Tart and Funky Saison

[Gus_13]

I have a question on what you guys think would be the best option for a bit of tartness in my Saisons. I am primarily a Saison brewer. I brew hoppy ones, brett (funky ones) and tart/old style ones as well. I’m looking to get a bit more tartness in the beers the best way possible. Typically I will blend a sour beer I have (basic lambic 6mos-1yr old) before bottling. Up to 20% of the final product being the lambic. I have read that is how it was done long ago and I’m fine if that’s the best way. It's a longer process but, the beer tends to be great after it’s been in the bottle a while as well as fresh. If the overall assumption that this is the best way, I’ll continue to do that.

Another option is to pitch lacto a few days before pitching my Saison/Brett blend and let it reach sourness before hand. I’ve tried a few times with only sub par results. I may not be doing something right but I have pitched lacto and held at 95+ and only gotten VERY mild tartness twice. I don’t have a pH meter as of right now but it’s on the docket. Anyone else have better results this way?

The final option would be to pitch everything all at once. 2 strains of lacto, 2 Saison strains and 2+ strains of Brett to let it all compete against each other. That just seems to me that the lacto may be out competed quickly and if the alcohol level gets too high then nothing will happen as far as tartness.

I also have a few oak spirals that I’ll be adding to secondary of some of them. These spirals will be moved from beer to beer acting as an “infected” barrel. Bug sticks that I've talked about in the past. Hopefully it will create a house type cocktail for my beers. 6 weeks max on the spirals probably but just enough time to get a little oak flavor but inoculate everything with the same blend of beasties on the spiral.

Sorry for the long post and if it is confusing. I've just been milling this over in my head for a while now. I've been reading through all types of books and articles seeing so many different options. I can't decide what the best way is.

 

[chefchris]

What strain of lacto have you been using? I've been having good luck sour worting with Brevis and I have some Omega Lacto Blend on the way that's suppose to be awesome as well. I'm primarily a saison brewer, too, and have been thinking about doing the same thing. I haven't sour worted one yet, just Berliner's and Gose's, but I might try a 2 day sour wort on a saison for a touch of tartness.

The first thing I did when I woke up this morning was try and check my gravity on a berliner weisse that's sour worting in a corny keg. I vented the pressure and opened the lid. I sprayed about 1.5 gallons all over our spare bedroom and I couldn't get the lid back on. I was completely soak in berliner weisse. Not a good start to the day.

 

[sweetcell]

Another option is to pitch lacto a few days before pitching my Saison/Brett blend and let it reach sourness before hand. I’ve tried a few times with only sub par results.

what source of lacto are you using? many folks have reported lackluster results with White Labs and Wyeast strains. supposedly GigaYeast's lacto is pretty good.

The final option would be to pitch everything all at once. 2 strains of lacto, 2 Saison strains and 2+ strains of Brett to let it all compete against each other. That just seems to me that the lacto may be out competed quickly and if the alcohol level gets too high then nothing will happen as far as tartness.

it would also require a good amount of time. at that point you might as well add pedio and wait 8+ moths.

 

[Gus_13]

What strain of lacto have you been using? I've been having good luck sour worting with Brevis and I have some Omega Lacto Blend on the way that's suppose to be awesome as well. I'm primarily a saison brewer, too, and have been thinking about doing the same thing. I haven't sour worted one yet, just Berliner's and Gose's, but I might try a 2 day sour wort on a saison for a touch of tartness.

The first thing I did when I woke up this morning was try and check my gravity on a berliner weisse that's sour worting in a corny keg. I vented the pressure and opened the lid. I sprayed about 1.5 gallons all over our spare bedroom and I couldn't get the lid back on. I was completely soak in berliner weisse. Not a good start to the day.

Last Berliner I did was with two packs of Brevis from Wyeast. Pitched and held at 95F for 4 or 5 days and it never got tart. Mostly a yogurty must smell.

I'm betting that wasn't a great start to the day! haha

what source of lacto are you using? many folks have reported lackluster results with White Labs and Wyeast strains. supposedly GigaYeast's lacto is pretty good.


it would also require a good amount of time. at that point you might as well add pedio and wait 8+ moths.

I've used both WL and Wyeast with agreed lackluster results. I may order some of GigaYeast's and try it out.

I agree if I am waiting that long then doing my 6mo-1yr Lambic and blending is just as good as pitching the pedio. Plus I get more beer the blending way.

 

[stpug]

I had excellent results with sour mashing a portion of the grainbill for 48 hours prior to brewday using grain as my inoculant. The very important aspects are ensuring an oxygen-free environment with a consistent 115-120F incubation for the duration. The 20% grist I sour mashed came out distinctly sour with the usual lacto qualities and without any of the entero/butyric qualities. I suspect an additional day would have resulted in a puckeringly sour mash. The sour mash was then added to the mash just prior to lautering since it had already been converted. The resulting wort had a "present" sour tang aspect to it without being "in your face", and this worked well with the beer I was brewing. However, you may increase the sour mash percentage and increase the incubation period to achieve a more tangy/sour wort for a saison.

 

[chefchris]

Last Berliner I did was with two packs of Brevis from Wyeast. Pitched and held at 95F for 4 or 5 days and it never got tart. Mostly a yogurty must smell.

I'm betting that wasn't a great start to the day! haha



I've used both WL and Wyeast with agreed lackluster results. I may order some of GigaYeast's and try it out.

I agree if I am waiting that long then doing my 6mo-1yr Lambic and blending is just as good as pitching the pedio. Plus I get more beer the blending way.

Strange. I've had completely opposite results. My pH is at 3 right now on the berliner. I usually do a pretty long starter with my lacto. I even step it up once or twice. I still feel like there's considerable lag time so if you're only plan is to pitch lacto for x amount of days then it might not have been active for the first 2 of those. Checking the pH is helpful but tasting is the best (even though it's ill advised).

Were your IBUs high? You'll read to keep it less than 10 but I usually don't throw any in. You're just working against yourself.

 

[Gus_13]

Strange. I've had completely opposite results. My pH is at 3 right now on the berliner. I usually do a pretty long starter with my lacto. I even step it up once or twice. I still feel like there's considerable lag time so if you're only plan is to pitch lacto for x amount of days then it might not have been active for the first 2 of those. Checking the pH is helpful but tasting is the best (even though it's ill advised).

Were your IBUs high? You'll read to keep it less than 10 but I usually don't throw any in. You're just working against yourself.

Mine was calculated to around 6 IBU on the Berliner. On my Saisons they can get higher but when I'm wanting a tart one I try to hover around 10 then dry hop it for some hop presence before bottling. Or when I blend the Saison with Lambic I can hop it up then after blending it's the best of both worlds.

I will have to give sour worting another try. I have a grisette on deck with the below recipe. I may try to pitch the lacto a couple days in advance and pick up a pH meter to help out.


Recipe: 4 Grain Grisette
Brewer: Gus
Asst Brewer:
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.76 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.038 SG
Estimated Color: 2.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 7.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1 lbs Unmalted Spelt (3.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 12.5 %
4 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 50.0 %
2 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 3 25.0 %
8.0 oz Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM) Grain 4 6.3 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM) Grain 5 6.3 %
0.50 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil Hop 6 7.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg Farmhouse Ale (Wyeast #3726-PC) Yeast 7 -
1.0 pkg Brettanomyces Claussenii (White Labs #WL Yeast 8 -
1.0 pkg Lactobacillus Bacteria (White Labs #WLP6 Yeast 9 -


Mash Schedule: Saison Mash Schedule
Total Grain Weight: 8 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 13.20 qt of water at 162.4 F 150.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 6.35gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------



I'll dry hop this to taste before packaging. I'll match the hops to the flavors I get to make a nice blend.

 

[berebrando]

We are both on the same mission. I've been listening to the sour hour and I pulled a lot of good stuff from the interview with Tim from SARA. Also I'm incorporating some anecdotes from him over the last couple years. My goal is to create a tart and dry saison. I'm going to mash low on a simple 10 Plato two row/wheat grist and boil with 5 ibu of bittering hops. I might want to incorporate oats for some silky mouthfeel but I haven't committed to that just yet. Ill ferment primary with saison yeast and then pitch an active blend of Brett and Lacto, which includes commercial strains (wyeast brevis, white labs brevis and delbruckii, omega Lacto blend, omega where da funk, yeast bay amalgamation) and dregs that have been built up (Sara, rare barrel and crooked stave). I'm propagating all the strains independently to avoid competition along the way. I plan to pitch the bug blend once fermentation is about 80% complete (probably around 2-3 Plato remaining because I expect this to dry out to 0). Based on what I have learned, and what I like (Saison Bernice), I think this will get me to where I want to be. Those are my thoughts!

 

[Gus_13]

We are both on the same mission. I've been listening to the sour hour and I pulled a lot of good stuff from the interview with Tim from SARA. Also I'm incorporating some anecdotes from him over the last couple years. My goal is to create a tart and dry saison. I'm going to mash low on a simple 10 Plato two row/wheat grist and boil with 5 ibu of bittering hops. I might want to incorporate oats for some silky mouthfeel but I haven't committed to that just yet. Ill ferment primary with saison yeast and then pitch an active blend of Brett and Lacto, which includes commercial strains (wyeast brevis, white labs brevis and delbruckii, omega Lacto blend, omega where da funk, yeast bay amalgamation) and dregs that have been built up (Sara, rare barrel and crooked stave). I'm propagating all the strains independently to avoid competition along the way. I plan to pitch the bug blend once fermentation is about 80% complete (probably around 2-3 Plato remaining because I expect this to dry out to 0). Based on what I have learned, and what I like (Saison Bernice), I think this will get me to where I want to be. Those are my thoughts!

Thanks for sharing! I too listen to the Sour Hour every time it's on air. I save the podcasts to listen to when traveling. I haven't had Saison Bernice yet but I'm always looking.

I think I like that approach of adding the built up cultures. I have all of those but the omega on hand. I may try to build those up and pitch them together with some dregs from HF and some other saisons I like.

Very jealous of the Rare Barrel stuff too! haha

 

[dougdecinces]

I had excellent results with sour mashing a portion of the grainbill for 48 hours prior to brewday using grain as my inoculant. The very important aspects are ensuring an oxygen-free environment with a consistent 115-120F incubation for the duration. The 20% grist I sour mashed came out distinctly sour with the usual lacto qualities and without any of the entero/butyric qualities. I suspect an additional day would have resulted in a puckeringly sour mash. The sour mash was then added to the mash just prior to lautering since it had already been converted. The resulting wort had a "present" sour tang aspect to it without being "in your face", and this worked well with the beer I was brewing. However, you may increase the sour mash percentage and increase the incubation period to achieve a more tangy/sour wort for a saison.

I was going to recommend this. I took about 30% of my grist and sour mashed it for three days. I added it at the last 15 minutes of my mash. This way you can lock in the sourness how you want it and don't have to worry about a long turnaround. I did this for a Kentucky Common that won blue ribbon at our state homebrew competition.

But if you don't mind waiting, you can always pitch lacto, pedio, and your yeast at the same time. I have actually had great results adding a few drops of brett to each bottle at bottling. Something about the increased pressure causes it to kick up some more complex flavors.

 

[smizak]

I had excellent results with sour mashing a portion of the grainbill for 48 hours prior to brewday using grain as my inoculant. The very important aspects are ensuring an oxygen-free environment with a consistent 115-120F incubation for the duration. The 20% grist I sour mashed came out distinctly sour with the usual lacto qualities and without any of the entero/butyric qualities. I suspect an additional day would have resulted in a puckeringly sour mash. The sour mash was then added to the mash just prior to lautering since it had already been converted. The resulting wort had a "present" sour tang aspect to it without being "in your face", and this worked well with the beer I was brewing. However, you may increase the sour mash percentage and increase the incubation period to achieve a more tangy/sour wort for a saison.

This ^

I use the same technique and it works great.

 

[dougdecinces]

And if you use Lacto brevis, you don't have to worry about hopping. I would hop it like you would a normal saison for more balance. And if you haven't used Wyeast 3726, try to ferment it in the mid-high 70's. At lower temperatures it is a bubble gum bomb, but it develops a lot more of that classic saison character at higher temps.

 

[Gus_13]

And if you use Lacto brevis, you don't have to worry about hopping. I would hop it like you would a normal saison for more balance. And if you haven't used Wyeast 3726, try to ferment it in the mid-high 70's. At lower temperatures it is a bubble gum bomb, but it develops a lot more of that classic saison character at higher temps.

I'll be using a blend of 3726 and 3724 as the base fermenters. I'll grow up the Brevis and Brett strains to go in the secondary with an oak spiral. Then I can just pull the oak spiral and move from batch to batch.

 

[berebrando]

Thanks for sharing! I too listen to the Sour Hour every time it's on air. I save the podcasts to listen to when traveling. I haven't had Saison Bernice yet but I'm always looking.



I think I like that approach of adding the built up cultures. I have all of those but the omega on hand. I may try to build those up and pitch them together with some dregs from HF and some other saisons I like.



Very jealous of the Rare Barrel stuff too! haha

Trust me I'm equally jealous of you and your Hill Farmstead. So far the RB starter has produced a very very doughy flavor and aroma. I've had good success with SARA dregs producing a lightly tart saison.

 

[Gus_13]

Trust me I'm equally jealous of you and your Hill Farmstead. So far the RB starter has produced a very very doughy flavor and aroma. I've had good success with SARA dregs producing a lightly tart saison.

I just have some good friends up that way! Ha ha

I'd love to work out a trade if you ever wanted to!

 

[fermentology]

I just saw this thread but thought I would throw in my two cents. I just recently bottled a saison that I brewed about 3 months ago. I wanted it to be dry and slightly tart. From the sample I took it finished at 1.004 and had a nice acidity to it. I fermented it in a 5 gallon barrel I have, which I've been slowly building a dreg farm. Details are here.

Batch size: 10.5 Gallons
Boil Time: 90 minutes
Est OG: 1.061
Measured OG: 1.060
Final Gravity:
ABV:
IBU: 16
SRM: 11

Grain Bill:
16lbs Pale Two Row Malt
3lbs Maris Otter
2lbs Sugar
1.5lbs Rye Malt
1lb Caramunich 20L
1lb Acid Malt

Hop Schedule:
60 min – East Kent Golding – 2oz

Mash Schedule:
146F single infusion scarification rest

 

[masonsjax]

I make sour saisons pretty often. I sour mash mine with excellent results. I mash like normal, then add ~80F water nearly to the top of the mash tun, bringing the temp to around 100-125F. If its a little high still, I stir while it drifts down. I throw in a handful of raw pilsner or 2-row and lay some plastic wrap on the surface, push out any bubbles. I close the lid, throw a blanket over it and leave it near a space heater. 24 hours later I taste a sample from the valve. Usually it's tart enough by now so I go ahead and drain, boil, ferment an usual. I've gone 48 hours and had it be slightly more sour than I wanted, and 72 hours which gave me teeth melting sourness that had to be blended. Between a day and a day and a half has been perfect for me. Easy, quick, and delicious!

 

[Gus_13]

I make sour saisons pretty often. I sour mash mine with excellent results. I mash like normal, then add ~80F water nearly to the top of the mash tun, bringing the temp to around 100-125F. If its a little high still, I stir while it drifts down. I throw in a handful of raw pilsner or 2-row and lay some plastic wrap on the surface, push out any bubbles. I close the lid, throw a blanket over it and leave it near a space heater. 24 hours later I taste a sample from the valve. Usually it's tart enough by now so I go ahead and drain, boil, ferment an usual. I've gone 48 hours and had it be slightly more sour than I wanted, and 72 hours which gave me teeth melting sourness that had to be blended. Between a day and a day and a half has been perfect for me. Easy, quick, and delicious!

I guess I really need to try some sour mashing. I've always been weary of it. I now have an extra 10 gallon kettles I could use for it. Do you have to maintain the temp for the 24 hours or do you just let it set and naturally cool? Also, how much grain do you pitch in raw in the beginning? I'll probably flush the top with CO2 if needed as well.

I guess I need to read up on this stuff.

*heads off to sour beer blog*

 

[youreanimpulse]

I've had better luck with sour wort rather than mash. Same thing, just run off the wort first. I pitch lacto from yogurt I cultured. I've had bad results in the past from what's randomly in residence on the grain.

 

[Gus_13]

I've had better luck with sour wort rather than mash. Same thing, just run off the wort first. I pitch lacto from yogurt I cultured. I've had bad results in the past from what's randomly in residence on the grain.

With this I could pitch a strain of lacto and let it sour for a couple days in the garage sealed. Then boil add whatever hops and then continue as normal I would assume.

 

[masonsjax]

I guess I really need to try some sour mashing. I've always been weary of it. I now have an extra 10 gallon kettles I could use for it. Do you have to maintain the temp for the 24 hours or do you just let it set and naturally cool? Also, how much grain do you pitch in raw in the beginning? I'll probably flush the top with CO2 if needed as well.

I guess I need to read up on this stuff.

*heads off to sour beer blog*

With the blankets and in a warm area the temp drops from 125F to about 110F in 24 hours, further falls to around 90F over the next 24 hours. The lacto is working just fine at those temps.

I just throw a small handful of grain in to inoculate, maybe a quarter cup at most. I haven't had problems with undesirable bacteria taking over, but if you're worried you can run it off, heat to pasteurize and pitch a commercial lacto or yogurt culture if you like. I like to leave it in the cooler to hold the temp steady.

 

[youreanimpulse]

With this I could pitch a strain of lacto and let it sour for a couple days in the garage sealed. Then boil add whatever hops and then continue as normal I would assume.

Yes. I did a sour ipa with that method recently, I just let it cool to room temp and after a week it was 3.0 ph. Boiled with Amarillo hops, about 40ibus at 60 mins and 4 oz at flameout, whirlpooled for 30 mins. Dry hopped twice, once for a week with 1 oz Amarillo 1 oz Mosaic and in the keg when I put it in the fridge, 2 more oz Amarillo. Next time I'll do more bittering (hop utilization is crap at that ph). It's like Trinity Super Juice Solution. Nothing like you're doing, but it's a crazy awesome brew everybody loves. For tart maybe just a day or two, I'd monitor ph if you can and boil at like 3.8 maybe? Taste it too. Good luck!

 

[dougdecinces]

I guess I really need to try some sour mashing. I've always been weary of it. I now have an extra 10 gallon kettles I could use for it. Do you have to maintain the temp for the 24 hours or do you just let it set and naturally cool? Also, how much grain do you pitch in raw in the beginning? I'll probably flush the top with CO2 if needed as well.

I guess I need to read up on this stuff.

*heads off to sour beer blog*

I have a three gallon lunchbox-style cooler which I use for sour mashes. I set my sour mash up at about 125-130 and after 48 hours it's still at 110. But you can always start off with a thick mash and add boiling water periodically if need be to get the temperatures up.

 

[kaz4121]

I'm about to jump into brewing some rustic farmhouse ales as well and this thread caught my attention.

What is the typical turnaround you guys are seeing for a sacch (saison) + brett fermentation?

I love old world saisons with a touch of hops, funk, and tartness. I just don't know if you can get good depth of flavor in a shorter timeframe (2 months)?

I was thinking about an extremely low mash (142-144F), and pitching the sacch + brett simultaneously. I'll divert some wort and sour it for 24-36 hours (I've successfully done this before with Omega Lacto Blend) to achieve a light acidity.

What do you guys think?

 

[Gus_13]

Sounds good to me. I've been mashing higher with my brett beers to give them more to chew on. I typically pitch Sacc, Brett, and LAB together then leave it in the primary for 4-6 months then dry hop.

I just haven't had my favorite results with kettle souring.

 

[kaz4121]

Sounds good to me. I've been mashing higher with my brett beers to give them more to chew on. I typically pitch Sacc, Brett, and LAB together then leave it in the primary for 4-6 months then dry hop.

I just haven't had my favorite results with kettle souring.

I usually mash my 12+ month wild ales higher for that exact reason, but I was interested in seeing if Brett would work a little faster if co-pitched with Sacch in a less dextrinous wort. My goal is to have a farmhouse beer on tap on a regular basis..so I am trying to play around with shortening the time frame a bit.

As for kettle souring, I agree. I just don't know how else to obtain a light tartness in a higher IBU (20ish) wort without waiting a year...

 

[burninator]

I'm about to jump into brewing some rustic farmhouse ales as well and this thread caught my attention.

What is the typical turnaround you guys are seeing for a sacch (saison) + brett fermentation?

I love old world saisons with a touch of hops, funk, and tartness. I just don't know if you can get good depth of flavor in a shorter timeframe (2 months)?

I was thinking about an extremely low mash (142-144F), and pitching the sacch + brett simultaneously. I'll divert some wort and sour it for 24-36 hours (I've successfully done this before with Omega Lacto Blend) to achieve a light acidity.

What do you guys think?

I tested gravity on a saison yesterday pitched with sacc, brett, and bugs, and after 7 weeks in primary, it's stable. Started at 1.038, and it's at 1.006 now.

 

[kaz4121]

I tested gravity on a saison yesterday pitched with sacc, brett, and bugs, and after 7 weeks in primary, it's stable. Started at 1.038, and it's at 1.006 now.

Good to hear. Any pedio in your bugs mix? I was thinking about stick to lacto only to avoid any ropiness and diacetyl in the short turnaround

 

[burninator]

Good to hear. Any pedio in your bugs mix? I was thinking about stick to lacto only to avoid any ropiness and diacetyl in the short turnaround

Probably, though I can't personally confirm it. The brett contribution was from Crooked Stave, which is thought to contain pedio. I haven't experienced any ropiness in either of the beers I've fermented with them, though. I'll have to let you know about the diacetyl, as the first beer is still bottle conditioning.

 

[Gus_13]

I should update this thread as to my process as well. I have a mixed culture that I have been using to ferment my Saison. 3726 is the base with HF dregs and some Jester King dregs. I'm definitely getting more tart Saison flavors now. I have been controlling the acidity by putting a higher bittering charge with the hops. If I keep it around 20 IBUs I've been getting some 3.6 pH beers out that are nicely tart but not to acidic. If I bump it up to 35ish IBUs I'm getting around 3.8-4 pH. I'm going to continue experimenting. It seems the LAB that comes from bottles of commercial beers is more hop tolerant than strains that are available to purchase.

 

[Ted123]

Would love to re-kindle this thread . . . but we'll see what happens.

Highly intrigued, because I've been trying to lightly tart-up my Saisons with no success, as the Brett keeps dominating and overshadowing everything else. My most recent attempt was 3726 pitched with a Brevis starter as well as a healthy starter of Cellarman dregs (from SARA) . . . Cellarman is a gorgeous beer with just the right amount of Lacto-tartness . . . but the dreg-stepping-up seemed to make the Brett come into dominance, and it thus produced an overly funky quality in my Saison.
I'm wondering how these brewers hold the Brett in check, and get the tart to shine?
Any thoughts on which bottles I should seek out, to culture "hop tolerant strains of Lacto" from?
Is the only other solution to do a longer (6 mos?) saison ferment, giving the lactic qualities more time to show up? (6 mos in primary, rack to purged secondary and dry-hop)?
thanks--ted

 

[Gus_13]

Would love to re-kindle this thread . . . but we'll see what happens.

Highly intrigued, because I've been trying to lightly tart-up my Saisons with no success, as the Brett keeps dominating and overshadowing everything else. My most recent attempt was 3726 pitched with a Brevis starter as well as a healthy starter of Cellarman dregs (from SARA) . . . Cellarman is a gorgeous beer with just the right amount of Lacto-tartness . . . but the dreg-stepping-up seemed to make the Brett come into dominance, and it thus produced an overly funky quality in my Saison.
I'm wondering how these brewers hold the Brett in check, and get the tart to shine?
Any thoughts on which bottles I should seek out, to culture "hop tolerant strains of Lacto" from?
Is the only other solution to do a longer (6 mos?) saison ferment, giving the lactic qualities more time to show up? (6 mos in primary, rack to purged secondary and dry-hop)?
thanks--ted

I've had great success with Jester King and Hill Farmstead dregs for a more hop tolerant LAB.

Also I've been using a Biere de Coupage process to great success. I brew a beer and sour it with a mixed culture of dregs and commercial cultures. Sometimes a combination of both. Then I brew my hoppy Saison and blend in a portion of the sour beer. It really adds a ton of complexity. This is how Jester King produces Das Wunderkind and some of the Dichotomous beers.

 

[Ted123]

Thanks, Gus 1 2 3 . . .
If only I could get HF or JK here in Northern California . . . they don't distribute to my neck of the woods. Maybe I need to step it up and learn how to do trading (which sounds a bit complex), cause then could offer SARA or Russian River.
Love the Coupage idea . . . gonna need to brew two different batches, that'll eventually turn into one Saison!
thanks--t

 

[Gus_13]

Thanks, Gus 1 2 3 . . .
If only I could get HF or JK here in Northern California . . . they don't distribute to my neck of the woods. Maybe I need to step it up and learn how to do trading (which sounds a bit complex), cause then could offer SARA or Russian River.
Love the Coupage idea . . . gonna need to brew two different batches, that'll eventually turn into one Saison!
thanks--t

Ooohhh I'd be willing to make a trade!

Also I believe Bernice has both HF and JK cultures in it. You make try to use those. I know Tim did say that he tossed HF dregs in his house culture. I want to say he did with JK too.

 

[505-Brewer]

I've had great success with Jester King and Hill Farmstead dregs for a more hop tolerant LAB.

Also I've been using a Biere de Coupage process to great success. I brew a beer and sour it with a mixed culture of dregs and commercial cultures. Sometimes a combination of both. Then I brew my hoppy Saison and blend in a portion of the sour beer. It really adds a ton of complexity. This is how Jester King produces Das Wunderkind and some of the Dichotomous beers.

There was a talk/demo on this approach at NHC. I cant recall if it was the guy from Council brewing or Toolbox brewing ( I want to say it was Peter Perrione ??? From Council?). They had a saison and had the audience blend in an acid beer at ~ 10:1, 5:1 and 3:1 to create rustic saison, tart saison and sour saison. Seemed like a god approach.

 

[kaz4121]

There was a talk/demo on this approach at NHC. I cant recall if it was the guy from Council brewing or Toolbox brewing ( I want to say it was Peter Perrione ??? From Council?). They had a saison and gad ghd audience blend in an acid beer at ~ 10:1, 5:1 and 3:1 to create rustic saison, tart saison and sour saison. Seemed like a god approach.

It was Jeffrey Crane of Council Brewing. They use this method to make their Beatitude series.

 

[505-Brewer]

It was Jeffrey Crane of Council Brewing. They use this method to make their Beatitude series.

Thank you for the correction! It was a good seminar.

 

[tagz]

Can you bottle when you blend or do you have to give it time to knock the last few points of the saison down?

 

[505-Brewer]

Can you bottle when you blend or do you have to give it time to knock the last few points of the saison down?

From what I recall a fully fermented Saison (typically dry) is blended w a very sour and also highly attenuated (made w/out pedio to avoid any possible ropiness issues). So its ready to bottle/keg right away. For bottle conditioning you probably want to consider re-yeasting for a healthy ferment. If your sour had pedio you would want to be aware it could go through the sick phase again in which case you would need to wait it out.

 

[Gus_13]

Can you bottle when you blend or do you have to give it time to knock the last few points of the saison down?

This totally depends on your fermentation. My typical clean fresh saison finishes around 1.002 every time. I usually blend in the mature portion in a ration of .5-1 gallon to 4-5 gallons of fresh beer. I aim for 2.8 to 3.2 vols when I bottle and if there is any more drop I will be where I like my saison to be carbonated. That said, if your fresh beer is higher in gravity, a few weeks of them sitting wouldn't be a bad idea. I just mash, ferment and build my recipe so that it will finish really dry.