Tart of Darkness

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I brewed this last December, followed the recipe as described. After primary fermentation, about two months in, it was split into two corny kegs and put in a closet that sits in the middle of the house (pretty well controlled temp of about 72-76 year round). It sat there until I added the bourbon barrel chips in July, about 7 months in. I just threw it on the tap, and man... this is an amazing beer. Very strong sour flavor, like tart raspberries, smokey bourbon character... and a bit of a funk that is not in any way overdone. I'm going to have to pull it off the tap if I expect to still have any left before Christmas.
 
Brewed this up last sunday morning as a mini-mash with the MoreBeer kit---super fast brewday. Pitched ECY02 + the last little bit of ECY03. Took off like a rocket!

My question is--do I leave this in the primary for 6 months or rack off of it after 1? Advantages/disadvantages?
 
TriggerFingers said:
Brewed this up last sunday morning as a mini-mash with the MoreBeer kit---super fast brewday. Pitched ECY02 + the last little bit of ECY03. Took off like a rocket!

My question is--do I leave this in the primary for 6 months or rack off of it after 1? Advantages/disadvantages?
Click to expand...

I'd leave it for 6-23 months before moving it.
 
couple questions to those that have brewed this.

what is the anticipated OG of this kit?

I put this into beersmith and is estimating a 24 SRM, that is pretty low for a stout, what are others getting, this is with 450L chocolate and 300L roasted barley
 
humann_brewing said:
couple questions to those that have brewed this.

what is the anticipated OG of this kit?

I put this into beersmith and is estimating a 24 SRM, that is pretty low for a stout, what are others getting, this is with 450L chocolate and 300L roasted barley
Click to expand...

Please read post #3 on page 1 for this info.
 
No, not my first. Did a Sour in January with Bugfarm and after a month, racked to glass where it still sits....

I just thought people racked their sours to long secondaries, not super long primaries....

Hence why I asked...
 
I usually just do an 18-24 month primary. The trub pile is yummy food for the bugz. Either way it doesn't hurt the beer like a non sour. I think commercial folks only primary in steel and rack to barrels out of convenience and to ensure the largest possible yield per barrel as $$$ matter to them. My "barrel" is oak cubes in carboy so it is much less of a concern to me.
 
Depends on what you are after. If you leave it on the yeast cake you'll get a funkier beer(lambics typically sit on the cake), and if you rack it off you'll get a cleaner sour character (Flemish reds are transferred)
 
thanks for the info robotinc...I enjoy funky beers, but I think I am in the camp of preferring cleaner sours....I may rack to a secondary after the new year for a long stay....I'll think about it....
 
FATC1TY said:
I'm brewing up a ToD this weekend as well.

Going to use ECY02 Flemish, and a vial of Yeast Bay Melange to ferment/funk/sour.

Once it's close, I'll toss it in a 4th or 5th use 5 gallon bourbon barrel I have at the house and let it pick up some goodness.

Plan to split the batch, age half with tart cherries and more bourbon barrel aging as well.
Click to expand...

I'm getting hold of some Melange from Yeast Bay in a couple of weeks. Your the first person I've seen on this thread using it. fingers crossed it comes out for you, but I think I know what I'll use this strain/s on now.

On a separate note, I have some rye malt I never ended up using. If I replaced the Oats with this (I realise it won't be a clone, and will contribute some different flavours) Kinda like a sour rye stout. I've got about a lb left. I'm not even sure if anyone is still paying attention to this thread, but hey if someone wants to answer that'd be awesome.
 
I brewed this a year ago this week.... I plan on bottling Thursday with Belgian Strong Ale yeast wlp545, (Do I just mix this in bottling bucket no type of starter?) Whats the normal range for c02 level for this beer? I am assuming 2.5?
 
Pretty sure I have a decently large problem... Took a sample of my beer today. Its stuck at 1.020 guess it was a dumb thing to not take a sample for entire year till now. So not going to bottle anytime soon. Whats my options? Let it age out? add another yeast?

It taste wonderful to me,not as sour as I hoped with the roselare yeast and JP dregs. Medium sour note with Barrel and Malt following.... Id drink it as is, but I know bombs would come.

I wanted to bottle today due I am moving this weekend, now I gotta figure out my options.

*edit Its needs to be noted my OG on this beer was way off when I brewed it... It was 1.074. Would adding something like Bug County Help drop the gravity more? I assumed the JP dreg would really help more than anything else.
 
Cadrian said:
Pretty sure I have a decently large problem... Took a sample of my beer today. Its stuck at 1.020 guess it was a dumb thing to not take a sample for entire year till now. So not going to bottle anytime soon. Whats my options? Let it age out? add another yeast?

It taste wonderful to me,not as sour as I hoped with the roselare yeast and JP dregs. Medium sour note with Barrel and Malt following.... Id drink it as is, but I know bombs would come.

I wanted to bottle today due I am moving this weekend, now I gotta figure out my options.

*edit Its needs to be noted my OG on this beer was way off when I brewed it... It was 1.074. Would adding something like Bug County Help drop the gravity more? I assumed the JP dreg would really help more than anything else.
Click to expand...

do you know why it stuck? Yeast viability??
 
Some folks have carbonated to 2.0 volumes (closer to stout range). others have shot for typical sour beer range (3.5-4). The beer is bottled by The Bruery in thick walled bottles that could withstand high carbonation. I could not find the exact carbonation details floating around the interweb anywhere.... Someone email Tyler King!!!
 
FredTheNuke said:
Some folks have carbonated to 2.0 volumes (closer to stout range). others have shot for typical sour beer range (3.5-4). The beer is bottled by The Bruery in thick walled bottles that could withstand high carbonation. I could not find the exact carbonation details floating around the interweb anywhere.... Someone email Tyler King!!!
Click to expand...

I find high carbonation disruptive to the flavor of dark sour beers. I usually aim for low-2s for anything in the brown-black continuum. They are tricky enough as is with the acidity.
 
Oldsock said:
I find high carbonation disruptive to the flavor of dark sour beers. I usually aim for low-2s for anything in the brown-black continuum. They are tricky enough as is with the acidity.
Click to expand...

Good Info mate.
Hopefully you can answer my question. When it comes to these darker beers, in your recipe on the blog, what sort of microbes did you pitch? (as you said there were existing stuff) was it just bottle dregs?
 
dwntwnbwn said:
Same idea here. You guys pitching the full ecy20 vile into 5 gallons?

To me ToD isn't too funky and ecy20 sounds like that's what it is going to make, funk. But the hope is for a funky stout that could go over some tart black cherries or cacao nibs and oak. We'll see what happens in a year.
Click to expand...

Have you tasted yours yet? We've tried it a few times. Definitely a lot of nice funk going on, but not really all that sour. We're thinking of taking half of it and putting on raspberries and adding the bourbon chips to the rest. Not sure if we will add any bourbon chips to the raspberry half, but probably some plain oak if not.
 
crusader1612 said:
Good Info mate.
Hopefully you can answer my question. When it comes to these darker beers, in your recipe on the blog, what sort of microbes did you pitch? (as you said there were existing stuff) was it just bottle dregs?
Click to expand...

For which beer? This one: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/05/bourbon-barrel-sour-porter-tasting.html ?

In that case we don't know, Whatever took over that bourbon barrel (it was next to a Flemish red wine barrel, and then we pitched loads of dregs). Tastes like a strong Lacto culture (similar to Cascade's). I've given Nick from The Yeast Bay a couple bottles from it, but he hasn't been able to isolate anything useful yet.
 
blanco said:
Have you tasted yours yet? We've tried it a few times. Definitely a lot of nice funk going on, but not really all that sour. We're thinking of taking half of it and putting on raspberries and adding the bourbon chips to the rest. Not sure if we will add any bourbon chips to the raspberry half, but probably some plain oak if not.
Click to expand...

Great thread! Just came across it looking for a dark sour recipe. I have a LaFollie clone that has been going for almost a year now and I used Roeselare. Seems that the consensus is that it doesnt make the beer all that sour. I poured some dregs from a few LaFollie bottles in there a while back but havent tried it yet. I want something with that level of tartness. Anyone suggest a different option than Roeslare? I got the new American Sour book and it mentions adding Peddio/Lacto/Brett to the secondary. Should I go for that on this round? Adding dregs seems to also be a popluar option. :mug:
 
SATXbrew said:
Great thread! Just came across it looking for a dark sour recipe. I have a LaFollie clone that has been going for almost a year now and I used Roeselare. Seems that the consensus is that it doesnt make the beer all that sour. I poured some dregs from a few LaFollie bottles in there a while back but havent tried it yet. I want something with that level of tartness. Anyone suggest a different option than Roeslare? I got the new American Sour book and it mentions adding Peddio/Lacto/Brett to the secondary. Should I go for that on this round? Adding dregs seems to also be a popluar option. :mug:
Click to expand...

Sadly unless they are old corked and caged La Folie's, the dregs don't contain much of interest (the Lips of Faith bombers are flash pasteurized and reyeasted).

Roeselare contains those microbes, just not especially aggressive strains. Dregs, or microbes from East Coast Yeast tend to be better options if you want bigger sourness than the White Labs and Wyeast blends provide.
 
Oldsock said:
For which beer? This one: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/05/bourbon-barrel-sour-porter-tasting.html ?

In that case we don't know, Whatever took over that bourbon barrel (it was next to a Flemish red wine barrel, and then we pitched loads of dregs). Tastes like a strong Lacto culture (similar to Cascade's). I've given Nick from The Yeast Bay a couple bottles from it, but he hasn't been able to isolate anything useful yet.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that one. I was toying with the idea of doing a sour porter, and adding cherries as well. I don't have an oak barrel, but cubes should give me an approximation.
I assume you have no idea what took over the barrel?? Which is a shame, as it make it slightly less easy to re-produce.....
 
crusader1612 said:
Yeah, that one. I was toying with the idea of doing a sour porter, and adding cherries as well. I don't have an oak barrel, but cubes should give me an approximation.
I assume you have no idea what took over the barrel?? Which is a shame, as it make it slightly less easy to re-produce.....
Click to expand...

Sadly there aren't any equivalent commercial strains of Lacto available (as far as I'm aware). What makes whatever this is great for a strong beer is that it is alcohol tolerant, but doesn't thin the beer out. If you can get beers from Cascade Brewing, pitch some of their dregs!
 
What sucks is the local 201 Central store has about a dozen bottles of Cascade (cranberry and Figaro). But those phuckers are $30 and $35 a bottle!
 
FredTheNuke said:
What sucks is the local 201 Central store has about a dozen bottles of Cascade (cranberry and Figaro). But those phuckers are $30 and $35 a bottle!
Click to expand...

I dropped $40 for Noyaux last time I was in San Diego. More than I'd usually spend, but it was such an interesting concept. Very good beer, but didn't get much from the apricot pits.
 
Another quick question: Are people transferring to secondary?

I have read people doing sours in both primary only and transferring to secondary. Once again late on the question as mine has stayed in the primary because I read that Brett cleans up any autolysis from the Sacc. I have it forming a little bit of a pellicle as well at this point so I don't think I should move it now correct?

Thanks
 
Yourrealdad said:
Another quick question: Are people transferring to secondary?

I have read people doing sours in both primary only and transferring to secondary. Once again late on the question as mine has stayed in the primary because I read that Brett cleans up any autolysis from the Sacc. I have it forming a little bit of a pellicle as well at this point so I don't think I should move it now correct?

Thanks
Click to expand...
yes to secondary. i'm generally not a fan of secondaries, but long-term aging is a good reason to use one. not such much for getting the beer off the yeast cake, but to reduce headspace. ferment in a 6.5 gal carboy, then rack to a 5 gal secondary so you can fill it up all the way to the neck.

i wouldn't worry about the pellicle. if the bugs need one in secondary, they'll make another one.
 
So it has been in the primary for three months. What about racking it to secondary in another three months when I am going to put it on oak cubes?

Less moving around of the beer this way. Downsides of keeping it in a not full primary for another 3 months?
 
Yourrealdad said:
So it has been in the primary for three months. What about racking it to secondary in another three months when I am going to put it on oak cubes?

Less moving around of the beer this way. Downsides of keeping it in a not full primary for another 3 months?
Click to expand...

for my mind, not many. I'm leaving mine for a full year. plenty to eat, plkenty to do, and the pellicle will form to protect the beer from some oxygen.
 
your primary fermentation will blanket the beer with carbon dioxide as long as you have a good stopper an airlock. So all that headspace is not really a risk.
 
Fred I just went through some of your pics (great set ups btw, I am jealous) and noticed for your TOD clone that you put it on oak cubes a month after primary. How long then did you let them sit on the oak?

I thought it seemed that most people were putting it on oak after 6-9months and then letting it sit another 3-6 months on the oak.

Also have you noticed any benefit from putting the real TOD dregs in after 4 months? I can get TOD and if you think it is worth it, open up the carboy and pour them (good excuse to spend the dough on the beer too, right?).

Thanks again
 
I attempted to simulate a true used bourbon barrel. To do this I boiled my brand new medium plus oak cubes to weaken them and remove the harsh tanins of new oak - this 10 minutes of boiling essentially turns them into used oak barrels. Then I soaked them in bourbon for 6 months in my garage (which has temperature fluctuations). This is what I added to my ToD clone.

Some cube math:

57 square inches of barrel surface area per gallon of beer averaged with a standard 53 gallon wine barrel. The oak cubes I have are 1/2x1/2x3/8 inches. This equates to 1.25 square inches per cube. That would be 45.6 cubes per gallon of beer. 46 cubes weigh 1.20 oz dry. I do not yet have an exact weight wet. This math would put somewhere around 7 oz of cubes into a standard 6 gallon batch. Although this would equal the barrel I have yet to try that much. Oldsock recommended 0.15 oz per gallon weighed dry in his book.

Based on all of this I only added 1.5 oz wet weighed of cubes - probably right around the 0.15oz dry that Oldsock recommends. If you compare this to true barrel oaking it comes up WAY short. I don't yet have an answer to that issue. In one of my soon to be oaked sours I will add the full 1.20 oz dry of oak cubes per gallon to see how it comes out. We will either find out that my 10 minutes of boiling isn't long enough or maybe it will be spot on.

My goal was to simulate a true barrel aged beer. By this I mean The Bruery has their Tart of Darkness in the barrel for 12-18 months and it is not overoaked - so if we can get our cubes to be equivalent in strength we can leave them in the carboy for 12-18 months and have the same end result. The alternative is to use stronger cubes for less time - but that means constantly sampling your beer - something I do not like to do. As a matter of fact I have not yet touched the ToD carboy I put the dregs into - I will probably taste it 6 months from now (middle summer) with the expectation that it is ready to be bottled at that point.

My method is not as efficient on oak cubes as it could be but I'm not after saving money - I am after a more authentic ToD on a smaller scale.
 
FredTheNuke said:
I attempted to simulate a true used bourbon barrel. To do this I boiled my brand new medium plus oak cubes to weaken them and remove the harsh tanins of new oak - this 10 minutes of boiling essentially turns them into used oak barrels. Then I soaked them in bourbon for 6 months in my garage (which has temperature fluctuations). This is what I added to my ToD clone.



Some cube math:



57 square inches of barrel surface area per gallon of beer averaged with a standard 53 gallon wine barrel. The oak cubes I have are 1/2x1/2x3/8 inches. This equates to 1.25 square inches per cube. That would be 45.6 cubes per gallon of beer. 46 cubes weigh 1.20 oz dry. I do not yet have an exact weight wet. This math would put somewhere around 7 oz of cubes into a standard 6 gallon batch. Although this would equal the barrel I have yet to try that much. Oldsock recommended 0.15 oz per gallon weighed dry in his book.



Based on all of this I only added 1.5 oz wet weighed of cubes - probably right around the 0.15oz dry that Oldsock recommends. If you compare this to true barrel oaking it comes up WAY short. I don't yet have an answer to that issue. In one of my soon to be oaked sours I will add the full 1.20 oz dry of oak cubes per gallon to see how it comes out. We will either find out that my 10 minutes of boiling isn't long enough or maybe it will be spot on.



My goal was to simulate a true barrel aged beer. By this I mean The Bruery has their Tart of Darkness in the barrel for 12-18 months and it is not overoaked - so if we can get our cubes to be equivalent in strength we can leave them in the carboy for 12-18 months and have the same end result. The alternative is to use stronger cubes for less time - but that means constantly sampling your beer - something I do not like to do. As a matter of fact I have not yet touched the ToD carboy I put the dregs into - I will probably taste it 6 months from now (middle summer) with the expectation that it is ready to be bottled at that point.



My method is not as efficient on oak cubes as it could be but I'm not after saving money - I am after a more authentic ToD on a smaller scale.
Click to expand...


Bruery uses the fresh oak barrels for Black Tuesday... Then tart of darkness... Not sure how many uses between both
 
Exactly - they knock down the oak just like in wine production and bourbon production barrels that later become beer barrels. So my method is to reduce the cubes to the equivalent strength and then use them for the beer with the same contact time (usually full length 18 months after primary fermentation) as the commercial sours.
 
I bottled my first attempt at a Tart of Darkness-like beer last September. I only varied from the standard recipe here by adding dried sour cherries. After ten months fermenting and bulk aging, then another five months of bottle conditioning, it's excellent. The sourness is quite distinct, but it's still balanced.

Rather than waste that nice thick layer of yeast, bugs and cherries at the bottom of my carboy last September, I brewed a Belgian dark strong and added it. Today, I racked that over to secondary (a carboy issue rather than my standard practice), topped it off with a nice Cab-forward meritage that I'd been saving and added 1.5 oz of oak. The sample I pulled to test (at 1.015 today) was delicious. At this point, it's less sour, more brett than its daddy was at the same time. Complex, leathery funk with a mellowed cherry note. I'm planning on checking it again at the end of the summer.

I was a little sad when I dumped the dregs. Still, they've served my well for two batches. Time to try something different.
 

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