The "bad advice I got from the LBHS" thread

[Pickngrin]

Talking about the one on Murphy Rd? If so, he's the same guy who told me anyone who goes all-gran is nuts and there's no reason to do so. But with the prices he charges for extract, I can see why. Not to bad-mouth too hard, but I've had alot of bad experiences there.

Yeah, that's the one. The size of the store is impressive, but beyond that, I'm far from impressed. Anyone who goes all-grain is nuts? LOL!

 

[Pickngrin]

Very good points, Revvy, and eloquently put.

We get threads like this all the time.... remember, not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago. They also may only brew kits. Or simply JUST be of the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality.

But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learning new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

I'm lucky I have quite a few homebrew shops to choose from, one that I can walk to, although his selection is limited due to not a lot of business (which we hb'ers in town are trying to correct)- AND he just told me that it looks like he might be moving right across the street from my loft

(and opening a pico-winery and perhaps a brew on premise)

Then halfway between work and home, around the corner from my sister's house is the Holy mecca of Homebrew shops, Cap N Cork (which IIRC is the first hbs in metro detroit) it's large, has a high turnover so ingredients are fresh, and has quite a few employees, most of who are a passionate about brewing as we are...but even there you have a few oldtimers, who don't read every book, or look at forums, so they might not be up on the latest things...

One thing to remember, This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...

It is podcasts and forums like this where you will find a lot more state of the art, or current views, and even scientific information...I mean if Jamil, John Palmer or Papazian even farts on a podcast, one of us beergeeks are going to start a thread on it within 10 minutes.

So if you are dealing with ab old school LHBS owner/employee...don't back down, and don't let him get to you...

Remember- It is HUMAN nature to scorn that which we don't understand... It even happens on here sometimes, when someone attempt to break new ground, or suggest something different from common wisdom (we still get people who scorn the idea of long primaries, and still believe in autolysis)...but it really is not the norm here.

But not necessarily "out there" in the world of Home brew shops.

In fact if you have one like that, Don't even tell him what you are doing buy your stuff, give him your money, and whistle your way out the door..knowing that what you might be attempting is probably light years ahead of HIS knowlege base.....

 

[Dwain]

You can be suprised. I went to a very well thought of store. I told the guy helping me I wanted to start lagering. I got all of my goods and asked a procedural question. He said "It doesn't matter if you're making ale or lager. You do it the same way, temperature and all, just use a different yeast. It's the yeast that makes it an ale or lager". In retrospect, I should have quietly talked to the manager. If I were running a shop, I would want to know. Plus, the more shops, the merrier. - Dwain

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

The thing that gets me about bad advice is; If they just started giving good advice, they might keep the newbies into the hobby.

I did enough research before my first batches that I never had any major problems. The beer turned out great and I was hooked from there. BUT, I had a friend who listened to the LHBS, he brewed a koelsch, and it turned out horrible. He hasn't brewed since, even though he spent all that money getting into the hobby.

 

[Ksosh]

My bad LHBS advice (one gem of many): Making a strong scottish ale (second brew ever), and took the recipe into the store. The recipe I found online called for 9+ pounds of liquid amber extract, and the LHBS guy looked at it and said 'Oh, you want to bump this down to 6 pounds of extract'.

...which is fine... if you want an OG of 1.045 or so... instead of 1.070+ for the style I was trying to brew... so I ended up with 'strong scotch ale' that had 1/2 the ABV (and maltiness) that it should have had.

 

[JesseRC]

Yesterday I go to my LHBS and well he serves draft beer, so I am sipping on a pint and its only him and I in the store. I dont usually frequent this store but I needed a lid for my fermenter.

So I start telling him that I am trying to duplicate a Bridgeport Blackstrap Stout. I tell him how I have heard horrible things about using mollases in beer. So he suggest that it will probably be okay as long as I retain some sweetness in the stout. So I say, so I should mash higher then? He says , well you wanna try to get as many fermentables as you can, so he tells me I should mash at around 146. Am I missing something here?

 

[lamarguy]

Yesterday I go to my LHBS and well he serves draft beer, so I am sipping on a pint and its only him and I in the store. I dont usually frequent this store but I needed a lid for my fermenter.

Ya, Todd usually makes the experience pretty awkward. The place is cluttered, dirty, etc. I think his primary business is selling beer, not homebrew supplies.

So I start telling him that I am trying to duplicate a Bridgeport Blackstrap Stout. I tell him how I have heard horrible things about using mollases in beer. So he suggest that it will probably be okay as long as I retain some sweetness in the stout. So I say, so I should mash higher then? He says , well you wanna try to get as many fermentables as you can, so he tells me I should mash at around 146. Am I missing something here?

98% of the molasses will completely ferment, so yes, you should mash higher to give it balance and go easy on the addition (too much is overpowering). But, 146 is the wrong direction, try 155+.

 

[knightbeer39]

My LHBS is the small corner of a very large store that does a completely unrelated business as their primary business (a hot tub store, actually). Anyway, I have always been torn because while I want to support my LHBS (and I spend a fair amount of money every month), the prices are always too high and the advice I listen to him give is TERRIBLE most of the time. I know a lot more about brewing than this fellow, but I swear I have heard him give deliberately erroneous advice to move something off the shelves that isn't selling well.

I've heard this guy tell people there is no need to buy malt extract that corn sugar works just fine as a primary fermentable and you won't be able to tell the difference.

I've heard the guy say that plastic was far superior to glass as your fermentor--this on the day I noticed that he had far more Ale Pails laying around than usual.

I've heard the guy say the same thing as the poster above, that lagers and ales ferment at the same temperature.

etc.

So now I order everything online, usually in bulk, and I only visit the LHBS for emergency supplies--like when you break the damn hydrometer! I don't want to do that; I want to give the local shop my money. But if they aren't going to improve their knowledge, stock and prices and are going to give the used car salesman routine to all the newbies, I just can't justify giving them much of my hard earned $$

That's my two cents.....

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

98% of the molasses will completely ferment, so yes, you should mash higher to give it balance and go easy on the addition (too much is overpowering). But, 146 is the wrong direction, try 155+.

I completely agree with you as far as using molasses goes, but I think the LHBS owner did give good info. He just gave the wrong info.

If I'm looking for more fermentables out of my malt, I mash on the low side, between 146-148. If I'm looking for maltiness and less fermentables, I mash in the mid-high 150's. Now...that being said...his statement was correct, he just didn't figure in that molasses doesn't need help in conversion as grains go.

 

[niquejim]

I've heard the guy say that plastic was far superior to glass as your fermentor--this on the day I noticed that he had far more Ale Pails laying around than usual.

Well, I kind of agree with him there, although the rest was pretty bad advice

 

[lamarguy]

If I'm looking for more fermentables out of my malt, I mash on the low side, between 146-148.

Just so you know, maximum fermentability is achieved at 149F.

 

[knightbeer39]

Well, I kind of agree with him there, although the rest was pretty bad advice

I guess its a matter of personal preference; plastic has the potential for scratches that can harbor bacteria. Glass, much less so. I personally don't ferment anything in plastic anymore, only glass carboys or demijohns.

 

[JesseRC]

I completely agree with you as far as using molasses goes, but I think the LHBS owner did give good info. He just gave the wrong info.

If I'm looking for more fermentables out of my malt, I mash on the low side, between 146-148. If I'm looking for maltiness and less fermentables, I mash in the mid-high 150's. Now...that being said...his statement was correct, he just didn't figure in that molasses doesn't need help in conversion as grains go.

Yup, you're right on that! He did give the right info for gettin the most fermentables, but he didnt tell me how I was supposed to achieve a sweeter Stout. I was just shooting the breeze anyway. I asked hime about his grain prices, they sound reasonable, he said they range from 1.50 to 1.99. Sounds good.

 

[hexmonkey]

Just so you know, maximum fermentability is achieved at 149F.

I've never heard this stated anywhere...where did you get this information from?

Not trying to argue with you, I'm just curious.

 

[lamarguy]

Table #3:

Highest yield of fermentable extract - 149F

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I've never heard this stated anywhere...where did you get this information from?

Not trying to argue with you, I'm just curious.

Based on the charts I have seen, I thought Beta Amylase maxed out at about 145*F. That would give you a THIN brew, though.

I tend to shoot for the "magic number" of 152*F, depending on the type.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

Table #3:

Highest yield of fermentable extract - 149F

OK, I see that. I guess my "145" must have come from the row below that one.

 

[lamarguy]

Based on the charts I have seen, I thought Beta Amylase maxed out at about 145*F. That would give you a THIN brew, though.

I tend to shoot for the "magic number" of 152*F, depending on the type.

Yup, 145F would produce a very thin beer and you'd lose extract points. From the same table:

Highest percentage fermentability - 145.4F
Fastest saccharification (dextrinization) - 158F
Highest Extract (mostly starch conversion) - 149F - 154.4F

 

[hexmonkey]

I'm confused by:
Highest percentage fermentability - 145.4F

Why is that different from "Highest yield of fermentable extract"?

How can you have a higher percentage fermentability and not actually yield as much?

 

[lamarguy]

I'm confused by:
Highest percentage fermentability - 145.4F

Why is that different from "Highest yield of fermentable extract"?

How can you have a higher percentage fermentability and not actually yield as much?

As lower temperatures (e.g. 145F), you get more simple sugars which increases the fermentability percentage. But the fermentable extract yield is lower since it takes [literally] forever for a mash to convert all of the available starches at lower temperatures. For example, it's been reported that BMC uses a step mash that starts at 140F and very slowly steps up to 158F (focusing on the 145F - 149F range) to obtain high fermentability and extract yield.

At higher temperatures, the extract conversion is much faster but results in more complex sugars that are not as easily consumed by yeast, which decreases the fermentability percentage. So, through experimentation, it was found the optimal fermentable extract yield occurs at 149F (2 hour mash). See Figure 6 below:

Figure 6 - extract (solid lines) and fermentable extract (dashed lines) achieved with isothermal mashes at 3 different temperatures. (Data by Windisch, Kolbach and Schild via [Briggs, 2004]

 

[user 19629]

...................I swear I have heard him give deliberately erroneous advice to move something off the shelves that isn't selling well.
.............................................
.

That's how I ended up 3%AA spalt instead of the cascade I was looking for

 

[Pleepleus]

First time I ever decided to brew, I went into my shop and got a bunch of equipment, everything I needed. I proceeded to look at the vast array of kits, and the guy comes over and picks up the "Smoked Porter" kit, and tells me I should give it a try. I was really new to craftbeers, Sierra Nevada seemed outlandish and adventurous, and I had never homebrewed. Doesn't a smoked Porter sound like a really odd selection? Of course I listened to him, it turned out terrible, and I didn't brew again for almost two years. Thankfully after getting into drinking good beers, and moving to the PNW, I was swayed back into interest, found this site, and have brewed many a good batch since.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I wouldn't give a smoked beer to even the most seasoned beer drinkers. I can't stand the stuff, so I won't put other people through that torture.

 

[Pleepleus]

Yeah, I've since tried several homebrewed and commercial smoked porters, and have yet to try one that I could finish. In retrospect, I am almost certain that this was an old kit that they probably were more than happy to unload on the unsuspecting kid I was at the time.

 

[smalltown2001]

The mistake I made early in my brewing career was to ask the LHBS if all-grain beers are really that much better than extract. Of course they told me that it wouldn't be so, that you can make as good of beers with extract as you can with all-grain. Which I'm sure you can, but of course there is some bias to their response. They make a lot more money on the extract than the grains. I know a fellow homebrewer that goes to the same shop, still does extract but kegs his beer, and I asked him why he hasn't gone all-grain yet, and he said it was too messy and too much time and a lot of equipment. Whether that is from his experience, or from what the homebrew store has convinced him to think is yet to be determined. I've learned that a lot of advice you have to take with a grain of salt, and you can only determine what is true and what is myth from experience.

 

[Pickngrin]

.... I've learned that a lot of advice you have to take with a grain of salt, and you can only determine what is true and what is myth from experience.

Gypsum or calcium chloride?

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

The mistake I made early in my brewing career was to ask the LHBS if all-grain beers are really that much better than extract. Of course they told me that it wouldn't be so, that you can make as good of beers with extract as you can with all-grain. Which I'm sure you can, but of course there is some bias to their response. They make a lot more money on the extract than the grains. I know a fellow homebrewer that goes to the same shop, still does extract but kegs his beer, and I asked him why he hasn't gone all-grain yet, and he said it was too messy and too much time and a lot of equipment. Whether that is from his experience, or from what the homebrew store has convinced him to think is yet to be determined. I've learned that a lot of advice you have to take with a grain of salt, and you can only determine what is true and what is myth from experience.

Pretty much everything you've said about all-grain here is true. Not really messy, but it can be. Also, in all-grain, there's more variables. This means more to mess up. I fully believe you can make excellent quality beers with extract. And I'm an all-grain brewer. The only difference between the two is no using pre-converted malt, and having more control over the finished beer.

 

[Ridebreck]

I've been lucky enough to never receive bad advice from LHBS. Great guys over there with good knowledge. If they dont know it, they will walk next door and talk to the guys at the brewery that is attached.

The brewery attached just won Small Brewery of the Year at GABF. Big props to Dry Dock

Same with my LHBS in the Springs. The store is actually within the brewery (Rocky Mountain Brewery) and you can brew on premisis. The guys are passionate about beer and are very willing to help. Some of the employees are more seasoned than others, but since I know who the owner and head brewer are, I know who to go to when I need a good answer.

 

[rwinzing]

I go to Joe at Princenton Homebrew and he is amazing.....I don't order anything online because he will get it for me and I would rather give him the business

 

[HalfPint]

I'm not going to say what LHBS I go to in Houston, Tx, but the one I go to seems to know there stuff. I have read quite a few books on the subject and have researched it for more hours than I can count over the years. Like many others, I often quiz the guys at the beer store even if I know the answer. I wouldn't say I quiz them, but I often ask for their advice even if I know how to do what I'm asking. I typically get good advice.

This is the test that I've found they really know there stuff:

I go knowing what hops I need for my brew and what the best substitutions are if they are out of the first pick. I ask them what would be the best substitution for say "X" hop and they have time and time again told me the one I had on my list off the top of their head.

I no longer wonder if they know what they're talking about.