The big 3

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dblvsn

dblvsn

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How true.
n12409563_45773029_1398.jpg
 
Well, I've been very pleased with the American cars I've owned. And FWIW, ask yourself if the governments of some of the import manufacturers are giving them some aid (They are all down in sales, big time.)

This is not so much a problem with people not buying what are perceived to be crappy cars, but that the entire car market is way down. Who can be in good shape with a sudden 25% and more in sales? What is working against the Big three is that they had just spent billions in downsizing, and the UAW concessions had not kicked in yet (Billions in savings starting in 2010). Add the fact that the credit markets are tough, and they need money to continue operating until people get back to buying cars again.

Meantime, they are making many moves to save money, which will undoubtedly result in even more people not affording to buy cars.

Biggest problem is that people right now are scared to spend money. That causes fewer sales, more unemployment, and more people scared to spend money. Kind of abad cycle to get into.
 
The CEO of GM admitted that they have decieved the American consumer, and have built automobiles that are of subpar quality. That is something that the market knows, as a whole.

Imports have a reputation for being better cars, for a reason... they have earned it.

I think GM and the UAW are way to cockey, and feel much too entitled in this situation. A little humility would help thier cause, wonder if they know what humility is.
 
I read an article the other day asking,"Just how American are American cars?" I was quite surprised by what the author had to report. He said that the average American car, while most are assembled here in the US, have less the 50% of its parts made in the USA. The Toyota Camry, all that are sold in the US are assembled in the US, are made in America and from 80% parts made in the USA. In addition to the Camry, 56% of Toyota's other cars sold here are made in the USA with the same percentage of domestic parts.

It makes me want to go buy a freakin Toyota...

And I am sorry, no more bailouts for any corporation until I get bailed out. I have been out of work for a year and can't find a job to save my life.
 
+1

Sorry to hear about the lack or work... this is my point, these greedy little grubs want YOU, to pay for thier company to stay afloat... so they can continue to get compensated at a rate of $70+ an hour. They are willing to make concessions, in what 2010? 2011? Humility... GM and the UAW cannot even spell the word.
 
And the automotive bailout fails in Congress....

As I understand it, the UAW was offered a deal to take a pay cut at the end of 2009. They refused it saying that they wanted it at the end of their contract in 2011, I think? I was told that they wanted to wait to broker a deal until BO got in office thinking that the Dems would offer a better deal to work out this bailout. Now, I'm not anti-union, I work in one, but I do think that the UAW has gotten WAYYY to powerful and snotty. They have done a lot to help the automotive industry but a lot to hurt it too. This may be something that kills the american auto industry, and I secretly hope that the Big 3 kick their arrogant butts out and go non-union like Toyota. I really feel bad for the families involved, but like the saying goes, "No single snowflake feels it is to blame for the avalanche."
 
I dont think that there is any illusion that the new administration will be of much more "help" to the UAW than the current one. Which stinks.

I am personally sickened that Bush is even considering doing anything for them in his last few weeks. I wish that Iraqi shoe had hit him squarely in the head.

Making bad decisions all the way up til the day he walks out of office.
 
Homercidal said:
Well, I've been very pleased with the American cars I've owned. And FWIW, ask yourself if the governments of some of the import manufacturers are giving them some aid (They are all down in sales, big time.)

This is not so much a problem with people not buying what are perceived to be crappy cars, but that the entire car market is way down. Who can be in good shape with a sudden 25% and more in sales? What is working against the Big three is that they had just spent billions in downsizing, and the UAW concessions had not kicked in yet (Billions in savings starting in 2010). Add the fact that the credit markets are tough, and they need money to continue operating until people get back to buying cars again.

Meantime, they are making many moves to save money, which will undoubtedly result in even more people not affording to buy cars.

Biggest problem is that people right now are scared to spend money. That causes fewer sales, more unemployment, and more people scared to spend money. Kind of abad cycle to get into.
Click to expand...


Homer said it better than I could. Instead of blindly hammering the big 3, I wish some people would take a little time and look into what they have been doing in the last few years to correct their main labor issue's. Do an actual side-by-side of some of Toyota's vehicles and some of the comparably equipped domestics. Think about the fact that the transplants haven't been operating here long enough to have any substantial legacy costs.

The 80's are over, GM and Ford no longer try to cut cost by cutting quality. All of the big 3 make attractive small cars that get excellent fuel mileage. They also make the larger vehicles that many Americans wanted to drive, until gas prices were inflated by speculators.

Most of all, remember that they are asking for a loan. A loan that if the credit markets weren't completely screwed right now, they would most likely have been able to get through private channels. Unlike the bank bailout, were banks were handed money on a silver platter.
 
sterling214 said:
Homer said it better than I could. Instead of blindly hammering the big 3, I wish some people would take a little time and look into what they have been doing in the last few years to correct their main labor issue's. Do an actual side-by-side of some of Toyota's vehicles and some of the comparably equipped domestics. Think about the fact that the transplants haven't been operating here long enough to have any substantial legacy costs.

The 80's are over, GM and Ford no longer try to cut cost by cutting quality. All of the big 3 make attractive small cars that get excellent fuel mileage. They also make the larger vehicles that many Americans wanted to drive, until gas prices were inflated by speculators.

Most of all, remember that they are asking for a loan. A loan that if the credit markets weren't completely screwed right now, they would most likely have been able to get through private channels. Unlike the bank bailout, were banks were handed money on a silver platter.
Click to expand...
So how long do they have to repay that loan. I got two years. What is their interest rate. Honestly thye will probably get every cent they want but its not going to solve the problem. Were throwing good money into bad companies. This will only slow the bleeding.
 
A loan isnt a loan if they arent around to repay it. And, with the fact that BOTH sides seem pretty unwilling to change anything RIGHT NOW... this is a bandage on a gunshot wound.

GO bunkrupt, mandate concessions from both sides, emerge, live happily ever after.

I wonder if GM and the UAW see how BAD this whole thing is for thier public image. Ford knows, they will have much more public support since they have decided to forego loans and all this whining.

I used to swear by American cars... that changed, but I still saw the Big 3 as an important American institution... now with this sad display on capitol hill by thier CEOs and the UAW acting like spoiled brats, I am ashamed to call them American.
 
See how many of the foreign car companies are getting help from their governments. Why should the others be allowed to get help during this downturn, while the US carmakers suffer into bankruptcy? I can't understand why people are so hateful towards this very small amount of help (compared to the massive cash infusion the credit companies (who obviously made very terrible decisions, possibly even illegal decisions)) that would do more for everyday people.
 
I dont care what other socialist nations do...

I just dont want to do it here....

I think many are just fed up with seeing how poorly the Big 3 have handled themselves, and now they are coming to us for help, and promising that now they will behave and follow good business practices. BUT, no one is willing to commit to any real changes at this time... give us some money, and we will get back to you on a comprehensive plan... um, maybe in March.

I also think that everyone agrees that the $700B bailout was an idiotic idea as well, no one is defending that decision either.
 
The Pol said:
I dont care what other socialist nations do...

I just dont want to do it here....

I think many are just fed up with seeing how poorly the Big 3 have handled themselves, and now they are coming to us for help, and promising that now they will behave and follow good business practices. BUT, no one is willing to commit to any real changes at this time... give us some money, and we will get back to you on a comprehensive plan... um, maybe in March.

I also think that everyone agrees that the $700B bailout was an idiotic idea as well, no one is defending that decision either.
Click to expand...

Name another industry that is as heavily regulated (by idiots in government that have no idea how to make a profit, much less a product that anyone wants) that isn't heavily subsidized to make up for the governments interference. The big 3 aren't asking for subsidies, their asking for a loan. Last time one of them asked government for a loan, it got paid back ahead of time.
Restructuring a company takes time and money, GM and Ford have been in the process of getting leaner and more financially viable for 4 years now. They would still be on track of that if the credit crunch wasn't affecting peoples ability and desire to purchase cars. This isn't a case of the industry being obsolete(GM is in the lead of the only truly viable alternative energy vehicle) it is a case people being unable to get financing.
 
Toyota is also hurting, and I just read that they plant that they switched over to build the Prius in the US, is now on hold. Apparently the Prius sales are down by nearly 50% in November.
 
I'm with the Pol. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken S#!t. I don't care what you call it...a loan...a bailout... what it is is dumping billions of OUR dollars into poorly run and terribly managed companies who have lost the faith and confidence of the American consumer.

These companies NEED to go bankrupt. Do you really think the US auto industry is going to simply go away? They need to start over from scratch. Sure, we may lose a few brands in the process, but the industry will be better off as a whole by declaring bankruptcy and REORGANIZING. Not by taking money they won't be able to pay back just to delay the inevitable.
 
I still have to applaud Ford, for going it on thier own. Apparently they are doing something that Chrysler and GM arent?

GM at one time had an electric car, what happened to that idea, and why?

The problems at the big three existed WAY before this financial crisis. I have no doubt this situation has accelerated the inevitable. The auto makers have been dragging down Michigan for a long time, I lived there for 27 years, and you could not watch the news without some mention of thier woes.

I dont have any respect for a company that waits until they are asking us for money to save thier sorry butts, to tell the American public what we already knew.
 
This is a part of what sickens me....

"As the Detroit 3 automaker executives hold out their tin cups to Congress looking for a taxpayer bailout, with news reports suggesting $15 billion short-term aid package, General Motors has taken out an ad in the trade publication Automotive News apologizing for various mistakes it says it has committed in the past.

In it, they concede to letting quality fall below industry standards, building lackluster designs, supporting too many brands, and losing focus on their core market".

All of which they would have denied, but now that they need to drum up some sympathy to pay for thier mistakes... well, we will admit to what the public already knew. Sounds like a 5 year old after a scolding.

I also agree, the US Auto market will not cease to exist, though it may have one or two fewer players... but I bet those players would be VERY motivated to do what it took to run a successful business. Detroit will be decimated, true... but the govt. cannot be like Robin Hood and just swoop in to save everyone before something bad happens to them. Bad things happen, hard times come, our generation has been spoiled by amazing prosperity. Go talk to your grandparents and ask them about what hard times are like, and how they persevered.
 
I love my Chevy Tahoe Z71, but it's not without flaws. I'm so glad I bought an extended warranty.

The 4x4 system had to be replaced.
The Parking brake had a design flaw. It was tied to the braking system so it was used every time I used the brakes. I never used the parking break when parking on level ground which is about 90%. Anyway, they knew this but did not issue a recall, so after 4 years, the parking brake fails inspection. Time to fix it for $300.

The paint on my radio buttons has worn off, so you don't know what you are pushing unless you read braille.

The dashboard is peeling

Performance wise, it is great. It pulls the Boy Scout Trailer and my horse trailer just fine.

Will I buy another GM car once Reid & Pelosi get involved? Nope. I'm not buying any car where the government is involved.

I say let them go bankrupt, drive a stake through the UAW, and reorganize like the free market dictates. Throwing more money will result in the same fiasco as the bank bailout. Nothing gained.
 
Let them burn and may they go down screaming. Last I checked, in a capitalist economy, which is what we have, if a company fails to make a profit, which is what they did, and then fails to make changes so they can make a profit, which they haven’t, they die off and someone takes their place. Obviously the big three aren’t going to completely go away, they’ll declare bankruptcy, restructure and be back to creating subpar vehicles in no time but at least the act of filing will shake them up a bit.

Furthermore, if the government really wants to stimulate things than why don’t they take the billions that the car manufacturers are asking for and divide it amongst the gainfully employed members of this country. Let us decide where the money should be spent. If people really do want to save the big three than they can go spend their part of the money buying a new car from them. There was a guy here in town trying to get a petition together to send to Congress with this exact suggestion.
 
This isnt about saving an American institution, it is about interfering with a free market and propping up the UAW.
Everyone goes bankrupt, gets concessions on both sides in BK court, emerges and moves on. Times change, people need to be willing to change with them.... not drive to Washington in hybrid cars (which was rediculous) and panhandle when they are getting paid better than 90% of those in the public sector, come on. Bring yourselves down to OUR level, see how WE live.
 
Here Here to the last 4 posts...

Look we already know that the economy is going to suffer for the next 2+ years. So let's take it on the chin now and get on with the recovery rather than drag it out even longer.

As my Pop used to say, "You can either take your whuppin now and get it over with or be grounded for 2 weeks. The whuppin will only hurt for a minute."

I always took my whuppin and these irresponsible companies that squeezed every dollar they could out of us should take theirs.
 
Biermuncher,

I went to school a year ago with a lady who worked for Chrysler here in Toledo and she told me the following: At the time that I was in evening classes with her Chrysler was trying to cut production. So, for 6 weeks she was paid her normal wage to come in and sit in a conference room for 8 hours a day. I was ASTOUNDED to say the least that a company could have a policy such as this. I realize it's the UAW's doing and not Chrysler directly but come on, make them do SOMETHING.

This is one of the many reasons I feel ZERO sympathy for the big three and can't wait to see their bankruptcy filings.
 
BierMuncher said:
Is it true that laid off UAW workers get 95% of their normal pay?

If so, it sounds more like structured paid vacation.
Click to expand...


It is called a "job bank".

I call it rediculous. They have never had to live like normal working folks have to, and it seems that they are unwilling to start now. Maybe they will get the pleasure of living like unemployed folks do.
 
EdWort said:
The Parking brake had a design flaw. It was tied to the braking system so it was used every time I used the brakes.
Click to expand...

Isn't that normal? If the rear brakes are drum brakes, then they are also the emergency/parking brake. Both front and rear brakes are used in stopping, but the harder you stop, the more the front brakes are favored in the system. (That's why rear brakes last so much longer.)

The Tahoe must have had the rear brake shoes in constant contact with the drum or a fault in the cabling from the lever or something.
 
You know, I'm getting inundated with junk mail from local dealers about how my cars are getting older and it;s time to buy a new Chevy or Dodge or whatever.

Thanks, but both my subarus are paid off, and the oldest one only has 115,000 miles. It's just getting broken in.
 
menschmaschine said:
The Tahoe must have had the rear brake shoes in constant contact with the drum or a fault in the cabling from the lever or something.
Click to expand...

Yep. They had a 50 cent fix for it, and installed it AFTER in replaced the parking brake. They could have fixed it years ago, thus saving me the hassle and expense. My 10 year old Saturn still has the same parking brake, and the Tahoe is only 5 years old.

My point is that GM does not step up and fix flaws like this. Another example is the daytime running light. How many Chevy or GMC trucks or SUVs do you see on the road with one of the daylight running lights out? I see dozens every day here in Texas. Again, my 10 year old Saturn has DRL and none has ever burned out yet, but the Chevy Tahoe's are burning out within one year. Mind did while it was still in warranty and the dealer tried to tell me it was not covered. I told him that has to be BS bases on what I see on the road every day. He agreed and fixed for me anyway. The stuff GM gets away with and they wonder why they can't make any money.
 
2000 Impala with around 85K and the transmission is on its way out. I babied the **** out of this car! I would have hesitated to buy a GM for this reason but I wont purchase one now because of this. Frustrates me to no end.
 
Your Saturn is made by GM, and the brand will probably be becoming a specialty vehicle brand because of restructuring.
The EV1 (GM's first electric vehicle) was never sold, only leased. GM did this because replacement cost of the battery in the vehicle would have been almost as much as the cost of a new car. They shelved it until battery technology caught up with their vehicle design. They have also pumped a ton of money into battery technology. Money that they will not get a return on for at least 20 years because not enough people want to spend the huge premium to drive a viable battery powered vehicle.
I would love to see the UAW contract get thrown out so that the big 3 could eliminate some of it's waist, but in all honesty that isn't going to make a huge dent in the cost of a car. Eliminating all of the governments safety, emissions and fuel regulations would thou.
It sucks when a tranny goes at 85k, but sometimes things break. No car line, foreign or domestic is going to have a zero failure rate.
I'm not dogging the transplants, I do just about as much work for them as I do for the domestics. I am just sick of hearing people bash the big 3 as dinosaurs based on the last time they sat in one of their vehicles back in the early 80's when bean counters were running the show. There are good "Car People" in charge at GM and Ford right now. Chrysler was very healthy before Daimler bought them out, and may be once again if Cerberus can hang onto it Long enough to fix all the damage that Daimler did.
 
Hmmmm, I currently own 2 GM vehicles.

2000-Malibu, 174,000 miles just put an alternator in it. Only problem so far.
2005-GMC Sierra 190,000 miles only ever put oil and tires into it.

My last truck was a 99 S-10 that went 275,000 before I sold it to the neighbor.
2 heater cores and a clutch.

I likey my GM trash.
 
sterling214 said:
The EV1 (GM's first electric vehicle) was never sold, only leased. GM did this because replacement cost of the battery in the vehicle would have been almost as much as the cost of a new car. They shelved it until battery technology caught up with their vehicle design.
Click to expand...

Suuuuuuurrrrreeeeeee! 'cos they're nice guys and didn't really want to sell Hummers instead.
 
sterling214 said:
I am just sick of hearing people bash the big 3 as dinosaurs based on the last time they sat in one of their vehicles back in the early 80's when bean counters were running the show.
Click to expand...


Sorry Sterling, but I take a little offense by this. I own a 2003 Cadillac CTS with 55,000 miles. I have spent $2000 in transmission repairs, $400 for a new thermostat and thermostat housing, $1000 for a new fuel pump, and $600 for new valve cover gaskets. AND the lens cover for the lights on the trunk lid fell off and costs $300 for a replacement. Because it's a cosmetic issue, I have not spent the money on that. All of this while being unemployed for the last year.

I am sick and tired of this piece of junk GM car and it's a freakin Cadillac. So I ask you not to lecture people who have damn good reason to bash companies who have been putting out inferior products for some time.
 
curt656 said:
Sorry Sterling, but I take a little offense by this. I own a 2003 Cadillac CTS with 55,000 miles. I have spent $2000 in transmission repairs, $400 for a new thermostat and thermostat housing, $1000 for a new fuel pump, and $600 for new valve cover gaskets. AND the lens cover for the lights on the trunk lid fell off and costs $300 for a replacement. Because it's a cosmetic issue, I have not spent the money on that. All of this while being unemployed for the last year.

I am sick and tired of this piece of junk GM car and it's a freakin Cadillac. So I ask you not to lecture people who have damn good reason to bash companies who have been putting out inferior products for some time.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have a legitimate *****, I would be pissed also. My chevy equinox on the other hand has required nothing more than oil and a light bulb in the 42k miles I have driven it. For every person with a story like yours, you will find many more that haven't had any trouble with their vehicle.
 
I have 2 GM products, A 1998 GMC Savanna 2500 12 passenger van with 104k on it . Three things done on it since new, The steering box was weeping a little and replaced under warranty , Water pump and a window lift motor.

2001 Firebird replaced the window lift motor drivers side thats it.


I actually have have very good luck with the American cars I have owned. 1998 jeep Cherokee with the 4.0 just wont die with 234k on her and I haven't done a damn thing to it other than change the oil brakes and tune ups.My 3500 Ram CTD 2 years not one issue. My wife gets a new company car every 3 years all Chryslers and only one went back to the dealer and that was a recall for the seatbelt bolt.


Now my son works for a Toyota/Subaru dealer(they just dropped Subaru) and he is super busy with warranty work bad trannies on Tundra's brakes that are shot in 15k, rear axles breaking. Shoddy PS pumps and lots of little crap on other models. their quality control went down hill as they pushed to become the #1 worldwide auto maker. You will hear as many if not more horror stories about imports.

Like the bandaid for leaking heads on Subarus . TSB states to use stopleak before doing service work ..They even make a stopleak for their cars
 

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