Temperature for Transferring Carbonated Lager to Serving Keg?

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Clint Yeastwood

Clint Yeastwood

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I've never kegged a carbonated beer before. My pressure-fermented lager is at 1.013 today, so I feel like it's time to go for it. The pressure is around 15 psi.

Question: how cold should I get it before I move it? Seems to me it should be cold as possible without freezing, to tame the bubbles to whatever degree possible.

Moving this thing under pressure is going to be a real science project. I got information on doing it. Hoping for the best.
 
When you look at the carb chart and find the volume at your current pressure and temp, you can pretty much follow the volume diagonally across the chart to see how much of a pressure drop you'll get as the temp decreases.. it may be optional, but personally I'd put the gas on to keep the volume level the same and please: Make sure to either use a spunding valve on the recieving keg, or do a closed loop return to your fermenter to keep the back-pressure up and keep foam down... just relying on the PRV on a corny can cause foaming in the lines.
Since this is your first time doing this kind of transfer and I know you love sharing your experiences as much as we love reading them, if it's not too inconvenient, maybe take some pics in case you run in to problems.
:bigmug:
 
Broken Crow said:
When you look at the carb chart and find the volume at your current pressure and temp, you can pretty much follow the volume diagonally across the chart to see how much of a pressure drop you'll get as the temp decreases.. it may be optional, but personally I'd put the gas on to keep the volume level the same and please: Make sure to either use a spunding valve on the recieving keg, or do a closed loop return to your fermenter to keep the back-pressure up and keep foam down... just relying on the PRV on a corny can cause foaming in the lines.
Since this is your first time doing this kind of transfer and I know you love sharing your experiences as much as we love reading them, if it's not too inconvenient, maybe take some pics in case you run in to problems.
:bigmug:
Click to expand...

I appreciate the advice about the valve. I was wondering what to do, and then I remembered I didn't need the spunding valve for fermentation any more, so I could use it on the other keg, as you say.

I don't know if I should post photos. I don't want the forum to see my belongings floating in the garage on a sea of beer foam.
 
Oh... The other part I forgot; Go as slowly as you can tolerate, and then go a bit slower. I'm still working out the timing issue myself, but just a little too fast can start a self-perpetuating foaming cycle.
Tomorrow or Wednesday, I'll be doing a similar transfer of cider from a Sankey to cornys.. I've been using a spunding valve and not worrying about the lost CO2, but I've repeatedly done it too fast, even momentarily, and then found myself waiting (once overnight) for the equilibrium to re-establish so I can continue without half of it turned to foam...Tomorrow I'll be doing a closed loop with gravity and being patient.
 
Would cranking up the pressure during transfer reduce the foam?

My beer is at 15, so I could put the valve at 25 and push with the tank.
 
Ideally, you'll have a minimum differential between the fermenter and recieving keg...how much it foams depends on how carbonated it is and how great that differential is... It's a balancing act with a spunding valve, which seems to be a necessity if the fermenter and keg are at the same level and beer must be pushed... If you do a closed-loop with gravity, you'll get equilibriulm between the two essentially siphoning it downward while the gas return line maintains equal pressure in both vessels. Are you limited to have both at the same level, or can you elevate the fermenter relative the keg?
 
If you're using your spunding valve to regulate back-pressure and fill rate, pushed by tank supplied CO2, then start with the spunding valve closed and open it very slowly, ideally just unitl it starts flowing from the fermenter to the keg and don't get impatient even if it seems to have stopped. If you are able to have your fermenter at a level fully above the fill-level of your keg, then connecting the gas-out of the keg to the gas-in of your fermenter will maintain equilibrium and minimize foaming more efficiently than riding the spunding valve, and a siphon can be initiated with a very light pull of the PRV which you release the moment the beer is flowing down.
[Sorry if my descriptions and language are lacking...brain damage.... I was hoping someone else with a working brain might post a properly detailed description, perhaps with pics. No good for you this time around, but I'll try and take pics of the process next time I do it.]
 
Clint Yeastwood said:
I can put the fermenter and keg on whatever levels I want, but the beer level will obviously change as the beer moves.
Click to expand...
Today or tomorrow I'll be transferring my first beer fermented under pressure. I fermented in a corny and will be transferring to a fermentation-purged serving keg that had a spunding valve attached, set at 10psi. I plan to set the ferm keg on top of my keezer and the serving keg below it. Not sure yet if I'll do a closed transfer or use the spunding valve.
 
Good advice above. Just try to maintain pressure as close as possible with a slight lower pressure in the receiving keg. Even if you keep Co2 pressure from a tank on your fermenter keep your receiving keg positioned lower than your fermenter. This will ensure gravity feed and minimal foaming. Go slowly, very very slowly and all will be well.
 
Yes, I am a fan of the gravity approach. No need to pump up any gas pressure, just equalize first then slightly lower the receiving keg to start the siphon. If your beer is cold from a cold crash, you will see the condensation line on the outside of the keg as the level rises.
 
I got it done.

I really didn't have any problems. I accidentally shot CO2 into the All Rounder before adjusting the regulator, but that was about it.

I set the regulator at 15 and the spunding valve at around 12.5. Took forever to move the beer. I guess half an hour from the time movement started. It started moving before I knew what was happening.

Guess I lost a quart of beer, but I didn't feel like struggling to pump yeast into the keg.

02 14 23 first pressure beer transfer entire setup small.jpg


02 14 23 first pressure beer transfer condensation on keg small.jpg


I am not sure why people have problems with this. I guess the problem is the information on the web. It's not all that clear. You really have to sit down and think about all the problems that can occur.

Now my big problem is a lack of usable faucets. I have been waiting forever for push fittings for two of my shanks. I may end up dispensing one beer with a picnic faucet.
 
Glad it went well. I agree, it is very simple once you have done it once or twice. I will be making a video sometime soon when I get some time.

What is your tubing diameter? I am about to build a new transfer tube with some larger diameter EVA rather than the 4mm that I have now. That should speed it up. But since it is very predictable, I feel comfortable walking away while it is transferring.
 
Good job getting it transferred. Now you know. And you should wait about 24 hours after adding gelatin before drinking it. Oh well, you'll learn the answer to that question too but I don't think it's anything to worry about. I would definitely limit how much of that batch you drink before tomorrow.
 
Thanks for the help.

I dumped some gelatin in it, so we'll see what happens.

I started chilling this stuff to 35 yesterday, but I think it was warmer than that when I moved it. I'm letting it get down to the keezer's temperature now.
 
Yeah, I'm really glad I did it this way. I have to have a varied inventory, or else I'll be emptying one keg after another and never developing any kind of variety.

I feel like I should make my heavy wheaty Belgiany ale this week.
 
May as well admit I drank a glass.

I have to leave it alone and let it grow up. Fortunately, more grain for stout and a different lager arrive tomorrow.
 
fwiw, I use vinyl tubing that's large enough to fit tight to my 3/8" OD ss racking canes and that I can thread a 1/4" MFL QD into. While it doesn't change the orifice size in the QD stem (which is quite small) the tubing ID is so large as to provide nearly no resistance when racking to kegs, for a net win wrt speed...

Cheers!
 
RE gelatin, I followed directions I found somewhere. I heated it up and put it in the keg after I filled it. It had already been closed for a while.
 
That looks interesting, but the amount of air exposed to the beer during what I did seems extremely small. The headspace is small and full of CO2, and the lid is only off for a few seconds. Then you can blow in more CO2 to reduce the O2 concentration in the keg.

Is there some reason people don't shoot gelatin into fermenters as they do transfers? Seems easier. Pop the airlock off a bucket or open a little screw cap on an All Rounder; shoot gelatin into the hole. Close everything back up.

I'm going to be using buckets for most beers. I don't know what to do about oxygen, if I decide to do anything. I could put a post on a bucket lid and push CO2 in slowly while it drains into the keg, but I would still have an open keg and a length of tubing going through the mouth. I guess it's possible to rig up a disconnect on the keg side and a hose clamp to keep the tube from blowing off the bucket spigot.

I once left a heavy ale in a keg for months and months. It only got better. Back then, I just ran a tube from the bucket to the bottom of the keg, with the lid off both. It makes me wonder how much oxygen has to be in there before it becomes a problem.
 
Thanks for the tip.

I guess I could put a spigot in the bucket lid instead of using a fancy post for gas. I could put a disconnect on the other end for the keg. Now that I think about it, a spigot in the lid would make it easier to put in a blowoff tube or add gelatin to the fermenter.
 
Clint Yeastwood said:
Thanks for the tip.

I guess I could put a spigot in the bucket lid instead of using a fancy post for gas. I could put a disconnect on the other end for the keg. Now that I think about it, a spigot in the lid would make it easier to put in a blowoff tube or add gelatin to the fermenter.
Click to expand...
I did exactly that for a while with my Speidel fermenter.
 
Clint Yeastwood said:
I guess I could put a spigot in the bucket lid
Click to expand...
Never thought of that, although I have used a barbed valve from time to time. Mostly I just push a barbed connector through the grommet in the bucket lid. The blow-off tube is in two pieces with a QD in the middle. Let's me put whatever I need in between (krausen catcher, cold crash guardian, etc) at any given time.
 
I had another cute idea today. Band-aid instead of airlock. It's sterile and lets air pass. Easy to put on and take off. Wouldn't give you a barrier to incoming air, but not everyone thinks that's important.
 
Clint Yeastwood said:
That looks interesting, but the amount of air exposed to the beer during what I did seems extremely small. The headspace is small and full of CO2, and the lid is only off for a few seconds. Then you can blow in more CO2 to reduce the O2 concentration in the keg.

Is there some reason people don't shoot gelatin into fermenters as they do transfers? Seems easier. Pop the airlock off a bucket or open a little screw cap on an All Rounder; shoot gelatin into the hole. Close everything back up.

I'm going to be using buckets for most beers. I don't know what to do about oxygen, if I decide to do anything. I could put a post on a bucket lid and push CO2 in slowly while it drains into the keg, but I would still have an open keg and a length of tubing going through the mouth. I guess it's possible to rig up a disconnect on the keg side and a hose clamp to keep the tube from blowing off the bucket spigot.

I once left a heavy ale in a keg for months and months. It only got better. Back then, I just ran a tube from the bucket to the bottom of the keg, with the lid off both. It makes me wonder how much oxygen has to be in there before it becomes a problem.
Click to expand...
Heavily hopped ipa's are most affected by oxygen, so if you don't brew that style then oxygen exposure may be less of an issue. But it's my understanding that oxygen is detrimental to almost every style, just some styles are affected more than others.

I just bought those syringes recently and actually plan to use one later today to add gelatin to my Irish Red Ale. I've added gelatin to this recipe in the past and just opened the keg lid and poured it in, then purged the headspace a few times. In the time it took me to finish the keg I noticed no ill effects doing it this way. But this time it's actually just a test using the syringe method to gain some experience for when I brew a future neipa or a west coast ipa, where limiting oxygen exposure is much more important.

And yes, I've read some people add gelatin directly to the fermenter a couple days prior to transferring to the keg, or even prior to bottling.
 

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