The ever changing opinions of proper techniques in brewing

[Revvy]

do what fits your system and makes your life easier and go with it. After you've had a few of the fine brews you have created, you're not going to give a #$@% anyway.

this!!!!!

 

[RM-MN]

But just because someone writes books, or magazine articles doesn't make him any more right or perfect on knowledgeable about subject than any one who doesn't.....it just maybe means they were more disciplined to actually sit down and write a book, and more persistent to patiently push it through the publication process.

This has been a problem in the education system, especially in higher education where a book written 20 to 50 years ago is used to teach. Some of the ideas in them are very good but some are very flawed but the books continue to be the "bible" of the professor (the professor may have been the one writing them even) and changes are extremely slow to come about.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Good list, but when I started brewing 20 yrs ago, some of those concepts weren't even invented yet. BIAB? Batch sparging? Mash pH? All unknown. LOL.

Back then, starters were uniformly 0.5L (2 cups). 3 or 4L would be unheard of. So "decanting a starter" wasn't even a question since they were so small! Oh, and you're brewing an ale? Add gypsum. LOL.

Our knowledge is still evolving and I look forward to where we'll be in another 10 yrs.

 

[Rev2010]

Just a quick off topic... I saw the thread is rated and out of curiosity I clicked on the Rating thingy to see if it shows who rated it and it says "I've" already rated this thread yet there's only one vote... but I never rated this thread nor would I have rated my own thread cause that's lame. Any idea what's up?


Rev.

 

[Revvy]

Good list, but when I started brewing 20 yrs ago, some of those concepts weren't even invented yet. BIAB? Batch sparging? Mash pH? All unknown. LOL.

Wrong. Actually BIAB has been used in australia for over 20 years. The point was, we didn't know about it in the rest of the brewing world, until John Palmer wrote the article about it in BYO in '08." But it was a recognized form of ag brewing over there.

Same with batch sparging. People were batch sparging even long before fly sparging. Most of the early partigyle brewing was done just by dumping water in and draining it out.

And I do believe, but could be wrong, an understanding of mash ph is a few hundred years old as well. As long as they've understood what PH is, they've applied it to brew....It's just something relatively more recent to the HOBBY, once cheap PH strips and cheap meters became more readily available.

But the point is, all these things have become more common and more shared and understood in the last 20 years. But they existed.

 

[metanoia]

I take issue with the highlighted portion, because what homebrewers do very much has an influence over the craft industry. BMC will always do as it has done but the craft industry is much quicker to pick up and run with new processes much faster (well some are at least) and many of these come from the homebrew world.

That's why I wrote the sentence that followed: "It's important as a tiny piece of the puzzle in the long run, but it won't radically change things in the brewing world from month to month."

You may come on here and post that you did that worked great, yet defied "conventional wisdom." Nobody's going to automatically take your experience as the new standard, but some people might try it and a month or two report back that they had a better experience using that method as well. Still, it will take years of trial and error before any small changes will have a big impact on the home brew community. That's why I said it's important, but the transmission of this data is nowhere near as quick as the news of a new CPU being released or a quarterback getting injured. That was my point- important, but a much slower to change industry.

 

[Saxomophone]

It is awesome the amount of information (and products) available to new brewers on websites like this. Although people complain, jokingly, about "wasting" time mucking about on forums like this, I wasted a lot more time brewing with bad processes that resulted in wasted time and bad beer.

I started brewing in the early 1990s and all I had to learn from was "The Complete Guide to Homebrewing" and a little booth at a local mart that sold homebrewing equipment.

All the extract was from cans, and if I wanted to add hops I bought hopped extract. I didn't have an autosiphon or even a racking cane so transferring from one vessel to another was a major PITA. I only used bleach for sanitizing, which didn't always get rinsed off all the way. I seem to remember bottling right from the carboy when I first started because I had never heard of a bottling bucket. I also didn't have any kind of a faucet attachment for cleaning inside carboys or bottles. I topped off with city water right from the tap.

I'd say only one in three batches of beer didn't have some kind of off flavor. I quit doing it a couple times out of frustration.

New brewers today are lucky to have so many resources on hand. Sure, there are discrepancies and processes get revamped, but the knowledge base available at the touch of a button is insane.

 

[TyTanium]

Great thread.

3 other topics:
Table sugar. Used to be blamed for cidery flavors. Now we know the culprit is bad kits/temp control, etc. Many of us use table sugar liberally w/out issue
Dry hop time. "Dry hopping too long = grassy flavors". The anecdotal evidence seems to be mixed on this one, and I've not seen anything conclusive. I've never experienced it, but others have so I don't want to discount their experience.
Sparge temp. Used to be blamed for efficiency issues. But it really doesn't matter; sparging cold even works.

 

[metanoia]

It is awesome the amount of information (and products) available to new brewers on websites like this. Although people complain, jokingly, about "wasting" time mucking about on forums like this, I wasted a lot more time brewing with bad processes that resulted in wasted time and bad beer.

I started brewing in the early 1990s and all I had to learn from was "The Complete Guide to Homebrewing" and a little booth at a local mart that sold homebrewing equipment.

All the extract was from cans, and if I wanted to add hops I bought hopped extract. I didn't have an autosiphon or even a racking cane so transferring from one vessel to another was a major PITA. I only used bleach for sanitizing, which didn't always get rinsed off all the way. I seem to remember bottling right from the carboy when I first started because I had never heard of a bottling bucket. I also didn't have any kind of a faucet attachment for cleaning inside carboys or bottles. I topped off with city water right from the tap.

I'd say only one in three batches of beer didn't have some kind of off flavor. I quit doing it a couple times out of frustration.

New brewers today are lucky to have so many resources on hand. Sure, there are discrepancies and processes get revamped, but the knowledge base available at the touch of a button is insane.

It's so hard for a new brewer today like myself to imagine what home brewing was like back then. Even commercial brewing must have been so different, seeing as how there were only a small handful of breweries in the 1980s. Still, I'm envious of the learning that you guys had through trial and error, being in on the ground-floor of what is now a huge hobby and profession.

 

[bobbrewedit]

It's so hard for a new brewer today like myself to imagine what home brewing was like back then. Even commercial brewing must have been so different, seeing as how there were only a small handful of breweries in the 1980s. Still, I'm envious of the learning that you guys had through trial and error, being in on the ground-floor of what is now a huge hobby and profession.

I had an uncle who brewed his own when I around 5 years old...would have been late 70's I guess. Sure wish he was still alive to pick his brain!

The only issue I have with most of these posts is the guys with 15 years of brewing experience are not the only ones making comments in most threads...Its easier for a new guy to read a book and trust that book, than to come on a site like this where any Tom Dick or Harry can post some lame comment and pass it off as fact. To me, the books and articles form a foundation, something you can at least partialy trust, even if it's not always fact and is later retracted.

 

[Revvy]

Its easier for a new guy to read a book and trust that book, than to come on a site like this where any Tom Dick or Harry can post some lame comment and pass it off as fact. To me, the books and articles form a foundation, something you can at least partialy trust, even if it's not always fact and is later retracted.

But most of the time if the information is wrong or out of line, there is INSTANT feedback. Bad information doesn't last long on here. As opposed to a book, where you don't KNOW you got bad information. Just because it's in a book, doesn't mean it's correct. Just that it's in a book.

If there is a lame comment on here, you can bet the next comment will be from someone with more experience setting the issue straight.

A book is oneway.....

A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.

John Palmer has changed many ideas since the online version of the book went up several years ago.

Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.

This is an ever evolving hobby, and information and ideas change. And now with places like this with a huuge amount of dedicated and serious brewers, as well as all the podcasts online, you will find the most state of the art brewing info.

Papazain is a good example. as wonderful as it is, was written 30 years ago...and a lot of "science" or "common wisdom" that he as an author tapped into has evolved....all authors face this issue with their work.

Charlie Papazian said it But he might not necessarily say it now....see the difference?

His basic info is timeless....how to brew beer, figure out recipes, etc...but some of the info is just a reflection of the "opinions," or prevailing wisdom of the times, and may not even reflect his current beliefs...There's a podcast with Papazian from a year or so ago, where he talks about just having started using rice hulls in his mash ton...so if he doesn't update the book again, or write a new one, unless you've heard the podcast or read it on here, you won't KNOW about it.

And then WE peer review that info as well.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Wrong. ...
But the point is, all these things have become more common and more shared and understood in the last 20 years. But they existed.

Sure, whatever, they existed. My point was americas didn't BIAB, batch sparge, or measure mash pH in the early 90s because it wasn't in the books and we had no intarweb. If you can point to a BYO or zymurgy article or popular brewing book from the early 90s discussing BIAB, batch sparging, huge starters, and the importance of mash pH then I'll gladly retract my "wrong" comments.

 

[bobbrewedit]

But most of the time if the information is wrong or out of line, there is INSTANT feedback. Bad information doesn't last long on here. As opposed to a book, where you don't KNOW you got bad information. Just because it's in a book, doesn't mean it's correct. Just that it's in a book.

If there is a lame comment on here, you can bet the next comment will be from someone with more experience setting the issue straight.

A book is oneway.....

And then WE peer review that info as well.

Very good point.

You know what I've noticed most about the "old info" as opposed to the "new info" is that most of the changes involve reducing time/effort/equipment...good for us!

I buy into the idea that a lot of the older information was started due to inferior ingredients as well as concepts being taken from other industries, such as wine making (secondaries).

 

[Revvy]

Sure, whatever, they existed. My point was americas didn't BIAB, batch sparge, or measure mash pH in the early 90s because it wasn't in the books and we had no intarweb. If you can point to a BYO or zymurgy article or popular brewing book from the early 90s discussing BIAB, batch sparging, and the importance of mash pH then I'll gladly retract my "wrong" comments.

You said they didn't exist...they DID exist, WE just didn't know about them. THAT was the point of everything I've written. That all that information that was all around us, we didn't know about it. YOU implied that that stuff didn't exist at all.

Here's what you said;

Good list, but when I started brewing 20 yrs ago, some of those concepts weren't even invented yet. BIAB? Batch sparging? Mash pH? All unknown. LOL.

How can you deny that you didn't say that???

That's like saying that apples fell upward until Isaac Newton invented gravity.....

The Australians WERE doing BIAB 30 years or more ago. People WERE batch sparging when they partigyled hundreds of years ago, they just may never have called it that. The German's where writing about mash PH a LONG time ago in their brewing trade journals. They were understanding that in the 1800's in Germany when they were throwing minerals in their water.

Those are historical facts. The point is in the last 20 years, especially in the last few years with the internet we now about things that have existed but we have not heard of them. They were UNKNOWN to US, but they sure as hell were known to those people doing it.

 

[BulldogBrewer]

This is a great thread. I would love to see links to threads & articles in order to backup the new info.

 

[RM-MN]

And I do believe, but could be wrong, an understanding of mash ph is a few hundred years old as well. As long as they've understood what PH is, they've applied it to brew....It's just something relatively more recent to the HOBBY, once cheap PH strips and cheap meters became more readily available.

Thanks to those cheap pH meters I now check my mash on nearly every batch because once I had the meter it became so easy to tell what effect my water had on the mash and how much acid I needed to bring the mash near the preferred range. Palmer wrote that the acidity of the grains would usually bring the mash pH to where it should be but my water supply never heard of him.

If there is a lame comment on here, you can bet the next comment will be from someone with more experience setting the issue straight.

I've had this happen to me as I try to understand what happens and apply what I have read. I make a misstatement and usually within the hour someone has called me to task and explains that what I said isn't true and has proof backing them up.

 

[Revvy]

This is a great thread. I would love to see links to threads & articles in order to backup the new info.

They're on here, hundreds of thousands of times. Pick one of those topics and look for the threads on it. NONE of those things that are "challenged conventional wisdom" are missing a ton of threads about it, and pretty much ALL of them are going to have the same citations or articles you're looking for in there. Usually by me.

 

[BulldogBrewer]

They're on here, hundreds of thousands of times. Pick one of those topics and look for the threads on it. NONE of those things that are "challenged conventional wisdom" are missing a ton of threads about it, and pretty much ALL of them are going to have the same citations or articles you're looking for in there. Usually by me.

Agreed. However, the search on the site can turn up results fairly inconsistently given different search terms.

With links, this could be a great resource for everyone as a sticky or part of the wiki.

 

[Revvy]

Agreed. However, the search on the site can turn up results fairly inconsistently given different search terms.

With links, this could be a great resource for everyone as a sticky or part of the wiki.

Honestly you don't even have to search for threads on these topics. Pick whatever section of the forum and look for the 5-10 threads on that topic every day. Almost all the topics are active threads multiple times on any given day. And they're going to have the same information or links in them.

 

[metanoia]

I've found that Google is a much better companion for a new brewer than any 20+ year old publication, even if it's "updated." Coming from a programming background, I'd usually Google "programming language" +"current problem" to learn 90% of what I know about coding. Same thing applies to home brewing today: "home brew" +"current problem". Google usually returns HBT with dozens upon dozens of threads, all packed with the best wisdom I've seen anywhere.

Thanks to all the advanced brewers on here for the contributions they've made over the years, us newbies really appreciate it.

 

[Rev2010]

Agreed. However, the search on the site can turn up results fairly inconsistently given different search terms.

With links, this could be a great resource for everyone as a sticky or part of the wiki.

I was going to post initially that I would not be posting any links with the explicit reason that I simply don't have time to dig them all up and also because most people here have come across the same opinions/rebuttals many times already.

It extends past needing solid links anyhow - let's take tannin extraction. People on here quote all the time not to sparge by raising the grain temp higher than 170. But then what about Decoctions where they boil grains for up to 30 minutes, maybe more in some circumstances and often several times! I've had higher efficiency as a result of decocting but never any noticeable tannin effects. So what is right, temps over 170 lead to tannin extraction and decocting will lead to tannins or centuries of German brewing that proves otherwise?

This one is interesting in that it's reverse, this tannin thing seems to be a more modern advice as opposed to old brewing methods.


Rev.

 

[Jon73]

I'll agree that Google and HBT are great resources for the new brewer. However, I will contend that they also give TOO much information for the new brewer. I'd like to see a video game level system for new brewers, just to cut down on the confusion.

Level 1: Homebrew kits unlocked *complete 3 successful batches to level up*

Level 2: Internet unlocked, stage 1, 15 minutes. Your brewer can now spend 15 minutes per day searching homebrew topics on the web. *find, and understand, diacetly rest on the internet to go to level 3*


Level 3: Recipe calculators unlocked. Special item found, "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" *Must have 6 successful batches to level up*

Or something like that to keep idiots like me from getting soooo much conflicting information. Baby steps.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'll agree that Google and HBT are great resources for the new brewer. However, I will contend that they also give TOO much information for the new brewer. I'd like to see a video game level system for new brewers, just to cut down on the confusion.

Level 1: Homebrew kits unlocked *complete 3 successful batches to level up*

Level 2: Internet unlocked, stage 1, 15 minutes. Your brewer can now spend 15 minutes per day searching homebrew topics on the web. *find, and understand, diacetly rest on the internet to go to level 3*


Level 3: Recipe calculators unlocked. Special item found, "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" *Must have 6 successful batches to level up*

Or something like that to keep idiots like me from getting soooo much conflicting information. Baby steps.

Maybe that would work for you, but it won't fly with a good number of people. When I was first starting out brewing I wanted as much information as I could find on it. Let ME decide how much I can handle in a time frame, don't dictate it to me (don't go all big brother on me now).

That's my typical mode for learning something new. It's worked very well for getting me where I am in my professional life. It's also worked very well in other aspects of my life.

BTW, I've not had any unsuccessful batches to date.

 

[metanoia]

I like the leveling up system because I'm a video game geek, but I agree with Golddiggie. I certainly consider myself a beginner with only a few batches under my belt, but I'm spending soooo much free time cruising these forums and listening to podcasts. I just can't get enough knowledge, and what's not useful right now I'm jotting down or bookmarking for later.

 

[Nightshade]

Maybe that would work for you, but it won't fly with a good number of people. When I was first starting out brewing I wanted as much information as I could find on it. Let ME decide how much I can handle in a time frame, don't dictate it to me (don't go all big brother on me now).

That's my typical mode for learning something new. It's worked very well for getting me where I am in my professional life. It's also worked very well in other aspects of my life.

BTW, I've not had any unsuccessful batches to date.

When I started I picked up Papazians book as well as Designing Great Beers and Radical Brewing

Papazian gave me a fair idea of what I was getting myself into and the basics. I will pass this along to another beginning homebrewer.

Designing great beers I still refer to for various things and the more I bbrew the more I understand that book in ways I didn't before. It will probably stay in my library for a long time to come.

Radical Brewing is a great look into the history of beer and the processes that changed it to what we know now. It also was a fun read because the writer although covering a great deal of information also didn't take himself too seriously and make the book a dry read. This is another I will keep in my library.

I will probably pick up a good yeast book as well in the next month because yeast is a mystery to me a bit still.

I like the tactile response of books and fundemental knowledge to build off of, but I wouldn't take any single printed word as being gospel even on the internet because all theories can change in a matter of hours.

 

[Jon73]

I'm not trying to go big brother. I guess it is just my way of learning/thinking. Do it a couple times to show that it works, then advance your techniques and process'. I suppose we can add this to the ever changing opinions on which this thread was started.

To stay on topic... 60 minute boil vs what I'm perceiving to be a trend towards 75 or 90 minute boils. Why boil longer? I've never really heard of any other pros besides concentrating the wort.

 

[neosapien]

You forgot:

(Original recommendation) If the beer turns out gross, a nearby woman is responsible and is justiced to death without trial. Her death may cause the beer to recover to a tasty malt beverage within 4 weeks according to the famous Vienna 1658 Christobäumebraumeisteren study.

(Modern day recommendation) various reasons.

Unless that woman is Yooper (isn't she really just "one of the guys"?) I don't see what's wrong with that! Science be damned!


Great thread though. I'm glad I spent the many many hours devouring this forum before I actually started brewing.

 

[Golddiggie]

To stay on topic... 60 minute boil vs what I'm perceiving to be a trend towards 75 or 90 minute boils. Why boil longer? I've never really heard of any other pros besides concentrating the wort.

There are times when you also want kettle caramelization of the wort. A longer boil will give that to you, as well as reducing a larger volume to a higher OG. More often you see it used in all grain brewing where we're not adding extract to boost the OG numbers.

 

[Jon73]

I'd be curious to taste batches side by side and see what the taste difference is between identical batches, boil length being the only difference.

 

[Revvy]

Or something like that to keep idiots like me from getting soooo much conflicting information. Baby steps.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Maybe that would work for you, but it won't fly with a good number of people. When I was first starting out brewing I wanted as much information as I could find on it. Let ME decide how much I can handle in a time frame, don't dictate it to me (don't go all big brother on me now).

I don't know why folks are afraid of CONFLICTING information. I don't necessarily even buy the concept of information conflicting.....Information can't conflict, fact are facts. OPINIONS can conflict....and even that's not a bad thing. That just means there's more information to allow me to best make up my own mind.

Like Goldiggie when I want to learn something, I want as much information as possible, I want as many OPINIONS and insights as possible, I want as much wisdom as possible.....then I take all the stuff, and filter it through the same decision making processors I've relied on over the last 40+ years.

And then I come up with what I think "feels" right to me....and apply it.

Rarely is ANY of the information/common wisdom/and even opinions on here bad enough to ruin your beer/wine/mead/cider, like several of us have said, almost everything on here gets instantly peer reviewed by a bunch of folks....and if it is totally bad (which is rare) it's not left on here unmolested. And if it's really bad, to the point of dangerous, or really will ruin your beer, in extremely rare instances the mods will actually delete it, or at least lock it away. (That's only happened a couple times since I've been here, I couldn't even recall what they were...one of them might have been about fermenting with human blood......)

So even if you've chosen wrongly, more than likely the beer is still going to be great. Because again when you look at it most of the conflicting opinions are really just different yet valid ways of achieving the same end.

99% of this brewing stuff about becoming a great brewer is about developing your own unique individual processes, reading different things, trying different things and figuring out what works in your brewing practice. And sharing that stuff with others, not so they brew your way....but so they have some more tools to try out to add to their own arsenal.

My bottling sticky is really a good example of it. I talk about in the beginning figuring out what makes bottling easy for you...following Papazian, and Palmer, and sitting on my ass with the bucket on a table, the wand on a hose and the bottles in boxes on the floor just didn't work for a 6'7" guy with a bad back. I ended up with a back ache, beer on the floor and quite a few empty bottles I capped because I couldn't tell which bottles I filled or not

So I tried a few things that worked for me..I stole the idea of the dip tube from people who brew with keggles with spigots on it. I tried to figure out how to get the bottle at eye level, where I could bring the bottle to the filler, rather than the filler to the bottle, so I attached the wand to the spigot. And I started bottling from right to left since I'm left handed. And it worked for me, and hey, I cut my bottle time in half. So in my excitement I made a thread.

AND THEN, Grinder took my idea, and put my setup above the dishwasher (which doesn't work for ME) and a whole bunch of folks figured out that worked for them. And a bunch of folks came up with some even better dip tube designs. There's at least 5 different dip tube designs.....that doesn't mean they conflict....they all work equally well. It's just based on whatever's available. Pick one, or come up with your own...and it will be good.

It's the same with secondary/extended primary...THEY BOTH WORK. They have their +'s and -'s but they're not in conflict with each other....they're just different ways of getting clear beer, good beer. AND THEY AGREE ON THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT...not to rush your beer...give it time.

They biggest thing, with that is for folks to realize that doing an extended primary will not ruin your beer.,.Your beer will NOT automatically autolyse one day, one month, or maybe even one year after your recipe or the hydrometer says the yeast is done...even if John Palmer said it would in the first edition of HTB.....which he later retracted. Because we PEER REVIEWED it.

But ultimately again, it's about what works for you....And you won't know that unless you're presented with a ton of ideas to choose from.

I built my keezer knowing nothing about kegging and making one, by reading as much on here as I could. Seeing how many different ways folks were doing it. Looking at the opinions about using fans, and temp controllers and types of lines, and everything else. As I read things that made sense to me got incorporated...And some things I tried didn't quite work.....the very definition of trial and error...or I came upon some new idea mid way through and changed gears because that felt right too. And when it was all said and done, I came up with a pretty decent kegging setup.

There was 20 different directions I could have gone...but what came out was what my internal processors deemed a workable solution...and it was...and when it wasn't I changed something....

That how we do things, that's how we learn....Isn't it?