Tart and Funky Saison

[Ted123]

Would love to re-kindle this thread . . . but we'll see what happens.

Highly intrigued, because I've been trying to lightly tart-up my Saisons with no success, as the Brett keeps dominating and overshadowing everything else. My most recent attempt was 3726 pitched with a Brevis starter as well as a healthy starter of Cellarman dregs (from SARA) . . . Cellarman is a gorgeous beer with just the right amount of Lacto-tartness . . . but the dreg-stepping-up seemed to make the Brett come into dominance, and it thus produced an overly funky quality in my Saison.
I'm wondering how these brewers hold the Brett in check, and get the tart to shine?
Any thoughts on which bottles I should seek out, to culture "hop tolerant strains of Lacto" from?
Is the only other solution to do a longer (6 mos?) saison ferment, giving the lactic qualities more time to show up? (6 mos in primary, rack to purged secondary and dry-hop)?
thanks--ted

 

[Gus_13]

Would love to re-kindle this thread . . . but we'll see what happens.

Highly intrigued, because I've been trying to lightly tart-up my Saisons with no success, as the Brett keeps dominating and overshadowing everything else. My most recent attempt was 3726 pitched with a Brevis starter as well as a healthy starter of Cellarman dregs (from SARA) . . . Cellarman is a gorgeous beer with just the right amount of Lacto-tartness . . . but the dreg-stepping-up seemed to make the Brett come into dominance, and it thus produced an overly funky quality in my Saison.
I'm wondering how these brewers hold the Brett in check, and get the tart to shine?
Any thoughts on which bottles I should seek out, to culture "hop tolerant strains of Lacto" from?
Is the only other solution to do a longer (6 mos?) saison ferment, giving the lactic qualities more time to show up? (6 mos in primary, rack to purged secondary and dry-hop)?
thanks--ted

I've had great success with Jester King and Hill Farmstead dregs for a more hop tolerant LAB.

Also I've been using a Biere de Coupage process to great success. I brew a beer and sour it with a mixed culture of dregs and commercial cultures. Sometimes a combination of both. Then I brew my hoppy Saison and blend in a portion of the sour beer. It really adds a ton of complexity. This is how Jester King produces Das Wunderkind and some of the Dichotomous beers.

 

[Ted123]

Thanks, Gus 1 2 3 . . .
If only I could get HF or JK here in Northern California . . . they don't distribute to my neck of the woods. Maybe I need to step it up and learn how to do trading (which sounds a bit complex), cause then could offer SARA or Russian River.
Love the Coupage idea . . . gonna need to brew two different batches, that'll eventually turn into one Saison!
thanks--t

 

[Gus_13]

Thanks, Gus 1 2 3 . . .
If only I could get HF or JK here in Northern California . . . they don't distribute to my neck of the woods. Maybe I need to step it up and learn how to do trading (which sounds a bit complex), cause then could offer SARA or Russian River.
Love the Coupage idea . . . gonna need to brew two different batches, that'll eventually turn into one Saison!
thanks--t

Ooohhh I'd be willing to make a trade!

Also I believe Bernice has both HF and JK cultures in it. You make try to use those. I know Tim did say that he tossed HF dregs in his house culture. I want to say he did with JK too.

 

[505-Brewer]

I've had great success with Jester King and Hill Farmstead dregs for a more hop tolerant LAB.

Also I've been using a Biere de Coupage process to great success. I brew a beer and sour it with a mixed culture of dregs and commercial cultures. Sometimes a combination of both. Then I brew my hoppy Saison and blend in a portion of the sour beer. It really adds a ton of complexity. This is how Jester King produces Das Wunderkind and some of the Dichotomous beers.

There was a talk/demo on this approach at NHC. I cant recall if it was the guy from Council brewing or Toolbox brewing ( I want to say it was Peter Perrione ??? From Council?). They had a saison and had the audience blend in an acid beer at ~ 10:1, 5:1 and 3:1 to create rustic saison, tart saison and sour saison. Seemed like a god approach.

 

[kaz4121]

There was a talk/demo on this approach at NHC. I cant recall if it was the guy from Council brewing or Toolbox brewing ( I want to say it was Peter Perrione ??? From Council?). They had a saison and gad ghd audience blend in an acid beer at ~ 10:1, 5:1 and 3:1 to create rustic saison, tart saison and sour saison. Seemed like a god approach.

It was Jeffrey Crane of Council Brewing. They use this method to make their Beatitude series.

 

[505-Brewer]

It was Jeffrey Crane of Council Brewing. They use this method to make their Beatitude series.

Thank you for the correction! It was a good seminar.

 

[tagz]

Can you bottle when you blend or do you have to give it time to knock the last few points of the saison down?

 

[505-Brewer]

Can you bottle when you blend or do you have to give it time to knock the last few points of the saison down?

From what I recall a fully fermented Saison (typically dry) is blended w a very sour and also highly attenuated (made w/out pedio to avoid any possible ropiness issues). So its ready to bottle/keg right away. For bottle conditioning you probably want to consider re-yeasting for a healthy ferment. If your sour had pedio you would want to be aware it could go through the sick phase again in which case you would need to wait it out.

 

[Gus_13]

Can you bottle when you blend or do you have to give it time to knock the last few points of the saison down?

This totally depends on your fermentation. My typical clean fresh saison finishes around 1.002 every time. I usually blend in the mature portion in a ration of .5-1 gallon to 4-5 gallons of fresh beer. I aim for 2.8 to 3.2 vols when I bottle and if there is any more drop I will be where I like my saison to be carbonated. That said, if your fresh beer is higher in gravity, a few weeks of them sitting wouldn't be a bad idea. I just mash, ferment and build my recipe so that it will finish really dry.

 

[Gus_13]

Blog post from Browne and Bitter about Biere de Coupage that may interest some of you folks.

http://www.browneandbitter.com/2016/02/biere-de-coupage-some-background-and.html?m=1

Also my last entry had some Biere de Coupage action if you'd like to take a look. Working on another post soon.


http://thefarmhouseobsession.blogspot.com/2016/02/tasting-notes-of-kathleen-round-2.html?m=1

 

[tagz]

From what I recall a fully fermented Saison (typically dry) is blended w a very sour and also highly attenuated (made w/out pedio to avoid any possible ropiness issues). So its ready to bottle/keg right away. For bottle conditioning you probably want to consider re-yeasting for a healthy ferment. If your sour had pedio you would want to be aware it could go through the sick phase again in which case you would need to wait it out.

Oh it's a LAB sour. Just read the last few posts and thought it was a pedio sour. Gotcha.

 

[sweetcell]

Oh it's a LAB sour. Just read the last few posts and thought it was a pedio sour. Gotcha.

but pedio is a LAB...

 

[505-Brewer]

but pedio is a LAB...

Yes Lactic Acid producing Bacteria. So its a lacto only sour not a LAB only sour. At least thats how I understand it.

 

[Gus_13]

Yes Lactic Acid producing Bacteria. So its a lacto only sour not a LAB only sour. At least thats how I understand it.

but pedio is a LAB...

Oh it's a LAB sour. Just read the last few posts and thought it was a pedio sour. Gotcha.

Pedio is definitely present in some blends. Some contain lambic beer. I don't know about theirs in particular but there are definitely commercial examples of fresh saison blended with beers containing Pedio. I have personally done this as well.

 

[tagz]

Oh sorry. I assumed LAB referred to lactobacillus.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1456402979.397216.jpg

 

[505-Brewer]

Pedio is definitely present in some blends. Some contain lambic beer. I don't know about theirs in particular but there are definitely commercial examples of fresh saison blended with beers containing Pedio. I have personally done this as well.

I think the confusion/discussion was simply what the definition of LAB was. Yes pedio could certainly also be used in saisons or other sour beers. I was referring to what I thought Council brewing was doing with their approach but I could be wrong. There was another sour talk at NHC from Toolbox brewing where they stressed not using pedio so the acid beer could be made more quickly and avoid the ropey issue in general. But to be honest the two talks have run together in my feeble mind so I cant recall which was which. They should be on the AHA website somewhere.

I'll be blending a 1 year old sacc/brett/lacto/pedio beer w s lacto/sacc beer this weekend so it'll be interesting to see how that goes. Plan is to dry hop for a week then keg and keep cold.

 

[Gus_13]

I think the confusion/discussion was simply what the definition of LAB was. Yes pedio could certainly also be used in saisons or other sour beers. I was referring to what I thought Council brewing was doing with their approach but I could be wrong. There was another sour talk at NHC from Toolbox brewing where they stressed not using pedio so the acid beer could be made more quickly and avoid the ropey issue in general. But to be honest the two talks have run together in my feeble mind so I cant recall which was which. They should be on the AHA website somewhere.

I'll be blending a 1 year old sacc/brett/lacto/pedio beer w s lacto/sacc beer this weekend so it'll be interesting to see how that goes. Plan is to dry hop for a week then keg and keep cold.

Ahhh my bad! Yeah council may not be doing anything with Pedio you could be right.

I just brewed my Vieille Saison a couple weeks ago. I usually pitch saison yeast and some commercial blend then let is sit 8-12 months before I blend it in with fresh beer.