Tart flavor from acid malt?

[pretzelb]

I am trying to make adjustments to my mash pH and I started with using acid malt for the first time in an Irish Red recipe. I just tried this from the keg and it tastes tart to me. Could this be from the acid malt? It was just 3% of the grain bill but I can't think of anything else.

11 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 88.1 %
6.1 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.0 %
6.1 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.0 %
6.1 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.0 %
6.1 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.0 %

 

[giraffe]

At 3% i cant taste it, but im surprised you need that much with the roasted barley and all that crystal. What mash ph were you aiming for? 5.4? How hard is your water?

 

[Moose_MI]

At 3% i cant taste it, but im surprised you need that much with the roasted barley and all that crystal. What mash ph were you aiming for? 5.4? How hard is your water?

I agree with this ^^^^. Really doubt that you could pick up flavor at 3% in an Irish Red and also curious you needed that much.

I've had 2 beers unintentionally sour on me and they have a wonderful tart/sour flavor....any chance you got a bug? Notice any over carbing in it?

 

[JonM]

I bet you're just tasting the sludgy stuff at the bottom of the keg or just young beer. I bet whatever tartness you picked up will go away once the sediment is drawn off and the beer ages a bit more. All is well, I bet.

 

[pretzelb]

At 3% i cant taste it, but im surprised you need that much with the roasted barley and all that crystal. What mash ph were you aiming for? 5.4? How hard is your water?

I'm still struggling trying to figure out how to use Brun Water but attached is my water report and how I think the pH worked out after entering everything.

 

[pretzelb]

I agree with this ^^^^. Really doubt that you could pick up flavor at 3% in an Irish Red and also curious you needed that much.

I've had 2 beers unintentionally sour on me and they have a wonderful tart/sour flavor....any chance you got a bug? Notice any over carbing in it?

It could be a bug but it would be the first. I did let this age a good 4-5 weeks and it is a taste I'm not used to with this recipe. This batch did have more sediment than normal but that should be all gone from the keg by now.

I will give it more time. I can call it "Little Irish Tart" and pretend I planned it.

 

[giraffe]

Ah well if thats your screenshot, that makes more sense, as its showing 3oz, or 1.6%. If thats what you added that should be fine, and you certainly wont taste it. But it looks like you added twice as much. Which may have given you a mash ph around 5.2 (which isnt tragic, but will definitely effect beer flavor)

 

[mdennytoo]

Total alkalinity in the 90s and total hardness of 122 means you don't need acid malt for this recipe. The phosphates in the dark malts and caramel malts will drop your pH just fine. If anything consider a little chalk. The calculator said you would come up with a pH of 5.5 or so, but you probably converted starch in the high 4s in reality. Fermentation dropped it some more. Did you check with pH strips or a meter? Acid malt would be needed for a pilsner in this moderately hard water. I have water in the 150s and all my light colored beers taste hacked and not right. This water is best for a beer 7 -14 SRM in color.

Just for trial, drop a fruit flavored tums in your next glass and see if it tastes better. If it does, experiment with a little food grade chalk from the Local Home Brew Store.

 

[Gavin C]

No. Acid malt is not going to impart a tart flavor in these amounts.

Also chalk is totally unsuitable for brewing. It takes days to dissolve and react. Better simpler options exist. If you feel the need to add it (I can't think of a useful reason unless dead set on a geographical profile) here is how to do it. Using chalk is also listed as a common error in the common water error thread.

TL, DR

Acid malt OK in these amounts.

Don't use chalk as a previous poster has mentioned.

 

[ba-brewer]

Some yeast can produce some tartness, I see people comment about with S-04. Which yeast did you use?

 

[EJay]

I'll chime in and say it CAN cause tart flavors. I used 2% for several batches based on the primer in the stickies, and in my case, made the beer nearly undrinkable, so I've stopped using it routinely until I get setup better (with, say, a ph meter).

 

[mdennytoo]

No. Acid malt is not going to impart a tart flavor in these amounts.

Also chalk is totally unsuitable for brewing. It takes days to dissolve and react. Better simpler options exist. If you feel the need to add it (I can't think of a useful reason unless dead set on a geographical profile) here is how to do it. Using chalk is also listed as a common error in the common water error thread.

TL, DR

Acid malt OK in these amounts.

Don't use chalk as a previous poster has mentioned.

I like these two links. I agree, Pretzelb doesn't need to use chalk, I just wanted to point out that it is the other way around. Pretzelb doesn't need acids, if he/ she needed anything it would be carbonates. Pretzelb's recipe without the acid malt is going to get to 5.2 anyway, maybe lower. Pretzelb has low - moderately hard water and all those color malts in his grist are going to knock the carbonates down without having to add acids. (Chalk isn't the best way to do that, but it has been far easier for me to dissolve a little in the mash to keep it from going too low when I am getting conversion with a lot of roasted barley.)

 

[pretzelb]

Some yeast can produce some tartness, I see people comment about with S-04. Which yeast did you use?

I do believe I tried S-04 this time instead of S-05 like I normally do.

 

[m00ps]

I do believe I tried S-04 this time instead of S-05 like I normally do.

I would definitely guess its either yeast related or something with your water chemistry and the way it interacts with the malts. I stopped using s-04 after I diagnosed a number of weird beers due to it. This was after reading a post on bear flavored regarding similar experiences. I never used it again

Youd need a very large amount of acid malt to taste it. Like 20% or more

 

[mdennytoo]

I also agree with m00ps. I have used S04 before because I was attracted to the fact that it precipitates out so fast. I decided after a few that it was a little tart. I think it is acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is one of the last steps in producing alcohol- like it isn't done yet. The yeast drops before the beer is really finished. Higher temps might help that. Rousing the yeast for the last 4-6 days may be an option as well. Another yeast in the secondary, like one for bottling (CBC-1), might finish the acetaldehyde off. But that recipe doesn't need any acids.

 

[pretzelb]

I also agree with m00ps. I have used S04 before because I was attracted to the fact that it precipitates out so fast. I decided after a few that it was a little tart. I think it is acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is one of the last steps in producing alcohol- like it isn't done yet. The yeast drops before the beer is really finished. Higher temps might help that. Rousing the yeast for the last 4-6 days may be an option as well. Another yeast in the secondary, like one for bottling (CBC-1), might finish the acetaldehyde off. But that recipe doesn't need any acids.

I guess I was lucky when I've used S04 before. The final gravity was what I expected and it should have been finished cleaning after 4 weeks but I bet if I had racked to a secondary for a week it would have "cleaned up". Oh well.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I guess I was lucky when I've used S04 before. The final gravity was what I expected and it should have been finished cleaning after 4 weeks but I bet if I had racked to a secondary for a week it would have "cleaned up". Oh well.

From my experience with S04 there's probably nothing you could've done to clean it up. I had a couple bottles of a dry rye stout that are pushing 3 years and they still have this faint tart character (no acidulated malt was used). Its not unenjoyable, just there.

 

[Bilsch]

Certain yeast strains caused caused some of my beers to be 'more tart" then I expected. In my case very low temporary and permanent hardness water (read lower buffering potential), in smaller beers, mashed in less time, in conjunction with even a small amounts of acid malt aggravated the situation. At least the perceived flavor of the situation.
Some brewers insist you cant taste acid malt in 2 to 3%, and I think that's true in most cases but not all.