That German Lager taste

[Broothru]

Hello,

I can try to answer your questions. The sauergut will end up in the low 3's of pH. Knowing the amount if acidity of your batch is tricky and I kind of fly by the seat of my pants here. After some uses and measuring, I get about 3 points of pH drop by using an entire 32 oz mason jar 15 minutes before the end of the boil. This is for a 5 gallon batch on my system. I add it at the end to try and maximize flavor. My pH schedule is 5.4-5.6 for the mash, adjust to 5.4 for the boil (except hefeweizen) then adjust to 5.1 before the end of the boil and before adding Whirlfloc. My understanding is that pH of 5.4 is optimal for hop utilization and Whirlfloc works best under or around pH 5.2.

Just to be sure, you mean 3 tenths of a pH for roughly 32 fl oz . Otherwise we're gettin' into sulphuric acid territory!

And I agree with your pH targets for mash, boil and kettle finings. We must be reading the same web postings. Thanks for the explanation. That all seems to make sense to me now. How long have you kept sauergut in the refrigerator? I'm thinking that making six jars, just like in the video, would just about be optimal for the amount of work involved. But it would probably take me 2~3 months to brew 6 batches, especially since my rotation includes more than just German lagers.

 

[Bassman2003]

Ha! Yes, .3 pH points... I have some jars in the fridge from that video shoot that still look good. So 6-9+ months. I think it makes a difference to brew low O2 wort and really try to keep the oxygen out for longevity. As long as the color of the sauergut is light it is good. When they go dark the oxidation has taken over.

I am the same with a varied brew schedule which is why I make the per batch sauergut as opposed to have a fed reactor.

 

[Bilsch]

There's something missing in my understanding about pH in the discussion on this thread so far, primarily centering on how acidic the sauergut is when finished, which then will determine (or at least allow me to calculate) how much of the sauergut to add. Also confusing to me is when to add it.

What I meant with my statement about pH meter being required for sauergut was related to it's making. You need to be sure you are below pH 4.7 or so at the beginning or the lactic ferment will not get started properly and dominate. Acidity of finished batches range from 0.7%-1.8% when making it batchwise and as high as 3% for fed reactors. To determine the acidity of each run you need to titrate it and then use that data to calculate the amount to add for a certain pH reduction. Or just do it empirically like Bassman suggests.

I have also managed to keep sealed mason jars of SG for as long as 9 months when stored below 40F in the dark. Just like beer, the colder the better.

 

[Bilsch]

This kinds of reminds me of a fruitful discussion that happened on this site a bit more than a year ago.... If I recall correctly I think it had something to do with whether German breweries de-areate their water for the brewhouse or not...

I don't remember it being fruitful, only my serious doubt about your connection in Weihenstephan.
Anyway now we know for sure what the real answer is.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

2 hours is too long for me to watch a video.
Can anyone sum it up in a few sentences? I will buy you a beer!

 

[Bilsch]

2 hours is too long for me to watch a video.
Can anyone sum it up in a few sentences? I will buy you a beer!

Go to 1:03:40 and listen to the answers to the first question.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for posting Bilsch! Now, we have an example from two great breweries that oxygen mitigation is foremost on their minds in the brewhouse. Can we move beyond the 'myth' aspect of this topic? It does not matter if one does not think it is important, the fact remains it IS important to these brewers. And they make some pretty good examples to compare against.

Brew on.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I don't remember it being fruitful, only my serious doubt about your connection in Weihenstephan.
Anyway now we know for sure what the real answer is.

Hi Bilsch!
Great videointerview, thanks for sharing! So far I got to about 2/3 of it. Besides the oxygen part, I also found their discussion on decoction really interesting. The yeast and water chemistry parts were a bit more common knowledge, but interesting as well. Still found bits of information here and there I never heard about. Btw., from his own words Mr. Zollo seems to accept at least a little bit of oxidation into the equation of his decoction mashing process, but I'll stop here

As for my connection...well after almost 2 years since that "discussion", I sent him a polite but at the same time slightly irritated e-mail yesterday with a link to this video. Although I do not expect a response to be honest.
I mean come on, a person in his position must know the intimate workings of Weihenstephaner at the very least, and most probably of other important bavarian breweries as well. So the only other possibility is that he was misleading me on purpose.
Anyway no bad feelings at all here! I have no problems admitting I got the wrong information and I sure as hell learned something from that experience.
Brew on!

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Thanks for posting Bilsch! Now, we have an example from two great breweries that oxygen mitigation is foremost on their minds in the brewhouse. Can we move beyond the 'myth' aspect of this topic? It does not matter if one does not think it is important, the fact remains it IS important to these brewers. And they make some pretty good examples to compare against.

Brew on.

Does every brewery do this? AB, Miller-Coors, Boston Beer Co.? Is O2 elimination a major concern for each and every home brewer?

 

[duncan.brown]

Does every brewery do this?

No.

AB, Miller-Coors,

Absolutely, yes. In fact, they also high-gravity brew and dilute with deaerated water for efficiency. The US macro’s primary concerning brewing is consistency and stability of a delicately flavored product (which leads to profits). While I don’t always reach for a macro lager, I do enjoy them as I have huge respect for their brewing process.

Boston Beer Co.?

Most likely, if Sierra Nevada does, although I don’t know for sure.

Is O2 elimination a major concern for each and every home brewer?

Nope. Depends what you want to do. I make what I and my friends think are great-tasing pale lagers without worrying about LODO. Could they be better with LODO? Probably yes, as making great lager means obsessing over every aspect of the process. Does this mean I can’t make true-to-taste Bavarian-style pale lagers? Probably I can't, but I’m a home brewer and I can live with that and going LODO isn’t worth the reward for me.

Plus, is it really the low-oxygen techniques that make Bavarian pale lagers taste so good, or is it drinking them like this?

 

[duncan.brown]

Also, Heineken, I’ll give you the rights to that for free...

 

[Bassman2003]

Does every brewery do this? AB, Miller-Coors, Boston Beer Co.? Is O2 elimination a major concern for each and every home brewer?

Duncan has a great post above but I have to ask - what does "every home brewer" have to do with process & technique knowledge? Just because process techniques used by the best brewers in the world are discussed does not mean that is a directive that everybody needs to follow. The defensiveness around this topic is immense and a complete mystery to me...

The science is out there. The process is out there. In the end it is up to the individual to decide if they want to follow the steps. BUT, if they do not choose to follow the steps, that does NOT invalidate the science/process/technique. It just means they do not want to do it. Which of course is fine.

Oxidation is going to occur no matter what one believes or cares about. The end flavor is the only concern for each and every brewer to decide upon imho.

 

[duncan.brown]

The science is out there. The process is out there. In the end it is up to the individual to decide if they want to follow the steps.

Agreed. Something that gets often lost in this discussion at the home-brew scale is that favor stability is hugely important for big breweries, and total packaged oxygen is the enemy of flavor stability. Much of the drive to reduce oxygen is to reduce TPO for stability. AB-InBev wants a Bud Light to taste the same after 6 months in a can on the unrefrigerated shelf of a 7-11 as it does on the day it's packaged (at one of their many facilities that produce identical beer all over the world). Sierra Nevada Pale Ale had better taste the same every time. Same with the big German breweries. The skill and process needed to produce identical, flavor stable beer is incredible.

However, as a home brewer, my beer has to travel 8 feet from my keezer to the taps in my bar. The fact that I can drink faster than I can brew is a much bigger problem for me than my TPO! LODO does raise hackles, though. Sometimes, I think people just like to argue on the internet...

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I am on a quest to brew the same beer, day in, day out. The German Pils brewed last month should taste just like the German Pils we brew in 2 months.

We only bottle for comps, but that is where you might pick up oxygen.

 

[duncan.brown]

I am on a quest to brew the same beer, day in, day out. The German Pils brewed last month should taste just like the German Pils we brew in 2 months.

I don't disagree. I guess I distinguish between:

1. Reproducibility: Does my beer taste the same every time I brew the same recipe?
2. Replicability: Can I brew the same beer as Hoffbrau serves me in Munich? (Or can AB-InBev brew the same Bud Light in Newark, NJ as they do in St Louis, MO).
3. Stability: Will the beer taste exactly the same six months from packaging?

Personally, I care a lot about 1. To me, that's the sign of a good brewer, home or pro. I don't care about 2 or 3, as long as my beer tastes good when I drink it.

The big brewers care about all of the above.

 

[Bilsch]

However, as a home brewer, my beer has to travel 8 feet from my keezer to the taps in my bar. The fact that I can drink faster than I can brew is a much bigger problem for me than my TPO! LODO does raise hackles, though. Sometimes, I think people just like to argue on the internet...

This is very true about oxidation on the cold side. If you drink it fast then you won't notice a change because at these temperatures, staling from oxygen pick up on the cold side happens slow.

However on the hot side any oxygen introduced is scavenged in a matter of minutes by the antioxidants in the malt. The amount used depends on the oxygen load in your mash but the first to go are your delicate fresh malt flavors. Whatever antioxidants used up on the hot side, no matter what you do, cannot be recovered on the cold side. The best you can do is delay any further oxidation and staling.

This is the major point about HSA we are trying to convey. People will often say, "well I'll just drink my beer faster" but unless you start drinking it from the mashtun, for some of the most delicate malt flavors, it's too late.

Why any given brewer should care about HSA of course depends on what style he is making, what flavors he likes and considers to be the most important. Some people are perfectly happy with their beers the way they are and to that I say great. I'm happy if they are happy! However for those brewers, especially of continental lagers, who know there is something missing.. then here is the avenue to pursue.

 

[duncan.brown]

However on the hot side any oxygen introduced is scavenged in a matter of minutes by the antioxidants in the malt. The amount used depends on the oxygen load in your mash but the first to go are your delicate fresh malt flavors. Whatever antioxidants used up on the hot side, no matter what you do, cannot be recovered on the cold side. The best you can do is delay any further oxidation and staling.

Absolutely, my discussion of TPO was not to imply that HSA does not have impact on flavors. Things like oxidation of fatty acids in the malt will happen regardless of TPO, if you let it.

Why any given brewer should care about HSA of course depends on what style he is making, what flavors he likes and considers to be the most important. Some people are perfectly happy with their beers the way they are and to that I say great. I'm happy if you are happy!

Yep. My home-brew is good enough that the people who drink it like it. I also think that my home brew is better than some of the continental lagers that I get in the supermarket here in New York, especially the ones that have taken some abuse on the trip over and then spent a while on the shelf in Wegmans. Although, thankfully the introduction of cans with dates is changing that. However, I'm lucky enough that if I really want a proper Bavarian pale lager, I'll find an excuse to visit my collaborators in Germany so I don't need to chase it at home.

However for those brewers, especially of continental lagers, who know there is something missing.. then here is the avenue to pursue.

Agreed. For me it's an effort/reward ratio. Personally, my next avenue is decoction. I'm sure I'll give LODO a go in a year or two when I want to try something new.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I don't disagree. I guess I distinguish between:

1. Reproducibility: Does my beer taste the same every time I brew the same recipe?
2. Replicability: Can I brew the same beer as Hoffbrau serves me in Munich? (Or can AB-InBev brew the same Bud Light in Newark, NJ as they do in St Louis, MO).
3. Stability: Will the beer taste exactly the same six months from packaging?

Personally, I care a lot about 1. To me, that's the sign of a good brewer, home or pro. I don't care about 2 or 3, as long as my beer tastes good when I drink it.

The big brewers care about all of the above.

I agree, being able to reproduce a beer, having it taste the same is not an easy task. That is why when we took the VIP tour of the Coors Brewery we saw men in white lab coats huddled over microscopes, in a separate glass enclosed room. I am not making this up!

 

[duelerx]

As a homebrewer it really depends, you can brew great beers without mitigation of HSA but if you want to reach that flavor profile and stability of a Weihenstephan or Sierra Nevada that's were hacks as LODO you could.

Great Sierra Nevada confirms it, as the says goes, Sierra Nevada beers have the consistensty of a Weihenstephan and the flavor of a Sierra Nevada.

 

[Bilsch]

Absolutely, my discussion of TPO was not to imply that HSA does not have impact on flavors. Things like oxidation of fatty acids in the malt will happen regardless of TPO, if you let it.

My apologies for the optics of my post. I was mostly using yours a springboard to try and make it perfectly clear the differences in cold side oxidation and HSA. You strike me as a very knowledgeable brewer who already well understands all these concepts and needs no extra help from the lodo punks!

I bet your beers are better then the German imports coming in these days with the possible exception of Tannenzapfel (6mo bbd) and Wernesgrüner in cans. If I could consistently get fresh German and Czech beers here I'd never brew again.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

My apologies for the optics of my post. I was mostly using yours a springboard to try and make it perfectly clear the differences in cold side oxidation and HSA. You strike me as a very knowledgeable brewer who already well understands all these concepts and needs no extra help from the lodo punks!

I bet your beers are better then the German imports coming in these days with the possible exception of Tannenzapfel (6mo bbd) and Wernesgrüner in cans. If I could consistently get fresh German and Czech beers here I'd never brew again.

Yesterday we popped open a 16 oz can of Radeberger, a well known (and popular) German Pilsner. Along side we poured a glass of Classic German Pilsner, that we recently brewed.

While the Radeberger was good, ours had much better flavor overall. More malt and hops in the aroma, and taste. Of course, ours was much fresher, so that may have an impact.

I would say that most anyone can brew this style of beer, and have it equal to or perhaps better than the German examples on the local store shelf.

A Classic German Pils is a fragile beer, and this makes the style more challenging to replicate.

 

[McMullan]

A Classic German Pils is a fragile beer, and this makes the style more challenging to replicate.

Therefore more challenging to ship. A fresh beer with few beer miles is key to a good German beer. Just as it is with a good traditional English beer. Or any other good beer. Liquid breads, essentially. Best served fresh and local. We can't get fresher and more local than home brew.

 

[duelerx]

Therefore more challenging to ship. A fresh beer with few beer miles is key to a good German beer. Just as it is with a good traditional English beer. Or any other good beer. Liquid breads, essentially. Best served fresh and local. We can't get fresher and more local than home brew.

We can't get fresher and more local than home brew but without the delicate malt flavors on a lager.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I don't remember it being fruitful, only my serious doubt about your connection in Weihenstephan.
Anyway now we know for sure what the real answer is.

So it appears the information I was given two years ago wasn't wrong after all... below is a response I got from Mr. Tobias Zollo himself (the Weihenstephan head brewer from the videointerview).
The following is deepl-translated from German (with just a few adjustments here and there by me...I swear I didn't change the sense of his words ):

"Hello!
Sorry for the late reply!

So, oxygen is fundamentally bad in the brewing process. Fatty acids can oxidize in the brewhouse, which can lead to poor flavor stability. Also to a more edgy, bitter taste.
On the cold side, the beer oxidizes and you immediately get an aged taste in the beer.
Only the wort for pitching and the yeast for propagation need oxygen.
At Weihenstephan, we only degas the water for the cold side. In the brewhouse, we use low-oxygen, softened brewing water - but not completely deaerated. Only partially due to the softening process.
In the brewhouse, we try to keep oxygen pickup as low as possible by gentle stirring, mashing out from the bottom, and so on.
So both are right somewhere. You and the Crafties. Basically it comes down to this: oxygen is the enemy of beer.
Greetings,
Tobias"

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I wonder what their softening process is. It wouldn't be a traditional Sodium based softener. And surely they aren't boiling all of their brewing water to remove Carbonate (although that would explain why it'd be partially low Oxygen).

 

[monkeymath]

I wonder what their softening process is. It wouldn't be a traditional Sodium based softener. And surely they aren't boiling all of their brewing water to remove Carbonate (although that would explain why it'd be partially low Oxygen).

I have no insight whatsoever into the process at Weihenstephan, but I assume they mean lime softening?
Due to the Vorläufiges Biergesetz they cannot "add" anything to the brewing liquor, but you may introduce something which reacts with the minerals present in your water and you may *remove* stuff...

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I have no insight whatsoever into the process at Weihenstephan, but I assume they mean lime softening?
Due to the Vorläufiges Biergesetz they cannot "add" anything to the brewing liquor, but you may introduce something which reacts with the minerals present in your water and you may *remove* stuff...

In that videointerview he mentioned explicitly that they first remove nearly all hardness and alkalinity from the water (by which exact process I think he does not explain), and then they add back just what they need, in the right quantity for the given beer style. He mentioned using mostly CaCl2 for that. So the law must somehow allow them to add at least some brewing salts to their water?

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Want soft water? Use RO water. That is easy!

 

[Spivey24]

At Weihenstephan, we only degas the water for the cold side.

What does this mean? What water on the cold side? I know some breweries do stronger mashes and makeup water. Maybe that.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

What does this mean? What water on the cold side? I know some breweries do stronger mashes and makeup water. Maybe that.

No, It's the water they use e.g. for flushing lines before transferring beer from one vessel to another, and the water they use in the filtration and packaging processes. This also he mentions in that interview, just for reference.
I really do not think Weihenstephan brews high gravity and then dilutes (and I'm not even sure if in Germany breweries are allowed to do that?)