The Gruit Beer Thread

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Well, I am brewing a one gallon batch in glass carboy, and I switched it from a blow-off tube to an air lock today. I've only made a few small batches of beer before, and I'm used to seeing some thickish foam on the top. This batch has what almost looks like brown algae stuck to the glass. It's thick, gooey stuff - not at all like foam. Chunks of it fell into the brew when I handled the carboy. Is that normal for a gruit? I assume I have to strain it before I bottle it?

Gruitday3.jpg
 
Thanks. Like I said, I've only brewed a couple of batches before and I haven't seen the yeast get that thick. I appreciate the answers.
 
I have managed to get some dried original kveik from Norway and made a starter out of a bit of it yesterday. Today it was happily fermenting. But never saw such a flocculant yeast before. There are basically big chunks of yeast dancing up and down in the glass.

However, I am thinking about making a gruit with it. First I will make an ipa just to see where I am at and then a gruit might follow.

The starter smells already different than any yeast I had before. Lots of lemon and orange, smells actually pretty nice, I think I will bottle the starter beer (it is hopped)... Again :D
 
Howdy Gruiters!
I am looking start some Gruit, and have been doing a fair bit of research. I have some books on the way as well. I've been through the thread and appreciate the information you guys have put together so far.

I want to brew something up here pretty soon, and am interested in Gruiting a Berliner style beer.

Has anybody done Sour Gruits? I am looking for some ideas to what additions might mesh well with a tart, bready Berliner. I am also not boiling and planning on bringing the wort up to 180F for 20 minutes before chilling. Any concerns with this for extracting from the additions?
 
Howdy Gruiters!
I am looking start some Gruit, and have been doing a fair bit of research. I have some books on the way as well. I've been through the thread and appreciate the information you guys have put together so far.

I want to brew something up here pretty soon, and am interested in Gruiting a Berliner style beer.

Has anybody done Sour Gruits? I am looking for some ideas to what additions might mesh well with a tart, bready Berliner. I am also not boiling and planning on bringing the wort up to 180F for 20 minutes before chilling. Any concerns with this for extracting from the additions?
Howdy Gruiters!
I am looking start some Gruit, and have been doing a fair bit of research. I have some books on the way as well. I've been through the thread and appreciate the information you guys have put together so far.

I want to brew something up here pretty soon, and am interested in Gruiting a Berliner style beer.

Has anybody done Sour Gruits? I am looking for some ideas to what additions might mesh well with a tart, bready Berliner. I am also not boiling and planning on bringing the wort up to 180F for 20 minutes before chilling. Any concerns with this for extracting from the additions?
Grüzi!

All my gruits turned sour... So, yes I did some of those :D

I would recommend mugwort, sweet gale (if I can get it) and most importantly ground ivy.

I would also consider a kettle sour, meaning boiling after the desired tartness is reached, as the gruit might get too sour otherwise. I had some that turned out perfect by accident regarding sourness, but a lot that were just too sour so it might be a good idea to control it at the beginning.
 
Hi, I am a new member, and I am looking into brewing a historical gruit beer, and therefore are looking into brewing with bog myrtle, laurel berries and laserwort. While it is relatively easy to find information on brewing with bog myrtle, I am not so lucky with laurel berries (according to the historic information, the laurel berries and laserwort are used in an even ratio). Would anyone have any experience brewing with dried laurel berries (not bay leaves, the bay laurel fruit)?

Most of the other ingredients listed in this thread are more appropriate for modern gruit, so the detailed brewing information unfortunately does not help my experiment much... Very much looking forward to picking you'all's brain, and thank you!
 
Heard about those two ingredients for the first time. I think you might be mixing up some areas. Bog myrtle was more of a Nordic gruit herb and laserwort apparently was native to north Africa and there's a good chance that it is now extinct.

Not much of help, but maybe useful nonetheless.
 
Hi, I am a new member, and I am looking into brewing a historical gruit beer, and therefore are looking into brewing with bog myrtle, laurel berries and laserwort. While it is relatively easy to find information on brewing with bog myrtle, I am not so lucky with laurel berries (according to the historic information, the laurel berries and laserwort are used in an even ratio). Would anyone have any experience brewing with dried laurel berries (not bay leaves, the bay laurel fruit)?

Most of the other ingredients listed in this thread are more appropriate for modern gruit, so the detailed brewing information unfortunately does not help my experiment much... Very much looking forward to picking you'all's brain, and thank you!

Sorry, I have never heard of those ingredients. It would require a bit of research to find them and how they were used. Do you have those ingredients in hand already? If so, munch on some and see how strong they are. That's always great advice.
 
Heard about those two ingredients for the first time. I think you might be mixing up some areas. Bog myrtle was more of a Nordic gruit herb and laserwort apparently was native to north Africa and there's a good chance that it is now extinct.

Not much of help, but maybe useful nonetheless.

Bog myrtle, also called gagel in native Dutch, is a Low Countries plant used to brew gruit in 9-15th century gruit beer (tho by the 13th c most of northern Low Countries had switched to hopped beer to follow the Hamburg style imported beer). It is the key ingredient in Low Country gruit beer, it is mentioned in every historic purchase account and recipe (description) I have been able to locate. Where bog myrtle (Myrica gale) was not able to grow, marsh rosemary (Ledum palustre) was used. Laserwort was imported from the European mountains, and is a relative of caraway (but not the same).

Yarrow and marsh rosemary are considered Nordic herbs if you want to categorize them that way, I guess. Also, the term laserwort transplanted from a now (likely) extinct plant to Laserpitium siler, which is still available (I have the seeds at home, they smell yummy!). Again, a relative, but not exactly the same.

I recently wrote a paper on historic gruit ale, the ingredients and it's history, so I am well versed in its constituents. What I am lacking is practical brewing experience with these herbs which I hope to find here. Thank you for your information!
 
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Sorry, I have never heard of those ingredients. It would require a bit of research to find them and how they were used. Do you have those ingredients in hand already? If so, munch on some and see how strong they are. That's always great advice.

yes, I have all three in hand. The laurel berries are easy to buy, the bog myrtle I hand harvested myself, and the laserwort seeds I was able to buy from a small seed exchange company (apparently I bought the whole harvest, but I also plan to seed and grow it myself).

And I like the idea of tasting for strength, that is great advice!
Laserwort is a relative of cumin and caraway, so if nothing comes of this question I will look more into those additives. Thank you!
 
Bog myrtle, also called gagel in native Dutch, is a Low Countries plant used to brew gruit in 9-15th century gruit beer (tho by the 13th c most of northern Low Countries had switched to hopped beer to follow the Hamburg style imported beer). It is the key ingredient in Low Country gruit beer, it is mentioned in every historic purchase account and recipe (description) I have been able to locate. Where bog myrtle (Myrica gale) was not able to grow, marsh rosemary (Ledum palustre) was used. Laserwort was imported from the European mountains, and is a relative of caraway (but not the same).

Yarrow and marsh rosemary are considered Nordic herbs if you want to categorize them that way, I guess. Also, the term laserwort transplanted from a now (likely) extinct plant to Laserpitium siler, which is still available (I have the seeds at home, they smell yummy!). Again, a relative, but not exactly the same.

I recently wrote a paper on historic gruit ale, the ingredients and it's history, so I am well versed in its constituents. What I am lacking is practical brewing experience with these herbs which I hope to find here. Thank you for your information!
Looks like I confused it with Silphium, hence the "more of a northern" reference as sweet gales usual habitat is way more northern than the silphium habitat was.
 
Bog myrtle, also called gagel in native Dutch, is a Low Countries plant used to brew gruit in 9-15th century gruit beer (tho by the 13th c most of northern Low Countries had switched to hopped beer to follow the Hamburg style imported beer). It is the key ingredient in Low Country gruit beer, it is mentioned in every historic purchase account and recipe (description) I have been able to locate. Where bog myrtle (Myrica gale) was not able to grow, marsh rosemary (Ledum palustre) was used. Laserwort was imported from the European mountains, and is a relative of caraway (but not the same).

Yarrow and marsh rosemary are considered Nordic herbs if you want to categorize them that way, I guess. Also, the term laserwort transplanted from a now (likely) extinct plant to Laserpitium siler, which is still available (I have the seeds at home, they smell yummy!). Again, a relative, but not exactly the same.

I recently wrote a paper on historic gruit ale, the ingredients and it's history, so I am well versed in its constituents. What I am lacking is practical brewing experience with these herbs which I hope to find here. Thank you for your information!

A general advice would be to boil the herbs in a 1l tea for as long as they would be boiled in the wort and alternate the amount of each herb till the taste is like how you like it. This gets you an idea regarding a reasonable amount for your beer and it's easy to upscale from 1 liter.

But word of caution, some herbs tastes develop with time. My ground Ivy beer was for example almost undrinkable when young but turned into one of my best gruits after some months of aging.

I would also consider leaving the herbs in the wort during fermentation as the alcohol might solve stuff that wouldn't be solved by water only.
 
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I recently wrote a paper on historic gruit ale, the ingredients and it's history, so I am well versed in its constituents. What I am lacking is practical brewing experience with these herbs which I hope to find here. Thank you for your information!

You probably have already found advice on using bog myrtle, but I'd be super-surprised if anyone here has used laurel berries or laserwort! So I'd make tisanes with each of those, boiling for about 10 minutes, and then add to a bland beer until the result is pleasing. This is how we figured out how much mugwort, dandelion root, and yarrow to use in our Gose; we made a base beer with no herbs, then made teas of each ingredient and added 10 ml samples to 500 ml of beer until we found the best combination.

If I had any of those ingredients, I'd go try this myself! I hope you will report back here with results.
 
Has anybody done Sour Gruits? I am looking for some ideas to what additions might mesh well with a tart, bready Berliner. I am also not boiling and planning on bringing the wort up to 180F for 20 minutes before chilling. Any concerns with this for extracting from the additions?

I missed seeing this earlier, so I hope this reply isn't too late to do you any good. A friend and I made a gruited Gose, which is a tart 50% wheat beer with salt and coriander added. We added mugwort, yarrow, and dandelion root, and the result was absolutely delicious. Recipe here.
 
I recently wrote a paper on historic gruit ale, the ingredients and it's history, so I am well versed in its constituents. What I am lacking is practical brewing experience with these herbs which I hope to find here. Thank you for your information!

Do you have a copy of your paper available? Or a reference for it? I'd be curious to read it.
 
Hi Greeneslaede, of course I can share a copy, you can download the file from Academia for free here:
https://www.academia.edu/35704222/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Gruit

I also have a more practical recipe, brewed for a Medieval Reenactment competition:
https://www.academia.edu/36526760/Gruit_Ale_version_1

I had the most fun figuring out how to make wild harvested pine tar appropriate for brewing :)

One thing I found is that there is a distinct shift in historic gruit ale (very specific ingredients, including a form of grain) and modern gruit ale. While historic gruit ales are herbal ales, most herbal ales are not gruit (including all of the modern recipes I have come across, including in this thread). Gruit does not mean herb, and the inclusion of herbs do not make a gruit beer, in history, tho that seems to have become the common modern definition, unfortunately.

Have fun, and let me know what you think!
 
Hi Greeneslaede, of course I can share a copy, you can download the file from Academia for free here:
https://www.academia.edu/35704222/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Gruit

I also have a more practical recipe, brewed for a Medieval Reenactment competition:
https://www.academia.edu/36526760/Gruit_Ale_version_1

I had the most fun figuring out how to make wild harvested pine tar appropriate for brewing :)

One thing I found is that there is a distinct shift in historic gruit ale (very specific ingredients, including a form of grain) and modern gruit ale. While historic gruit ales are herbal ales, most herbal ales are not gruit (including all of the modern recipes I have come across, including in this thread). Gruit does not mean herb, and the inclusion of herbs do not make a gruit beer, in history, tho that seems to have become the common modern definition, unfortunately.

Have fun, and let me know what you think!
So what does make a gruit a gruit then?

Answered my questions myself by reading your papers. Very interesting read, thanks for that!

What I am very curious about is, whether or not unmalted grains, without any malt additions, played once a role in European brewing.

Tibetan Chang is fermented unmalted barley, fermented with a dried yeast cake, containing additional fungi that produce Amylase enzymes and therefore chop the starches for the yeast.

I wonder if a similar process was once common in Europe.
 
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The historic purchase accounts (Latin, Dutch & German, most 13-15th c), a 16th c recipe (in Dutch) and a beer type description (in Latin) are surprisingly consistent and only mention a few different herbs, in combination with some sort of grain:

bog myrtle (also called sweet gale)
wild or marsh rosemary (only where bog myrtle does not grow)
laurel berries
laserwort seeds
pine resin

most use all five ingredients, others a combination - bog myrtle is always used.

There is one account from the late 14th c in Cologne, Germany which lists alternative ingredients, but when looking at the accounts themselves (the cities which had the gruit in hand noted down the income and expenses in detail in their book keeping, down to the ingredients) it is worth noticing it lists both resin and laserwort, but as not available.

it then goes on to mention:
anise
caraway (family of laserwort)
and juniper berries

It is my theory the brew master was trying to make his gruit taste / behave as if he would have access to resin and laserwort, which indicates these three alternate ingredients really are not considered gruit herbs.

Historic gruit also included a grain component, but as the city accounts also list the purchase and sale of malt, it is not quite clear if the malt was part of the gruit, or a side business. Especially as there are other mentions of other types of grain in gruit accounts which are not listed as part of the malt business (for instance spelt chaff and oat chaff). The information I have now shows a connection with grain, but it is not clear what kind of connection - this is something as a brewer I intent to experiment with and see what makes sense, and what does not.

It bears notice that sage and yarrow are never mentioned in connection with gruit. Those are scandinavian brewing herbs and Scandinavia did not have a gruit tradition, they had an herbal beer tradition. It also bears notice that hops is noted in many of the city accounts, which could be another side business, or part of gruit.

So enough information to see that the modern definition of gruit is not based on historic information, but not quite enough to know exactly what the grain aspect of historic gruit was :)
 
The historic purchase accounts (Latin, Dutch & German, most 13-15th c), a 16th c recipe (in Dutch) and a beer type description (in Latin) are surprisingly consistent and only mention a few different herbs, in combination with some sort of grain:

bog myrtle (also called sweet gale)
wild or marsh rosemary (only where bog myrtle does not grow)
laurel berries
laserwort seeds
pine resin

most use all five ingredients, others a combination - bog myrtle is always used.

There is one account from the late 14th c in Cologne, Germany which lists alternative ingredients, but when looking at the accounts themselves (the cities which had the gruit in hand noted down the income and expenses in detail in their book keeping, down to the ingredients) it is worth noticing it lists both resin and laserwort, but as not available.

it then goes on to mention:
anise
caraway (family of laserwort)
and juniper berries

It is my theory the brew master was trying to make his gruit taste / behave as if he would have access to resin and laserwort, which indicates these three alternate ingredients really are not considered gruit herbs.

Historic gruit also included a grain component, but as the city accounts also list the purchase and sale of malt, it is not quite clear if the malt was part of the gruit, or a side business. Especially as there are other mentions of other types of grain in gruit accounts which are not listed as part of the malt business (for instance spelt chaff and oat chaff). The information I have now shows a connection with grain, but it is not clear what kind of connection - this is something as a brewer I intent to experiment with and see what makes sense, and what does not.

It bears notice that sage and yarrow are never mentioned in connection with gruit. Those are scandinavian brewing herbs and Scandinavia did not have a gruit tradition, they had an herbal beer tradition. It also bears notice that hops is noted in many of the city accounts, which could be another side business, or part of gruit.

So enough information to see that the modern definition of gruit is not based on historic information, but not quite enough to know exactly what the grain aspect of historic gruit was :)
So there's room for more investigation. At least you won't run out of topics for more papers, if you wish to investigate further.

I really enjoyed the part about the resin in the recipe...I think I will create some mirror resin myself. Looks fun!
 
Many thanks, @Susan Verberg , for the links to your papers. Very interesting stuff!

As far as I can tell, there is now a 'modern English' sense of gruit which simply means "non-hopped, herb ale". But, as you point out, this is historically inaccurate.

I found an interesting bit on English non-hopped ales here: http://zythophile.co.uk/2014/02/28/was-it-ever-gruit-britain-the-herb-ale-tradition/ (which seems to be an except from Amber, Gold and Black). An interesting bit:

'in 1483 (the year Richard III seized the throne), London’s ale brewers, who were trying to maintain the difference between (unhopped) ale and (hopped) beer, persuaded the authorities to state that for ale to be brewed in “the good and holesome manner of bruying of ale of old tyme used”, no one should “put in any ale or licour [water] whereof ale shal be made or in the wirkyng and bruying of any maner of ale any hoppes, herbes or other like thing but only licour, malt and yeste.” So: London ale in the Middle Ages – no hops, no herbs.'

But there are herbed ales in England all the way back to Anglo-Saxon times , at least in medicinal uses.

Certainly by the Jacobite period, I would think there must have been enough trade between England & the Low Countries for Dutch beer practices to become known in England.
 
Certainly by the Jacobite period, I would think there must have been enough trade between England & the Low Countries for Dutch beer practices to become known in England.

There certainly was trade between England and the Low Countries, but it seems not until the beer was able to travel and be traded. Gruit ale has a short shelf life especially compared to hopped beer - the one reason gruit ale disappeared nearly overnight in the northern part of the Low Countries was the trade of hopped Hamburg beer in the early 13th c which the local Dutch brewers quickly emulated, and then brew for trade themselves (became koyt or kuit beer). This beer was traded from the Netherlands to England in the 14-15th c I think and it took until the 16th c before the English capitulated their local (non-herbed) grout ale. At first it was said the new hopped beer was bad for your health, as obvious from the fat faces and bellies of the Dutch!

While hopped beer had been around for centuries, parallel to gruit ale, it might have taken a bit for the correct procedure to be figured out. It was not until the 13th c that trade suddenly took off (maybe that's when it was figured out?) and german hopped beer created a new commerce: the international trade in beer. Hopped beer was one of the few foodstuffs of the middle ages that would keep (and this also initiated the demise of female / craft brewing...)
 
There certainly was trade between England and the Low Countries, but it seems not until the beer was able to travel and be traded. Gruit ale has a short shelf life especially compared to hopped beer - the one reason gruit ale disappeared nearly overnight in the northern part of the Low Countries was the trade of hopped Hamburg beer in the early 13th c which the local Dutch brewers quickly emulated, and then brew for trade themselves (became koyt or kuit beer). This beer was traded from the Netherlands to England in the 14-15th c I think and it took until the 16th c before the English capitulated their local (non-herbed) grout ale. At first it was said the new hopped beer was bad for your health, as obvious from the fat faces and bellies of the Dutch!

While hopped beer had been around for centuries, parallel to gruit ale, it might have taken a bit for the correct procedure to be figured out. It was not until the 13th c that trade suddenly took off (maybe that's when it was figured out?) and german hopped beer created a new commerce: the international trade in beer. Hopped beer was one of the few foodstuffs of the middle ages that would keep (and this also initiated the demise of female / craft brewing...)

So my home town was taking big part in making the gruit disapear :(

Anyhow, in your paper you are writing that the meaning of gruit changed over time. From let's call it "something that accelerates fermentation" to the modern meaning of beer with herbs in addition or instead of hops.

I am wondering about the composition of this "original" gruit. In the Himalayans, very very old practises have been conserved, in this case the practice of brewing chang out of unmalted barley or millet. I tried it once, it is alcoholic and a bit sour, so there is all kind of bugs and yeasts and molds involved in the process. The special mold (similar to the mold used in the making of sake, which is a far more advanced technique, but the mold is similar) provides the enzymes to chop the starches into simple sugars and the yeast and bacteria do the rest.

I wonder if the initial gruit was similar to this tibetan chang yeast cake they are using. I have friends who travel in this region and some friends from this region of the world and they basically described the yeast cake used as a yellowish dry substance which gets dumped into the soaked grains.

Could the oldschool gruit have been similar? If so, no malting would have been necessary. Which would enable the brewer to use high percentages of oats as oats even when malted, provide very litle diastetic power. I guess using the oldschool methods for malting, the diastetic power would be even lower.

Sounds like a possibility to me.

And regarding the fat faced dutch people, funny that even back in the days the conclusionw as drawn that hops make you fat. I think this is actually true and I am still looking for my perfect gruit to throw the hops out of the window because of it's phyto oestrogens and the effect they have on the body. Unfortunately, I like the taste of hoppy beer :D
 
I think that is a very likely possibility - there are two indications for using grain hulls or chaff as part of the gruit, one in the recipe (oat chaff) and one in a german city account (spelt chaff). The archaeo-botanist who worked on the spelt chaff postulated the theory that since the outside of grains harbor endemic yeast just as grape / fruit grains do, this yeast-rich grain chaff would aid/start fermentation.

It would make complete sense if this chaff would be made into preservable yeast cakes as has been done since prehistory and interestingly, the choice of herbs would even support this theory as they would help support the yeast culture and keep infections at bay... The initial description of gruit was a ferment, that which made the beer ferment, a fermentum, but many later modern historians have discounted this as a misunderstanding of the process of brewing...

Currently I am working my way through as many low country city accounts I can find to see if there are more mentions of grain products aside from malt (tho a concentrated malt extract is also a contender, much like english grout) - and I plan to make this and see how it ferments... I expected resin not to be of much benefit and was pleasantly surprised, we'll see about this theory ;)
 
I am wondering about the composition of this "original" gruit. In the Himalayans, very very old practises have been conserved, in this case the practice of brewing chang out of unmalted barley or millet. I tried it once, it is alcoholic and a bit sour, so there is all kind of bugs and yeasts and molds involved in the process. The special mold (similar to the mold used in the making of sake, which is a far more advanced technique, but the mold is similar) provides the enzymes to chop the starches into simple sugars and the yeast and bacteria do the rest.

Not sure about this part tho, as Dutch brewing houses all seem to have malting facilities like drying ovens, attics and other equipment... I think it is more a yeast delivery system then an enzyme delivery system, but this theory has been postulated in recent Dutch research.
 
Finally, I brewed another hoppless beer.

I used Gagel (sweet gale or bog myrtl), mugwort and ground ivy, simply because I got them and they start getting old so I better use them before it is too late.

I went for a bit different approach, compared to my previous herbal beers. As I had quite some problems with souring of the beers, I have choosen a yeast this time which does not leave much behind for bacterias to chew on. Namely, Belle Saison, the yeast that regularly brigns the FG down to around 1.00.

I made just a small 9l batch. I used 16g sweet gale, 8g ground ivy and 6g mugwort. The grain bill was 700g MO, 200g flaked barley, 200g oats, 300g vienna (a bit of malt flavour for this lower abv beer) and 200g spelt malt (ran out of flaked wheat) plus 2%acid malt. I managed to get 80% Efficiency out of it. BIAB ftw!

I wanted to keep it sessionable with an OG around 1.045 giving an estimated abv of 4-5%.

Let's see how it turns out!
 
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Not sure about this part tho, as Dutch brewing houses all seem to have malting facilities like drying ovens, attics and other equipment... I think it is more a yeast delivery system then an enzyme delivery system, but this theory has been postulated in recent Dutch research.

Interesting! Do you have maybe some sources for this dutch research (hopefully not in dutch :D )? I am really interested in this.
 
Fellow herbal beer fans,

I brewed another one. I tried to minimise the available sugar for souring lab by using a quick and high attenuative yeast (belle saison) and keeping the sugars as short as possible by mashing around 62-65 degrees.

I brewed about 9l and I had 16g bog myrtle, 8g mugwort and 8g ground ivy in the boil for about 45 minutes. The grain bill was MO, flaked barley, spelt and a bit vienna plus about 15% oats and 2% acidulated malt.

When I opened the fermenter today after 2 weeks and a few days, I saw a thin pellicle. I had this particular one before and I saw it on many fotos and it is often related to lab or vinegar producing bacteria. As expected the beer was a bit sour, but not heavily, definitely more in a refreshing way.

FG is about 1.005, OG was 1.043. Good result and not much left for the lactos to chew on so I am expecting this beer not to get extremely sour in the bottle.

It did not help that this beer was fermented above 25 degrees, this usually kick starts labs in the absence of hops. But the Saison yeast did its job and kept them at bay.

The taste is herbal, kind of like bad pot smoke smells like. I have to wait till it is propperly carbed and chilled to give a real statement but up until now it was okish. Let's see how it develops. Here is a pic of the pellicle:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/media/albums/my-pics.9198/
 
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If you have acetobacter, it's going to get very sour. Acetobacter produces vinegar. Acetobacter doesn't eat sugar. It eats alcohol.

They also need o2. Ok not 100% true, but I don't think that those guys are vinegar people :D

I guess it's the good old lactic gang, having a fun time as long as the hops stay out of their way.
 
They also need o2. Ok not 100% true, but I don't think that those guys are vinegar people :D

I guess it's the good old lactic gang, having a fun time as long as the hops stay out of their way.

You're right, ethanol + oxygen = vinegar.

And you're probably right -- I'd assume you've got something other than acetobacter. If you have vinegar, you'll definitely know it by smell and taste!!!!!
 
Um.. "the lactic gang" produce lactic acid but lactic acid isn't vinegar. Lactic acids are acids made from sugars. Think pickles and yogurt - and some sour beers.
Acetobacter produce acetic acid and acetic acid is another name for vinegar. Acetic acid bacteria convert alcohol into vinegar in the presence of O2. If you have vinegar then you have acetobacter and if you have acetobacter you will likely have vinegar. But you don't get vinegar simply by introducing oxygen into alcohol. It takes those bacteria to do the work. Simply adding O2 will oxidize the wine or beer.
 
So, here are my experiences with bog myrtle (Myrica gale, aka sweet gale) in simple SMaSH-ish ales. Every August I visit somewhere that has bog myrtle growing wild - interestingly it seems to be closely associated with abandoned settlements up on the moors, it's almost like they were deliberately growing the stuff. So the last two years I've harvested a carrier bag or two on the last day, frozen it overnight, then transported it in an insulated bag (probably just about defrosting) and then kept it in the freezer for a few weeks until brewing. In 2017 I froze whole branches, in 2018 I had more plant and less room in the freezer, so I stripped the leaves off the branches and put them in a Tupperware box in the freezer. So in what follows I'm referring to whole "fresh" leaves out of the freezer.

My first comment would be that there seem to be big vintage variations. 2017 was a cool, overcast year and the bog myrtle smelt wonderful as I picked it - rubbing the fresh leaves they smelt of APA - all those citrussy/piney notes. It's not surprising once you look at the essential oil - it's dominated by 40-50% limonene or 1,8-cineol (eucalyptol) which convert into each other via terpineol, plus chunks of pinene, linalool, eugenol etc - all pretty familiar from hop chemistry. However, in 2018 I was picking after 2 months of record-breaking heatwave and the fresh leaves were far more subdued, they didn't have much smell to them at all. Maybe I was effectively picking much "older" leaves even though it was the same time of year as 2017, thanks to the ageing effect of the heat, I don't know. People don't seem to talk much about vintage variation for bog myrtle, but it's a real thing (as it is for most crops at high latitudes).

In both cases the base beer was 1.045 100% Fawcetts Maris Otter with about 20 IBU of EKG @60, then 6g/l (10/0/WP/dry) of Aramis (2017 - French lager hop that tastes of Kronenbourg) or Junga (2018 - Polish hop that has a bit of Saaz & Cascade to it but fainter. Still, it would be useful as a dirt-cheap hop in a house golden ale for BMC drinkers or to distract your mates from your special beers.). I deliberately wanted to try some of the obscure Euro hops, and didn't want anything too "characterful" distracting from the bog myrtle.

The original intention with the 2017 batch was to split two ways - with and without BM in the kettle, then take a litre out of each and dry-BM the rest. But I had a disaster with a leak which led to the non-BM wort getting thrown in an unsanitised bucket and it got contaminated. So I ended up just doing the one trial - my notes are a bit hazy, but it looks like about 2.5g/l (1.67oz/5USgal) in the boil and 1g/l dry-BM. Fermented with 1968. The results were really striking - the main body of the beer was quite smooth and honeyed with gentle bitterness and a hint of ?eucalyptus? but as you got down the pint I realised my tongue was going numb. If you've had Tyrozets, tablets which use benzocaine anaesthetic for a sore throat, it had a similar numbing effect as that.

This year I went for an 8-way trial, partly to test Windsor vs Omega Voss, but with and without a BM tea and with and without dry-BMing. First though I made a simple BM tea - boiling BM for 10 minutes in my very soft tapwater at a final volume of 71g/l. It was delicious! OK, you missed the malt a bit but otherwise it was very reminiscent of a 40 IBU APA. So I made a bigger volume of 10-minute tea and mixed in the first for a final mix of 130g/l. This was obviously stronger (65 IBU?) and had a hint of tongue-numbing. I diluted it into a bottle of Becks that was lying around, you could start to taste it at about a 1/10 dilution. So that's what I added to the "boil" arms, and then I dry-BM'd with 10g/l.

Life then got in the way, and they ended up in the fermenter for a month before bottling. Then when I was moving them, I managed to drop them and smashed about a third of the bottles, including all the Voss-BMboil-nodryBM samples. But to cut a long story short - the BM boil samples did fill out the mid palate with some pleasant flavours and moderate bitterness, the dry BM samples didn't add much beyond a slight antiseptic finish when they were young which then faded somewhat.

So 13g/l boil + 13g/l dry of 2018 bog myrtle seems to be adding a little more bitterness but far less tongue-numbing than 2.5g/l + 1g/l of 2017 bog myrtle.

Vintage must play a big part in this - I could feel that 2018 was going to be disappointing as I was harvesting it. But there's obviously lots of process variation in what I did above - 2017 was frozen on the branches whereas 2018 was stripped before second freezing, 2018 was boiled as a separate tea rather than in the wort in 2017, 2018 had longer than it should in the fermenter. And maybe I just misrecorded how much I used last year - but I don't think I was that far out, I didn't pick that much.

It's well worth making a tea, and diluting it into beer to see what it's like. But 70g/l 2018 bog myrtle tea is delicious on its own if you like your tea beery! 10 minute boil is probably too long, but boiling BM gives the nice beery flavours. Dry BMing is probably optional-to-discouraged, unless you like those eucalyptic/antiseptic/menthol kind of flavours, and it looks like it's the dry-BMing that makes your tongue go numb depending on the vintage. I might put leaves through the blender before boiling next year.

So that's that - with the disclaimer that BM is meant to cause miscarriages and was allegedly the hallucigen that made Vikings go berserk, so you should avoid it if pregnant and in general not have a lot of it.
 
My first comment would be that there seem to be big vintage variations.
Vintage must play a big part in this - I could feel that 2018 was going to be disappointing as I was harvesting it. But there's obviously lots of process variation in what I did above - 2017 was frozen on the branches whereas 2018 was stripped before second freezing, 2018 was boiled as a separate tea rather than in the wort in 2017, 2018 had longer than it should in the fermenter. And maybe I just misrecorded how much I used last year - but I don't think I was that far out, I didn't pick that much.

It has been my experience with a variety of botanicals as well that where something grows (terroir) and the climate it grew in (variable for each season) have fast effects on flavor and efficiency.

In the case of bog myrtle specifically, have you considered brewing with the catkins? They are much, much stronger than the leaves (and the leaves much stronger than the bark/twigs) and might work better for you in drier seasons. Historically, it seems the catkins were used, not the leaves.

Also, I've read that opposed to hops, of which the useful ingredients can be extracted through boiling in water, the bits of bog myrtle we want for brewing are not as water soluble as they are alcohol soluble. This is in line with the historic method of brewing with bog myrtle which was added during primary fermentation. Maybe dry-hopping with leaves and/or catkins will better help the flavor infuse into your brew?

p.s. never had any unusual effects after drinking bog myrtle beer... although I do wonder if its reputation for headaches is maybe more to do with using resin that had not been clarified as the turpentines sure will give a person a nice headache!
 
As I say I only go there in August, so catkins aren't an option. I'm not trying to make a consistent beer, I'm really just trying some experiments given that I have easy access to the stuff so vintage variation is part of the interest. I can imagine historically catkins being better for long-distance trade, whereas the minority with it on their doorstep used leaf, in the same way as eg Icelanders would sell cod (the premium fish) whilst eating lesser fish for their own sustenance.

The alcohol solubility thing is pretty tenuous given the strength of the beers - it will be more about trying to preserve volatile compounds. As per above, BM works well because it shares a lot of terpenes etc with hops - these are typically things you aim to extract in the whirlpool, as a balance between losing them and the higher solubility in hot water. I think a lot depends on what you're going for - if you're wanting something beery then you definitely want to add it towards flameout, if you like the weird tongue-numbing antiseptic taste then you add in the fermenter. I imagine the weird stuff happens when you add in the fermenter.

Just on the chaff thing above - surely that's about lautering, in the same way that rice hulls get added today to help liquor flow through the lauter bed?

You also have to think about geographical distribution - this is bog myrtle in the UK (you can look for others here) :

bogmyrtle.jpg


Juniper has a rather similar distribution - imagine how they read across to the Low Countries, which are similar to East Anglia. You can see how BM is concentrated in the wet moorlands of Scotland and Ireland but climate doesn't entirely explain it, the lowland heaths of the south coast are much drier. And then there's swathes of what you might think would be good habitat for juniper and BM in the Pennines and North Yorkshire, but there's none. Obviously habitat is a key determinant of distribution, and there's far less of it in England, but I wonder if the current distribution of BM and juniper is in part determined by Viking brewers and their descendants overexploiting slow-growing woody shrubs and almost wiping them out in the old Danelaw. In this view, one reason hops took over was because their higher productivity made them much more sustainable.
 
Hi guys! Im new to beer making in general. Im love beer and everything about it. My girlfriend however, is allergic to hops. So i have an idea where i would like to "hop" a gruit with juniper berries. Now every post i have seen so far has so many different ranges per gallon. Im going to make a 1 gallon batch and would just like to know how much juniper per gallon to use? Thank you!
 
Hi guys! Im new to beer making in general. Im love beer and everything about it. My girlfriend however, is allergic to hops. So i have an idea where i would like to "hop" a gruit with juniper berries. Now every post i have seen so far has so many different ranges per gallon. Im going to make a 1 gallon batch and would just like to know how much juniper per gallon to use? Thank you!
Hi!
I cannot really give you an answer, but the best way to find out for yourself is to brew a tea with a specific amount of water and then scale it up to your brewing size. Taste the tea and determine the amount of juniper berries necessary till it matches your idea and from there scale it up to your brewing size.

Without hops, you're beer will very likely sour over time. I found out that saison yeasts lower the potential sourness as they don't leave much behind for the bacteria causing the sourness to appear. Lallemand belle saison worked well for me.

My favourite herbal beer was flavored with ground ivy and aged for a few weeks. This is really good. I used fresh ground ivy, don't know how dried one works.

Ground ivy also inhibits bacteria a bit, which protects a bit from sourness as well.
 
Hi guys! Im new to beer making in general. Im love beer and everything about it. My girlfriend however, is allergic to hops. So i have an idea where i would like to "hop" a gruit with juniper berries. Now every post i have seen so far has so many different ranges per gallon. Im going to make a 1 gallon batch and would just like to know how much juniper per gallon to use? Thank you!

I've never used juniper before, so I personally don't know how to use it or how much. What I can give you is my standard advice for spice/herb/vegetable beers (apologies to those who have heard me say this before, but it bears repeating):

1) Do some research and try to figure out approximately how much you think you should use based on the advice and experience of others. And THEN....

2) Divide the quantity you think you should use by a factor of 3 or 4, because EVERYBODY uses WAY TOO MUCH!!!!!!

This isn't opinion; it's FACT, I swear to God it's fact. Humans just for whatever reason have a tendency to use way too much of everything when it comes to these flavoring agents. It's just something we all tend to do, no way to avoid it except to learn from multiple experiences... which I have done and so now I can share this lesson with others.

That's the very best advice I can give anyone making gruit or S/H/V beers.

Anyway, you can always add more if the ingredient doesn't show up well enough. But, after you've added too much, you cannot remove it -- it's too late! So, start with a small amount, and work up if necessary. I think 8 times out of 10, you'll be satisfied with the amount right off the bat using the rule of thumb above.

Cheers.
 
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Hi all, just catching up on this thread. Another reference for herbals and botanicals for gruits is Butch (George) Heilshorn's book "Against All Hops". He gives a good description of many different botanicals and recipes which he developed for his brewery, Earth Eagle Brewing.

I started dipping my toes into gruits last spring with an English golden ale based recipe with Sweet Gale (and a bit of Bramling Cross because I was not that daring) and it was a big hit. Working up some more adventurous recipes for small batches this spring.
 

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