The Lager Jacket

[aaronwalls]

What he is doing is gauging market interest, and probably also figuring out what google adwords are working by looking at where people are clicking from to get to his website. When you click on the "order now" that just sends him an email or logs an entry that says "this guy was willing to pay $XX".

Then he will do an analysis after a month or whatever to figure out what price to charge to get the most profit.

That is correct, we have working prototypes, but before we make the move to manufacture we need to know if it makes sense to even go that far. In which case the feedback here, unless we can get it down to 32F, it won't be as valuable to this community.

 

[nm999]

The pictures on the website are photoshopped! Show us the real thing even if it is in the prototype phase. That might boost confidence in your product.

 

[motobrewer]

That is correct, we have working prototypes, but before we make the move to manufacture we need to know if it makes sense to even go that far. In which case the feedback here, unless we can get it down to 32F, it won't be as valuable to this community.

not as valuable, but certainly useful. my basement right now is 55F and doesn't get much hotter than 70F in the summer.

but yes, it's all about price. i'd have a real hard time paying anything over $100. once you start getting into the cost of a chest freezer, it starts to lose its value.

 

[weirdboy]

For me I'd be willing to pay more, but only because I don't have the space for a chest freezer or refrigerator.

The way this works would make it extremely convenient to just stick the fermenter in a cabinet with a hole drilled in it for access to the power cord. I could just stick it in with the rest of my brewing equipment rather than needing a dedicated fermentation chamber or chest freezer.

However, I don't use carboys, so if I can't get it to fit on a bucket then it's not very useful to me.

 

[aaronwalls]

The pictures on the website are photoshopped! Show us the real thing even if it is in the prototype phase. That might boost confidence in your product.

Yes, the picture is an artist rendition of the final design. We'll update the site as we progress.

 

[aaronwalls]

However, I don't use carboys, so if I can't get it to fit on a bucket then it's not very useful to me.

We'll have different jacket sizes available, so buckets won't be an issue.

 

[Vector]

Sounds interesting.
It might be good for ale fermentation during the summer when daytime temps are above 70 degrees.
Probably better than blowing air over ice in a ferm chamber.

Keep us updated!

 

[motobrewer]

where is the temp probe placed?

a provision to have a remote probe with ~5ft lead length so you could send it down a thermowell would be nice

 

[weirdboy]

Ah I have a technical question:

How does the insulation layer actually benefit the design? Assuming the inner layer is actually a peltier device, it seems like any insulation would keep the heat inside, rather than helping to cool it.

 

[Shooter]

Thanks for the information on this! I'll be keeping an eye on the site for future updates.

 

[Homercidal]

I think it's very cool device! I also think that not everyone here would get use out of it. But I think that it has it's place.

For me, I now have a freezer that (cross fingers) I will be making into a lagering chest. But that will only work well for one type of beer - Lager. If I wanted to make an ale, I'd have to either get another fridge/freezer, or mess around with swamp cooler.

With one of these, I could lager in the freezer AND ferment a batch of Ale in the house.

I had actually recently started studying the potential for using peltiers for a single bucket fermenting chamber. I think that idea has potential, but for me to get off the shelf parts, the prices was not much less than buying a small fridge and a controller. The real unique feature would have been the small footprint.

So, yeah, if that price were around $100, and could get down to 32-ish, I think it could be a winner. As it is, I think most would like it under $100 and then it would really be bought for Ales.

Don't forget, many of the people who homebrew beer are also into it for the DIY aspect.

 

[Shooter]

Yeah, I like the fact that it doesn't take up much room. I was looking at some way to keep a keg at cellar temperatures, because I want to install a beer engine. The problem is, I don't really have a lot of room left.

 

[Airborneguy]

In which case the feedback here, unless we can get it down to 32F, it won't be as valuable to this community.

Don't get me wrong, 32F isn't the only thing I would consider it for. I just wouldn't pay over $100 for something that only does primary temps.

An ale version that could keep a steady fermentation temperature at an affordable price would also be a gold mine, but again, most people have low-cost ways of doing this already, so you would have to sell for the right price.

My set-up already allows for me to easily keep ale temps, and the footprint is the size of a small Home Depot plastic bin (because it is one!) For me to spend money on this for ale temps, it would have to be around $75. For lager primary only, around $100.

My comment was more to point out what you could make if it could hit 32F. That would be huge because there is no real way around having a freezer, which for some people has too big of a footprint for their brewing space.

Most people here are saying they wouldn't buy it because a freezer costs about the same, but consider all of the apartment brewers who don't have money as a concern, but space: "$200 for something the size of my carboy that allows me to lager? I'll pay $300 for that!"

But the key is it must be able to lager, because if you still need a fridge to lager, what good is something that gives you the lager primary temperature?

 

[Shooter]

But the key is it must be able to lager, because if you still need a fridge to lager, what good is something that gives you the lager primary temperature?

To keep my keg at cellar temp without having to move in a whole new fridge!!

 

[Airborneguy]

To keep my keg at cellar temp without having to move in a whole new fridge!!

I already have a freezer also, so I could use it to primary one and use the freezer to lager the other, which is what I think you are getting at.

But for that, I wouldn't pay too much because I can already do it in other ways. What I meant was that if it went all the way down to 32F, he would get the market on people who don't have room for a freezer.

 

[Shooter]

I already have a freezer also, so I could use it to primary one and use the freezer to lager the other, which is what I think you are getting at.

But for that, I wouldn't pay too much because I can already do it in other ways. What I meant was that if it went all the way down to 32F, he would get the market on people who don't have room for a freezer.

The market would definitely be more expansive with a wider temperature range. I do all my fermenting and lagering in one dorm fridge, my tiny freezer is filled with kegs I'm dispensing. I would mostly want this to keep cask ales cool on a beer engine, but could also use it to ferment ales or lagers during the time period when my fermentation refrigerator is otherwise occupied. It's definitely not a one stop solution, but, at the right price, I would be interested in one.

 

[ScubaSteve]

This would be really nice to jacket a high end piece of gear, like a conical...the jackets I've seen at B3 are bulky and require glycol....so there's a market there for sure. But for something as small as a carboy, it's just too expensive. You could only use this on one at a time. For the same price, you can get a chest freezer, which will also serve as a kegerator.

JMO...I'm all about innovation!

 

[meadowstream]

Aaron - this looks great. Will the jacket fit over a 15.5g Sankey key (what many of us use for fermentation?) Can you feed the temperatures to the jacket from an element that is slid into a thermowell so that the jacket is controlling temperate to the center of the beer instead of the outside of the fermenter? Thanks Aaron!

 

[theonetrueruss]

Thanks for the explanations Aaron. Hopefully you wind up coming in at a price point that works for the market. Maybe it will work for me or not.. but I'm a bit cheap. (I'd fall into the needs to be less that $100 to consider category) That is exactly the kind of product the home brew community needs though.. It takes up little space and meets a big need. I'll still be making a fermentation chamber but maybe one day will wind up with a couple of those as well. Being able to independently control temps in each carboy seems advantageous.

 

[weirdboy]

This would be really nice to jacket a high end piece of gear, like a conical...the jackets I've seen at B3 are bulky and require glycol....so there's a market there for sure. But for something as small as a carboy, it's just too expensive. You could only use this on one at a time. For the same price, you can get a chest freezer, which will also serve as a kegerator.

JMO...I'm all about innovation!

This is really good thinking. One of the main reasons I have never really considered using a conical is due to the problems I'd have keeping it under temperature control.

 

[aaronwalls]

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. The current design incorporates a thermowell so the temp is regulated from the center and not at the wall where the cooling is. So far as larger sizes, it's possible but will require further testing as power requirements will increase greatly with those volumes.

 

[meadowstream]

Aaron,

I do not feel that too much of a temperature difference is required by many of us. Many of us fermenter in our basements where the temperatures vary from 60-70 degrees from Winter to Summer. The ability to reduce a 15.5 gallon keg of beer from 70 deg to 65 deg or from 60 degrees to 55 degrees could be huge. 5-10 degrees might not seem like much, but to me it would be hugely helpful.

Do you think you could apply a jacket to a larger vessel and, with more power, be able to reduce the temperature of those larger volumes? What is the science behind these jackets?

FWIW, I would buy several jackets to fit kegs even with a modest 5-10 degree benefit. 20 degrees would be incredible.

 

[fartingdog]

Funny- I was just talking about this exact idea to product designer friend recently, but I lack the ability to engineer something like this! I have pages and sketches of notes and the big question was how to get the peltier to work effectively w/ a wrap. Good job and I am glad someone is finally doing this! Even if you did steal my idea…

FWIW- the main value I saw for me was to get the lagering temps for primary- I would simply lager in the keg (cuz that's how I roll), but i do see the ultimate value in being able to get the cold temp for the long sleep.

Another thought- have you thought of making it a combo heater/cooler jacket? it would be easy enough to just switch the polarity to the TEC - I believe that's how the B3 conicals work. That would certainly add some value having 1 piece of equip w/ multiple functions.

 

[Ravenshead]

Aaron,

I do not feel that too much of a temperature difference is required by many of us. Many of us fermenter in our basements where the temperatures vary from 60-70 degrees from Winter to Summer. The ability to reduce a 15.5 gallon keg of beer from 70 deg to 65 deg or from 60 degrees to 55 degrees could be huge. 5-10 degrees might not seem like much, but to me it would be hugely helpful.

Do you think you could apply a jacket to a larger vessel and, with more power, be able to reduce the temperature of those larger volumes? What is the science behind these jackets?

FWIW, I would buy several jackets to fit kegs even with a modest 5-10 degree benefit. 20 degrees would be incredible.

Those of us Texas will need the full 20 degrees or more. We don't have have basements so we end up fermenting in garages that can get into the high 90s in the summer.

 

[meadowstream]

Ravenshead - absolutely understand that in warmer climes without basements that the heat transfer requirements will be greater by far than here in New England. Everything needs to be bigger in Texas, right?

 

[Atl300zx]

If some of you have lagering fridges, you could ferment in your fridge, then wrap this around the your carboy and drop the additional 20-30 degrees (as this claims it can do). Then you still have the rest of your space in the fridge to start your next lager.

 

[meadowstream]

Has there been any progress on the jacket?

 

[camiller]

*half-serious mode* My wife is going through menopause, will the jacket be available in her size? *end half-serious mode*

I've thought about building something like a cryo-cuff to pump cold water around a fermentor. In terms of energy usage peltiers have notoriously poor efficiency. Couple that with the fact that the peltier won't be making perfect contact with the side of the carboy plus I see no hint of a heatsink/fan in the product mockup to help move heat away from the hot side (it may be there just not in the picture) and I think there are better ways to accomplish this task.

Nevertheless, best of luck Aaron.

 

[OneFeather]

This has the same effect as I just proposed here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/fermentation-temperature-control-idea-your-thoughts-237689/

Great news. The only addition that I was planning to do is have a dual temp controller and have a small heating pad. It would be great to see you incorporate that into your design. Kinda set it and forget it system. Awesome.

 

[worstbrewing]

I could be wrong, but I think if you reverse polarity on peltier units, it reverses the heat exchange, so if you could hook it up to switch when heat is needed, it'd be (potentially) a pretty effective climate controller all in one... just a thought