I've just heard people repeat the same thing incorrectly but everything I've heard you go from least intense to a highly intense flavors while tasting beers.

If you take what Beersk is saying at face value, of course DIPAs don't destroy our pallates permanently otherwise the first time you burn your tongue with hot coffee you would never taste food for the rest of your life. If you drink a big fat RIS or a oak aged barleywine or a super smokey rauchbier or a huge 120IBU FG 1.009 DIPA, then go and try something like a witbier/light lager/cream ale, your palate will be way way off. I personally after drinking an IPA only really feel like drinking IPAs or other fairly dry styles, going from IPA to a dunkelweizen is really not fun, makes the dunkelweizen taste like I'm drinking sugar water.

The only time I've had truly religious experiences was drinking the classics from the trappist breweries. I do like IPAs and the occaisonal DIPAs and understand the hype but I never plan on drinking any of the big ones, except for maybe Zombie Dust because I have 1lb of citra pellets that may be destined for a Zombie Dust clone.

I have gone from drinking a DIPA to a Scottish ale out of my taps and I enjoyed the Scottish ale a lot. Was able to taste the maltiness just fine.

 

[AK7007]

Contrast that with mass lagers where the flavors are so similar that one can't be easily differentiated from any other. So, there is a point at which being too balanced becomes blandness.

I actually disagree with that idea that mass lagers are hard to differentiate. It happened randomly when there was a mess of beer left over from a party while camping, but myself and like 10 other people started passing around coors, pabst, kirkland light (couldn't believe costco has a brand), and miller - we were blown away by the differences. I would say that the lightness made it easier to quickly identify blind than the wide plethora of IPAs that focus on Centennial, Chinook, and Cascade.

 

[Gameface]

I actually disagree with that idea that mass lagers are hard to differentiate. It happened randomly when there was a mess of beer left over from a party while camping, but myself and like 10 other people started passing around coors, pabst, kirkland light (couldn't believe costco has a brand), and miller - we were blown away by the differences. I would say that the lightness made it easier to quickly identify blind than the wide plethora of IPAs that focus on Centennial, Chinook, and Cascade.

I'd say to try a double blind taste test on the mass market lagers and see how well you can pick one from the other.

 

[AK7007]

I'd say to try a double blind taste test on the mass market lagers and see how well you can pick one from the other.

Doubt I could pick out specifics - but the sheer corniness of some vs the sweetness of others means that triangle tests would probably show the odd one out fairly often.

 

[iijakii]

Do the same with IPA -- they all run together tasting a bunch in a row.

Either way, IPAs and lagers are both delicious and not due to 'balance' in either IMHO. Lagers for being crisp and refreshing, if you want to call that balance then...

 

[Psylocide]

Do you ever go from a DIPA down to a cream ale while drinking? Or a RIS to a light lager? Maybe I've just heard people repeat the same thing incorrectly but everything I've heard you go from least intense to a highly intense flavors while tasting beers.

If you take what Beersk is saying at face value, of course DIPAs don't destroy our pallates permanently otherwise the first time you burn your tongue with hot coffee you would never taste food for the rest of your life. If you drink a big fat RIS or a oak aged barleywine or a super smokey rauchbier or a huge 120IBU FG 1.009 DIPA, then go and try something like a witbier/light lager/cream ale, your palate will be way way off. I personally after drinking an IPA only really feel like drinking IPAs or other fairly dry styles, going from IPA to a dunkelweizen is really not fun, makes the dunkelweizen taste like I'm drinking sugar water.

The only time I've had truly religious experiences was drinking the classics from the trappist breweries. I do like IPAs and the occaisonal DIPAs and understand the hype but I never plan on drinking any of the big ones, except for maybe Zombie Dust because I have 1lb of citra pellets that may be destined for a Zombie Dust clone.

Yeah... but it only takes like 3 gulps (basically 1 beer) to "reset" your palate.

So, if I go from a big DIPA or really any IPA to Busch Light, the Busch Light - at first - tastes like straight up aluminum bananas.

Two more drinks, it's back to normal.

Just like the fact that it takes more than a 4 oz taste of a big DIPA or IPA to appreciate the flavor. You gotta coat the mouth, then start picking out flavors.

I think the same goes for most beers.

 

[day_trippr]

Meh. Another "I don't like IPAs" thread...in thin disguise...

Cheers!

 

[Dmlsys23]

Balance is essential. It’s interesting that the topic is best beers and most of the discussion is on insanely over-hopped pales.



I was a BJCP judge for Imperial IPA this year. Pliny the Elder is the poster child for this style. Personally I’m loving the Ruination.





It’s possible that a hop bomb might win in a smaller competition, but given a choice, I think most judges would pick the one that has enough backbone to hold up the hops.



I think that eventually the pendulum will swing back re IPA, and people will increasingly ask, “Where’s the beer?”.



The best beers I’ve tasted were homebrews. One was an English Barleywine, the other was a Dubbel.

They both did ‘the ester dance’. That’s when the esters are so complex and lively that every sip is a little different.



Twice in 40 years, but it keeps me goin’.

Amen! I judged fruit beers last year and had a Belgian Dubbel aged on Sour cherries. Perfect balance of esters to fruit and It was so damned good and I curse myself for not asking the brewer for the recipe on the back of the scoresheet! Best beer I ever had, and I don't even like Belgians a lot of the time. That's how good it was to me.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Yeah... but it only takes like 3 gulps (basically 1 beer) to "reset" your palate.

So, if I go from a big DIPA or really any IPA to Busch Light, the Busch Light - at first - tastes like straight up aluminum bananas.

Two more drinks, it's back to normal.

Just like the fact that it takes more than a 4 oz taste of a big DIPA or IPA to appreciate the flavor. You gotta coat the mouth, then start picking out flavors.

I think the same goes for most beers.

I was merely stating the generally accepted practice for ordering a flight of beers for a tasting (unless you are ordering the flight in some specific manner to showcase something about the grouping of beers). People can and should drink in whatever manner that pleases them in whatever order they want.

Edit: Obviously anecdotal: Myself and quite a few people I know need more than a couple gulps of the next drink or water/oyster crackers to reset my palate, I consider myself to have an "average" palate at best so I am no super taster or anything.

 

[worlddivides]

There's a ton of nonsense in this thread. Douple IPAs ruin your palate? Does eating spicy food mean you cannot taste anything that isn't spicy? Does eating sour food mean you cannot eat anything that isn't sour? Once you start eating salty food, you can never eat anything that isn't drenched in salt? Of course not.

I'm a huge fan of pale ales, IPAs, and Double IPAs, but I oftentimes will get a beer haul that includes Double IPAs, Russian Imperial Stouts, lagers, sour ales, kolsches, porters, and more.

If you don't like IPAs or Double IPAs, then don't drink them. It's that simple. But claiming that hopheads can't appreciate a good lager, a good dubbel, or a good lambic is just ignorant.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

I had PtE out of a bottle, and it was just fine. I imagine that somehow, that level of quality can be achieved by a homebrewer using bottles.

PTE is not bottle-conditioned, that is the difference

 

[Psylocide]

I was merely stating the generally accepted practice for ordering a flight of beers for a tasting (unless you are ordering the flight in some specific manner to showcase something about the grouping of beers). People can and should drink in whatever manner that pleases them in whatever order they want.

I hear you, but still think the standard 4-6 oz flight glasses do no justice to a single brew.

 

[Gameface]

When it comes to declaring a beer "the best beer in the world" or whatever, you can bet that's it's not going to be a simple well balanced beer. Level of difficulty is going to be one of the biggest considerations. Just like in gymnastics, you can forgive a little wobble on the landing if the level of difficulty was off the charts, but a flawless performance at a low level of difficulty isn't even going to be in the running.

Just like in music, level of difficulty might impress those who also perform but often doesn't really sound all that great, see people way overdoing the National Anthem to show how good they are at singing.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I hear you, but still think the standard 4-6 oz flight glasses do no justice to a single brew.

Damn straight, I never really liked IPAs... until I really started going into trying and tasting them. Started with New Glarus Moon Man Pale Ale and Bell's Two Hearted then moved up the scale from there (in my opinion nothing beats a rye IPA with big rye character, or a black IPA). IPA/DIPA is definitely a style you need to drink *a lot* of to figure them out (homebrewing IPAs really helped bring it home for me since I could try the same recipe from the same batch over and over).

Like gameface just stated, as soon as you hear "best in the world" you will be invariably disappointed. If someone said "this is the best blue cheese in the world here try it" I would promptly throw up in their face. Start with the low/medium tier IPAs to get an idea of what is a "bad" IPA to figure out what makes a good IPA.

I wonder if theres been a decrease in beer drinkers "growing up" on yellowpeewater keystone light/BMC beers, so when they 'grow up' on decent craft beer they don't have that really low bar to compare to. When you play beer pong with 3 30packs of keystone line 4 nights a week for a couple years straight you make a comparison "this beer is bad, but its not as bad as keystone light".

 

[beersk]

Do the people who experience that lose the ability to taste anything but lupulin?

Please get off your high horse already.

Well, I'm just sayin', this is my observation. People just need their beers to be bigger and bolder all the time and don't appreciate the subtle qualities in a style like helles.

And you will likely never catch me on a horse.

 

[Psylocide]

Well, I'm just sayin', this is my observation. People[who?] just need their beers to be bigger and bolder all the time and don't appreciate the subtle qualities in a style like helles.[citation needed, ambiguous]

And you will likely never catch me on a horse.

ftfy