I've noticed that very few breweries distribute to Oklahoma. That's gotta be frustrating for the Okies.
The craft beer bubble is busting.
- Thread starter swampbrewcrew
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Some states have sh*te laws.
There are (or at least used to be) beers brewed in Utah that were only sold outside Utah.
In many cases it's either the distributors or the restaurant trade groups keeping it that way.
There are (or at least used to be) beers brewed in Utah that were only sold outside Utah.
In many cases it's either the distributors or the restaurant trade groups keeping it that way.
I used the Top 50 list and was surprised at how few (#2, #3, and #4 though I might have missed some) distribute nationwide.
https://www.brewersassociation.org/...018-top-50-brewing-companies-by-sales-volume/
applescrap
Be the ball!
In a word,inspiration. That's what I want, a tall glass of inspiration. I don't even drink on most weeknights anymore so Friday comes around and I want something new, not something I have had before. I am not on untapped, but these "mystery beers" aren't a mystery at all. I use beer advocate and I never guess. Most beers are really good it seems, but some are amazing. It's easy to find which is which. See this is a case of you don't know what you don't know. If you rarely try anything new than how do you know what you are missing? I get you like some beers how do you know you wont like others especially with massive high ratings supporting quality.There are two types of people in the world: those who divide the world into two types, and those who do not.
Nah. But among beer drinkers, I do think there are two basic types: Those who want something different all the time, and those who, once they find a good beer, will tend to keep ordering it. Or maybe a few good beers in rotation.
I'm more the second type. When I find a GREAT beer--whether I or someone else brewed it--I want to drink more of it. I like it.
I can't understand why people who, when they find a great-tasting beer, proceed to try something else for which the odds of meeting or exceeding the quality of that great-tasting beer are very low. Great is on one end of the distribution; try any random beer and you'll almost certainly be disappointed in comparison to that great beer..
I don't know if the motivation to try new things in the face of having found an outstanding beer is simply seeing who can taste more, or rate more on the online sites, or what. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, I'm saying I cannot understand it.
I do like to see what's out there, but that's what flights are for. And in the end, I want a pint of a beer I know I want to drink, not something I'm going to wish I could pour into the nearest potted plant.
I'd love to have someone explain why the constant trying of new things. I'm not trying to denigrate those who do it, not at all; I'm just trying to get a handle on the motivation.
Another reason is that in Denver we get some beers that come through only once or twice and I want to try them. I go to liquor store and see m 43, Lawson sip, pernicious ipa, half acre gone away, founders kbs, and I know others love them so I want to try them. I have to agree people like my buddy who grabs any old local junky beer off the shelf makes no sense to me. The price of these beers demand a closer look before purchase. Look up some of those beers and you will see they are worth the try. A new local brewery with no reputation not so much. In the case of my friend I think he uses all kinds of rationale to justify he is too cheap to try a new 4 pack.
I don't recall saying I never try new beers--typically when I'm out to a new taproom or brewery I'll try a flight to determine what I might like, but there's a funny thing that goes on with this.
All the "famous" beers I've had haven't been all that great. A local bar had a keg of Zombie Dust delivered, made a big deal about the tapping of said keg. I of course, never having had ZD before, thought I'd like to have a pint of this supposed nectar of the gods.
Well. Can't figure out what all the shouting is about. A bitter IPA. Big deal. I've had them before.
There's another aspect of this that I think most people don't consider. That is, if you rank all beers and you find a few that are at the very top, what are the odds in trying a new beer that you'll exceed what that is? Answer: very, very low. Yeah, there might be something better, but that's not the way to bet.
Knowing this, when I'm out to enjoy myself, I want to enjoy myself--with an exceptional beer, not a hope and a prayer which almost certainly will not pan out.
I'm not too cheap...I'm just realistic. I've had KBS, nice beer, but it didn't do that much for me. I certainly wouldn't pay more than standard fare for it. Instead, I'd rather have a beer I know is great, to my palate, than simply wade through a thicket of similar beers.
Now, YMMV. I suspect it does, in fact. I like what I like, and after having tried many, many beers, I've found a few that to me are exceptional. And when I go out, the last thing I want to do is turn down a known exceptional beer for a hope and a prayer.
But if that's not your way, it's not your way. People like what they like. That doesn't make them wrong.
I want to enjoy myself, and drinking an exceptional beer is how I like to do that. Grabbing something other than that because it might be better, when the odds of that happening are between slim and none, isn't my idea of a good time, especially when I have to slog my way through the rest of that pint. Others might have different ways of enjoying themselves, and that's fine too.
*******
Was in Asheville NC last weekend, and made a specific pilgrimmage back to Pisgah Brewing in Black Mountain. I was there in June, had a Rye Stout that was just to die for--and I'm not a Stout guy--and a Schwarzbier that was the best commercial lager I've ever had anywhere, of any type.
So I went back last weekend, lusting after those two perfect fruits. Sadly, neither was on tap, and of the remaining beers, the only exceptional thing I found was a Lambic when combined with a Stout. Very, very good. But no Rye Stout and no Schwarzbier.
applescrap
Be the ball!
For me my moods change, batches change, availability changes. I drink barrel aged sours, kettle sours, neipa, Belgian, German, cider, lagers, fruit beers, chocolate beers, stout, and on and on. I don't like chili beers and gose if its salty I have avoided. I find it difficult to always find something at that level for me. I guess that and a lot of the ones I want to try are expensive.
I think for example crooked stave sours I could probably drink every day. They are 12 for a 12oz bottle and I cant afford that. Also from my experience I prefer a 25 dollar bottle of wine over a 25 dollar beer. I could drink stags leap, dom perignon, and George de latour cab (think that's it) everday and would if I could afford it. I can say those three are in the exceptional category for me. I assume there are probably some 50 dollar bottles that are as good or better than those three. Well come to think of it barolos are in that range and I love those. Anyways there has to be at least some tool to use.
But realistically for what I can afford in beer, coming down from there, I see something well reputed from somewhere and I buy it. I don't think twice about price for the most part within reason (maybe 20 a 4 pack) and am rarely disappointed. Founders breakfast stout disappointed as did a few from them, but I liked backwoods bastard, and dirty bastard or whatever it's called. Could probably drink whichever one everday. No lie after writing this I looked up the ratings and well you can see how I use a rating tool. It wont guarantee I will love it, but it means I am likely not throwing money away or headed towards major dissatisfaction. Because I think that could be easy enough to do especially in the 6 packs. There are so many and some aren't that good. Most 4 packs have been good. Got a few screenshots of some other beers i have liked off of the top of my head.
Availability isn't always there for a lot of these especially depending on where I am at. I don't know how many of these are available right now. But there is for some of them. So that's kinda how I roll. I have no problem with how you do things friend. Hope I gave you insight into why and how I try different things and sometimes the same. I could drink some beers every night, but not others. Like barrel aged, I cant see myself drinking that every night. My buddy trys all kinds of random beers from any ol brewery and limits himself to 9.99 six packs or something. For me I don't drink all week and I decided long ago that saving money didn't help me, it bothered me. If I didn't really enjoy it then what good was it I figured. Guess we both have that in common, cheers to that. In Florida they didn't have quite as many opinions so but I found bcbs stout and pseudo sue. They were both amazing. I never see bcbs here they had like 5 just sitting there. Dang forgot to buy them.
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![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
applescrap
Be the ball!
Oops
So Deschutes has announced their Roanoake VA expansion (production facility) put on hold until further notice, and if the market doesn't improve may scrap it altogether.
They did set up a brewpub in Roanoake they will keep operating.
Just context for those viewing solely through homebrewer/drinker glasses.
They did set up a brewpub in Roanoake they will keep operating.
Just context for those viewing solely through homebrewer/drinker glasses.
histo320
Well-Known Member
Thought this would add to the discussion.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...-beer-grows-share-114-b-us-market/3341312002/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...-beer-grows-share-114-b-us-market/3341312002/
According to the article, the number of breweries has just about doubled in 5 years. If that rate of growth continues there would be 15K breweries in 5 more years. It occurs to me that that kind of growth probably isn't sustainable.
That doesn't mean craft beer's share of the market won't continue to grow. Some of the more well-established breweries will expand as long as the demand is there. That probably will vary by region, and state and local laws can have an effect on that.
That is...stunning. I still remember Koch saying he'd be happy if craft ever owned 10% of the beer market...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
It's been awhile, but I remember this conversation back in the day came down to the Craft Brewer's Association or some such decided that Sam Adams and Yuengling were "craft" and that made the whole thing look way huger...
But overall, beer drinking was down, so craft's % of all beer was up, but it was flat as far as overall drinking.
But overall, beer drinking was down, so craft's % of all beer was up, but it was flat as far as overall drinking.
Overall beer consumption is still going down as folks migrate to alternatives (wine, mixed drinks, whatever) so that much hasn't changed. I supposed that made the craft share a tad easier to achieve if that means much...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Regarding your experience with Zombie Dust, you have to put it into context. ZD, when it first came out, was amazing. Years later, citra based IPAs loaded with hop flavor are a dime a dozen. A similar beer is Heady Topper...one of the first (if not the first) NEIPAs. When it came out, it was revolutionary and a beer experience like no other. It was also hard to get and the two combined to make it one of the most sought after beers at the time. Try it now and, with all the other amazing NEIPAs out there, and it's OBE (Overcome By Events). It's just another in a sea of tasty beers, but no big deal. Bourbon County Stout is another example. It's still a very well done BA Imperial Stout, but there are tons of them out there now. At one point in time, it was revolutionary and an incredible new experience.
The thing to remember is that both those beers were exceptional when they came out. It's possible that everything that can be done with beer has been done, but I doubt it. There will be new exceptional and revolutionary beers coming in the future. How fun would it be to be to have one of those before they become the rage? To go someplace, try their flagship beer and realize you just had a sip of something truly amazing.
I drink mostly my homebrew, and I don't drink something new just because it's new, but I do look for opportunities to try something unique and different.
Sure it would be....provided I don't have to drink 100 so-so beers just in the off hope that I might stumble upon something exceptional.
Some of this may simply be my science background. I know that regression to the mean is a thing, and when I find a truly exceptional beer--which has only happened about 4 times ever--I am virtually certain the next beer, whatever it is, will be worse.
What's more, if I try a pint of something and it's underwhelming, I have to slog my way through it. Don't know how others react, but when I'm out to enjoy myself, I want to enjoy myself--not slog through a mediocre beer.
Many taprooms do flights, and some will offer a splash to taste something, and I avail myself of that. But I don't have any illusions--the odds of any of that being exceptional are very, very low. "Exceptional" means, to my way of thinking about it, a beer that is in the top 1 percent.
So if you have an exceptional beer and then try something different, what are the odds it'll be as good? 1:99. In other words, bet a lot it won't.
Most of the time I'm in a taproom or bar I'm wishing I had a pint of my own homebrew instead of what is on tap. I try different things here and there, hoping against hope for something exceptional, but it's not. And then I have to decide what I want in a pint.
I suspect some who are into the "try new things" approach might liken it to fishing, i.e., you cast a lot of lines looking for a bite from a monster fish.
And so be it. Takes all kinds to make a world.
That's pretty much how I feel. I'd just as soon drink my own beer than most of what I try in a brewpub or taproom. To be honest, that probably says more about the quality of the beer produced in a rapidly expanding craft beer universe than it does about my homebrew.
When I buy a craft beer I probably buy something I haven't tried about 66% of the time. Of those 66% maybe 10% are something I really like. And I would prefer my homebrew to those about 80% of the time. But without trying new beers you will never find that gem. Those I buy again. I have found some really good beers by breweries that have a very limited distribution, not even the full state of FL.
I don't see the craft brew bubble bursting. I see it changing. With greater competition it is less viable to go big quickly. So there are far more micro breweries these days. Most of them have little or no distribution range. Are they mostly mediocre? Probably, but I would also say that about the big breweries other beers. Fat Tire for example was one that I heard raved about, and when I got one I thought, "What's the big deal? It is nothing special....."
So I will keep experimenting, sucking down mediocre beers on the off chance I will find my gem. Then that beer will go into the ones that I buy 33% of the time, and continue with new ones 66% of the time.
I don't see the craft brew bubble bursting. I see it changing. With greater competition it is less viable to go big quickly. So there are far more micro breweries these days. Most of them have little or no distribution range. Are they mostly mediocre? Probably, but I would also say that about the big breweries other beers. Fat Tire for example was one that I heard raved about, and when I got one I thought, "What's the big deal? It is nothing special....."
So I will keep experimenting, sucking down mediocre beers on the off chance I will find my gem. Then that beer will go into the ones that I buy 33% of the time, and continue with new ones 66% of the time.
Gameface
Well-Known Member
I like about 95% of the beer I try.
My opinion is that there is really no such thing as great beer. There are great moments when you drink the right beer in the right moment and have a great experience. But beer is beer most of the time. Making good beer is something that any competent brewer can accomplish.
I feel like, reading this thread, where I like 95% of the beer I drink most of you would say I must just be drinking meh beer 95% of the time and liking it. Not going to argue, but I think there really isn't too much straight up bad beer out there. If a person gets to the point of opening a brewery they probably know how to make good beer.
My opinion is that there is really no such thing as great beer. There are great moments when you drink the right beer in the right moment and have a great experience. But beer is beer most of the time. Making good beer is something that any competent brewer can accomplish.
I feel like, reading this thread, where I like 95% of the beer I drink most of you would say I must just be drinking meh beer 95% of the time and liking it. Not going to argue, but I think there really isn't too much straight up bad beer out there. If a person gets to the point of opening a brewery they probably know how to make good beer.
Regarding the context and setting being important (the "great moments"), I generally agree with you. The right context can make poor beer better or good beer great. Or good beer bad.
Regarding the rest though...
You're either living in an unusually strong beer area, not exposed to enough, are really easy to please, or have low standards.
No offense. You're entitled to your opinion and to like whatever you like. But your opinion in this is very much a minority.
Because one thing that's almost universally agreed upon (regardless of one's position on the "bubble") is that there's a lot of substandard craft beer out there.
To the point that the Brewers Association had a committee/campaign/something I don't recall set up specifically to help combat the rampant quality problem by providing resources to BA members to up their quality game.
Yep. I'm amazed at how often I go to a small micro-brewery with my wife or friends, order flights, and everyone is telling me (and I agree) that I brew better beer.
There are some magnificent craft breweries out there, and quite a few brewing very good beer, but there are also a bunch that seem to have jumped into the market with little idea how to brew great beer.
I talked to a head brewer from a small brewery at a beer fest in February and asked him about what he does for water profiles. He looked at me like I was an alien and said they just used carbon filtered tap water. No effort to manage the minerals or pH! I've had their beers and that explains a lot.
LostHopper
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Extremely frustrating but some recent changes to old outdated laws have resulted in a dramatic improvement in distribution to OK and the death of 3.2 abw beer. Still waiting on Bells to cross the border but there is hope.
The craft beer bubble is busting because not every "craft" brewer makes good beer as Hwk-I-St8 mentioned.
I am not of the opinion that water/pH is necessarily the problem. If the water is good, IMO, managing the minerals and pH are not necessarily the cause of mediocre beers. I home brewed in a community where our water was considered the best in the area for drinking. I brewed there for about 7 years, in the 7th I got a water report from Ward Labs, treated 2 brews and the results were indistinguishable from the previous. I would also rate my beers equally with most craft breweries. My friends have said my beers are very good, and have always asked for more. I have moved and do notice a more variation in my beers here. Some are very good and some are just good. I have yet to take a pH reading in any of my brewing.
I firmly believe that all the hype of water treatment and pH control is overblown. Could it make my already very good beers better? I will concede that it probably would, but hasn't been important enough to spend time or money on. YMMV.
I have a couple comments about this. First, a given community may have water that's great for IPAs, but I wouldn't want to use it as-is for a RIS (or vice versa). Water makeup and pH do make a difference and I can tell the difference in two IPAs brewed with radically different water profiles. Second, it wasn't so much that he used filtered tap water, it was that he was unaware that it was something that should be considered. For a pro brewing at a micro-brewery, that was shocking. I work hard to brew the best beer I can and I've got serious beer snobs who want to pitch in and open a brewery with me. I can't imagine leaving that stone unturned as a pro trying to make money in an ever-more competative market.
There are plenty of home brewers that choose not to actively manage their water profiles, but most are at least aware of the concepts.
There are pros around here who do the same. It's easy to tell who manages water and who doesn't, especially when you get to the palest or darkest end of the spectrum.
I posted my water report here many years ago and was told that it is about as good as they get. Sometimes I acidify for lighter beers and i'd have to jump through all the hoops for something left-field like a NEIPA, but I can make all the classics with no problem.
I've only talked to a couple of local breweries but they both just use filtered tap water and make fine beer.
I've only talked to a couple of local breweries but they both just use filtered tap water and make fine beer.
Our water does relatively well in the amber/brown ale realm but calcium is on the low end. Paler usually needs treatment/acid, and darker can need a touch of alkalinity sometimes (especially if adding enough calcium to the water).
You're not gonna brew a great Pilsner and a great Imperial Stout with the same untreated water. Full stop.
You're not gonna brew a great Pilsner and a great Imperial Stout with the same untreated water. Full stop.
Well two of my very best beer, brewed with the same water, without treatment were an IPA and A RIS.... Can there be a difference or improvement? Probably. Is it worth it for me to spend the time and money to do at this time? NO. Are my beers bad because I don't amend my water or adjust for pH? Again NO!
You said he looked at you like an alien. That doesn't mean that he wasn't aware of the concept...
Is it possible that it is only that you don't like the beers that brewer produces and that might not be consensus?
Their beer is popular with the very casual craft beer drinker....probably because they serve very good food. The people I know who are relatively into craft beer find their offerings to be very mediocre. Absolutely in no way a destination brewery.
When I say he looked at me like I was an alien...I was trying to say that he acted like that was a concept of which he was not aware.
Regardless...I'm happy that you like your beers. Personally, I would not dream of opening a brewery without having a plan for managing water profiles. Honestly, I think it's that kind of attention to detail that differentiates the "pretty good" beer from the "whoa, this is amazing" beer. JMHO. I want to brew beer that hangs with the best in the world and shocks people with the quality, flavor and aroma when they drink it.
I've seen this kind of thing a lot on HBT, and frankly it surprises me. Some people will say they don't pay attention to water and their beers are fine, but don't realize they got lucky.
That's why I bolded and emphasized the "IF" above. You have to make assumptions for the "water doesn't matter much" argument to hold.
It was once said by one of the leading lights in the brewing community that if your water tastes good, you can brew good beer. Well, maybe. And maybe that's only for certain styles.
My son used to use his tap water; i suggested he try RO water instead, and his beer took a huge leap forward. A friend I was talking to literally last night took my suggestion about changing his water--which comes from a well--and got some water from Dubuque (which has generally good water for brewing). His beer? Much better.
When people say water doesn't matter, or doesn't matter much, it's a sign to me that they may not be as experienced with it as they might like. I've seen first-hand the effect of not paying attention to water. It matters where I live, where my son lives, and where my friend lives.
You might be lucky with your water, but it's only that. Luck. To anyone who says water isn't important, I say to them: Try brewing with my tap water and then see what happens.
I don't know the ins and outs of commercial brewing, but wonder how many take the time to measure and adjust? It may be most of them, but my guess is that most might do that in their test batches then make any adjustments as ingredients in the recipe. Maybe double check a couple times a year.
I find that MOST commercial craft beer is mediocre. There are a few popular breweries where I have tried a lot of their beers and was totally unimpressed. Then I tried another of their beers and said WOW! And there are a few where I have yet to find one that is any better than my average homebrew.
Again, I don't know what is involved in water adjustments on a commercial scale, but it may come down to profit and loss. If it costs more to analyse and adjust, than it is worth, then adjusting is not a good idea.
Again, you may just be misinterpreting the "alien look"
I find that MOST commercial craft beer is mediocre. There are a few popular breweries where I have tried a lot of their beers and was totally unimpressed. Then I tried another of their beers and said WOW! And there are a few where I have yet to find one that is any better than my average homebrew.
Again, I don't know what is involved in water adjustments on a commercial scale, but it may come down to profit and loss. If it costs more to analyse and adjust, than it is worth, then adjusting is not a good idea.
Again, you may just be misinterpreting the "alien look"
