That "home brew flavor"

[cscade]

You mean you are mixing up more than you need or you are using it on things you shouldn't?

Mixing more than I need. Even at 2.5 gallons, I still feel like I'm wasting it.

I sanitize everything, so I know what you mean about a "clean zone". I wouldn't even use a clean paper towel as you suggest, in my mind there could be cooties on there too... like I said, I'm detail oriented

After watching Yuri_Rage's videos on All Grain and seeing how he uses starsan in a garden sprayer, I can see that I have been "misusing" starsan. I have actually been immersing my bottles and then letting them drip dry, seems that that's actually totally overkill. I will likely go the sprayer route now as well.

 

[cscade]

Large yeast starters - I started with 1 liter starters and I have a 2L flask on the way and just made a stir plate for it. Jamil Zainasheff is fanatic about proper pitch rates. I noticed a huge difference when I began making starters. You reduce lag time and reduce stress on the yeast. Stress causes them to produce all kinds of wacky stuff and can easily result in them giving up way to soon leaving you with unfinished fermentation.

Proper Aearation - Either 60 minutes of aeration with an aquarium pump, sanitary air filter and stainless steel diffuser stone or 30 seconds with a pure 02 bottle from home depot through a stainless steel diffuser stone. This provides plenty of oxygen for the yeast which they need for the aerobic phase. This lets them multiply as much as possible, reduces stress, etc. Aerating your starters is also helpful in getting a good viable pitch rate.

I will definitely explore these two things in more detail. I didn't know it was so easy to get oxygen. Sounds like the best way to go.

How did you make a stir plate?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I know exactly what you are talking about, and most homebrews in my experience do have it. The cause, IMHO, has to do with misinformed noob brewing. Old extract, low quality extract, non-vigorous boil, under hopped (due to concentrated boil), over carmelization (again due to concentrated boil), bad recipes, slow cooling times, under aerated, improper yeast pitching temperature, pitching to little viable yeast, fermenting to hot, and drinking beer to young. These are the main problems I have seen and can all be easily remedied.

I suggest reading "How to Brew" it is basic and give good sound principals.

Now to stick my foot in the fire... I know many people say that they brew great beer with extract and everyone raves about it, and on and on, and they win awards and all this. I do believe that some people do this, with proper extract sourcing, special recipes that properly use what the extract offers, and other processes to make it work. However, I have never had a HB made from extract that was very good. Don't get me wrong, most HB AG or not are not very good. Brewing a truly good beer is a very difficult thing to do, and it may be that most brewers switch to AG once they have a good enough handle on things to start making great beers. I am just saying that the strange "homebrewed" taste is what I associate with extract brews, for the many reasons listed above, and a deep seeded suspicion of extracts potential.

 

[StoutFan]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/another-diy-stir-plate-99007/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/box-free-design-another-diy-stir-plate-30916/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/my-homebrew-stirplate-8850/index3.html

 

[DankBrewHa]

Freshness!

 

[cscade]

Freshness!

As in, too much of it?

 

[farmbrewernw]

I think it almost takes more skill to make a good extract brew than it does to make a good AG brew. I as well don't want to start a flame war because I know you can make good extract brew, I have done it myself, but you have to use fresh ingredients and you have to know all of the tricks associated with extract brewing to make a good beer. I know Revvy hates it when we say extract brewing is bad, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying you better have your process down, I've had many extract brews that have had that HB flavor, I think a lot of people over look it, but to me it's the first thing I taste when it's there and I can't forget it the whole time I'm drinking. So if your going to do extract use fresh ingredients, do late extract additions, full boils, pitch plenty of yeast, and control fermenting temps.

 

[BarleyWater]

I fermented my first batch (a Kolsch kit, dry yeast, rehydrated) at ~64f average. When I say average, the temp ranged from 60f at night to 71f at most during the day. It was the best I could do in a wood heated house without a specific means of regulating the fermenter.

This is going to absolutely kill any chance you have of finishing with a decent FG and will give you some crazy off flavors. A three degree swing is about the max you want, and you have an 11 degree swing. The amount of stress this is putting on the yeast is enormous, and will make them put out some phenols and esters that you don't want, and it will make them go dormant before they finish the job, leaving your beer underattenuated.

The most important aspect in making a good beer aside from ingredient selection, is fermentation temps. A stable fermentation temp can make an undrinkable beer a medal winner.

 

[Homercidal]

Well, the thing about extract kits is that you don't have all the control that an AG brewer has. You just get to use what they give you as far as fermentables. I've made a copule of very good (IMO) extract beers and some that were good enough. There are tricks to lessen the "problems" with some extract beers like using fresh extract, using DME over liquid, proper fermenting temps, pitching enough yeast, late extract additions,etc.

Many of the tricks can apply to AG brewing as well though. I must say that I have never experienced anything that I would call "homebrew flavor". None of my batches had anything in common across the board.

 

[Grinder12000]

You guys are missing the obvious.

occam's razor

They are drinking unfiltered ALE!!! instead of lagers.

Ales are always softer then a lager. UNLESS his friends are drinking a lot of unfiltered micro brews

Don't get me started on Extract vs. AG. Some of the worst home brews I've tasted are AG! It's all about the person making the beer - not the process.

From my experience it's how good you are at making beer. A good extract brewer (mini mash at least) can make GREAT beer. Same with AG. The problem is I see very few GOOD AG brewers. Too many thigns can go wrong.

In theory AG will make a better beer. BUT - that means you have to be a better brewers.

It's like poker - In THEORY you can make a LOT more money playing NL - BUT - you also have to be a lot better poker player.

 

[BierMuncher]

Just keep brewing.

After you brew more, refine your techniques, eventually move to the same process that commercial breweries use (that means going all grain) and get 20+ batches under your belts, those issues will go away.

I don't remember the last time I tasted that "homebrew" taste...except maybe a recent swap.

And remember...some styles are supposed to have some lingering yeast sweetness...like a good wit.

 

[Tonedef131]

Yeast handling. Pitching rates and proper fermentation temps are what separate people from saying "that's good for a homebrew" and people saying "that is the single best beer I have ever had in my life". Full boils and quick chilling are also going to make your beer taste much cleaner and less like "homebrew".

Going all grain does not necessarily mean better beer. In fact, for someone starting out their all grain beers will probably be worse. In order to make beers out of all grain that are better than extract means you have to make better extract than the extract companies...which is no easy task. That said, all grain is a blast and gives you all kinds of control, so do what you like.

 

[Talloak]

I also pick up a 'twang' from liquid extract, and I don't like it. I stay away from liquid extract now and stick to DME.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I'm in danger of stereotyping myself here, but I know that taste well. I believe that the single best thing that can be done to eliminate that taste is to do a full boil (Or at least as big a boil as possible.) Of course there are many other factors that have also been mentioned so far in this thread, but for myself the full boil made by far the biggest difference in my own extracts regarding that particular taste.

 

[cscade]

Really good responses from everyone. I never expected this kind of feedback!

So if I am reading correctly, it seems that the priority order for improvement is;

1. Full Boils
2. Fermentation Temperature Control
3. Yeast Starter
4. O2 infusion

Yes?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

If you go to full boils, I would add a wort chiller as #2, more so out of "I'm going to kill myself if this doesn't cool down soon" factor than anything else. Without a wort chiller of some kind 5g's takes a long time to cool down.

 

[farmbrewernw]

+1 on the wort chiller, you'll probably get impatient and pitch your yeast at too hot of a temp if you try to cool 5 gal of wort in an ice bath. Oh and add partial late extract addition to that list, it really makes a difference.

 

[blackwaterbrewer]

does the original poster use tap water or bottled water? not to fuel the fire, but my friend who i showed how to brew 2 months ago is making incredible minimash beer. i am going through some AG growing pains. his first brew was one of the best homemade beers i have ever had, an extract-with-steeped-grains sierra nevada clone. a forgiving beer but it was right on the money.

 

[yermej]

+1 on the wort chiller, you'll probably get impatient and pitch your yeast at too hot of a temp if you try to cool 5 gal of wort in an ice bath. Oh and add partial late extract addition to that list, it really makes a difference.

Is there a reason to do late extract addition if you're doing a full boil? I was under the impression that wort is wort once you've actually got the concentration right, which would be when you have either a partial boil with late extract or a full boil. Is that wrong?

 

[Danek]

Is there a reason to do late extract addition if you're doing a full boil?

I believe the reason people do late extract additions is to minimize caramelising the extract. This caramelization darkens the beer, and can sometimes give flavors that you may not want.

 

[farmbrewernw]

My impression has always been that liquid malt extract has been boiled longer to drive off the water, because of this if you were to boil all of the extract for an additional hour you will increase the SRM as well as give the extract more caramelized flavors.

 

[cscade]

How exactly does one do a "late addition" on a 60 minute boil using entirely DME?

Do you actually throw the bittering hops in the water alone, and then add the extract later?

A little explanation here would be much appreciated!

I do have a chiller (freebie from a friend), so I'm good on that.

 

[farmbrewernw]

You want to put some of the DME into the boil at 60 min, I used to do about a third of the extract needed. There has to be some extract in the boil for hop utilization purposes. The rest of the extract can be added at the 10-5 min mark. I bet if you do a search for late extract addition you'll find a more complete explanation. To be honest it's been a long time since I've done extract batches so I'm a little rusty.

 

[Yooper]

Really good responses from everyone. I never expected this kind of feedback!

So if I am reading correctly, it seems that the priority order for improvement is;

1. Full Boils
2. Fermentation Temperature Control
3. Yeast Starter
4. O2 infusion

Yes?

Well, yes and no. I'd say more like this:

1. Better ingredients (FRESH extract, and do a partial mash ALWAYS)
2. Temperature control and Yeast starter or good quality dry yeast (Tied)
3. full boil
4. Cool quickly- wort chiller

The o2 infusion/aeration goes along with healthy yeast, but is more forgiving than the other items I listed.

 

[farmbrewernw]

I'll second that, partial mashing really will make a difference, and I have never done an aeration/ infusion to this day and have had no trouble getting attenuation.

 

[cscade]

Well, yes and no. I'd say more like this:

1. Better ingredients (FRESH extract, and do a partial mash ALWAYS)
2. Temperature control and Yeast starter or good quality dry yeast (Tied)
3. full boil
4. Cool quickly- wort chiller

The o2 infusion/aeration goes along with healthy yeast, but is more forgiving than the other items I listed.

Are you saying dry yeast is better than wet (as in Wyeast smack packs)?

My local brew supply store is highly reputable (www.grapeandgranary.com)
so I doubt ingredient freshness will be a concern. I'll search on partial mashing so I'm sure I know what you're referring to.

I'll have #3 shortly, and #4 is covered.

 

[Yooper]

Are you saying dry yeast is better than wet (as in Wyeast smack packs)?

My local brew supply store is highly reputable (www.grapeandgranary.com)
so I doubt ingredient freshness will be a concern. I'll search on partial mashing so I'm sure I know what you're referring to.

I'll have #3 shortly, and #4 is covered.

No, I'm not saying dry yeast is better than liquid. But I'm saying that in the dry packages, there are more than enough yeast cells to ferment a 5 gallon batch. Not necessarily so in the liquid packages, so if you're using liquid, you're better off with a starter. If you're not making a starter, use a good quality dry like Nottingham or SO5. (Not Coopers or Muntons)

Freshness is always a concern. The extract in cans has been there for quite a while in the can, and then it might have been on the shelf a while, no matter how reputable the homebrew store is. Fresh grain and fresh extract will go a long way to get rid of that "homebrew" taste.

 

[cscade]

No, I'm not saying dry yeast is better than liquid. But I'm saying that in the dry packages, there are more than enough yeast cells to ferment a 5 gallon batch. Not necessarily so in the liquid packages, so if you're using liquid, you're better off with a starter. If you're not making a starter, use a good quality dry like Nottingham or SO5. (Not Coopers or Muntons)

Freshness is always a concern. The extract in cans has been there for quite a while in the can, and then it might have been on the shelf a while, no matter how reputable the homebrew store is. Fresh grain and fresh extract will go a long way to get rid of that "homebrew" taste.

Understood.

Would one be advised to make a starter regardless of yeast type? I think I have the materials to build a stir plate around here.

 

[farmbrewernw]

Well with a good dry yeast no, but if your using a liquid yeast you should. You don't even need to have a stir plate, it helps, but you can just get a small jug place a piece of tin foil over the top and swirl it around a couple of times a day. Pitch around high krausen and your good to go.

 

[bnscherm]

I also used to have a problem with the "homebrew taste". I later figured it out to be related to the crappy Muntons Dry Ale yeast I was using, and liquid malt extract.

After switching to all-grain, and vowing never to use the Muntons ale yeast again, my beer comes out exceptionally clear, and tastes great. FWIW, the first thing I tried was to switch to full boils (with extract), and that didn't make any difference in the "homebrew taste" for me. I think the yeast was my biggest problem.