Taras Boulba Clone

[couchsending]

I did my version. Not a clone, but inspired by the beer. Something hoppy and crisp with the belgian backbone. Almost like taras Boulba met fresh westy 6.

1.044
1.008
4.7%
38-40IBUs
Malts: Pils, Pale, Spelt
5% Cane sugar
Hops: sterling, mt hops, enigma
Yeast: wyeast 3942 Belgian Wheat (de dolle)

I was quite happy with it. Kept the fermentation relatively cool for a Belgian. Staying around 68 until the very end to let it finish out at 72 to ensure complete attenuation. Drinks like a pilsner with a bit more citrus and fruity hop character, with the Belgian yeast being a nice supporting flavor with some light bread, apple, and apricot esters. No clove or peppery spice to be found which I’m very happy about. I kinda think this yeast could be interesting in a NEIPA with its fruitiness but lack of phenolics.

View attachment 711719

Just ordered the Omega version of this yeast. Very excited to try it this week. I really want to create this light, dry, bitter, aromatic beer with a bit more yeast character but minimal phenolics. Crossing my fingers this yeast could be the one.

 

[dirty_martini]

Just ordered the Omega version of this yeast. Very excited to try it this week. I really want to create this light, dry, bitter, aromatic beer with a bit more yeast character but minimal phenolics. Crossing my fingers this yeast could be the one.

it’s my favorite belgian yeast. I think you’ll be happy about the character you get

 

[Early8]

I am digging this one up again because I had the pleasure of a few bottles a couple of months ago. Taras Boulba is an unusual treat in the USA. Chuck at Stockertown Beverages suggested it when I was there to pickup some Bluebird, and it really impressed me.

I am specifically trying to settle down on a recipe. I see Candisyrup.com hasn't posted one yet. I am going to split a batch and use two different yeasts and was hoping to see some updates on this thread. Would any of you have any new thoughts to add? I think I have a found some vintage 3942 to try; is there a direct alternative to 3942? I am curious about Imperial B53 Precious as a second variety to try if I could find some, but I don't see it locally.

 

[couchsending]

This is a tough beer to recreate. Noble hops are especially trashy on the homebrew scale, nothing like what Yvan is working with. I still get such low phenols in this beer. Granted I’ve only had it on tap twice and every bottle I can find is usually old as f*uck so I have no idea what it actually tastes like fresh. I’ve tried replicating it a few times with 3942 and the phenols were way too strong.

The conditioning period of this beer and bottle/keg refermentation are definitely critical as well

@bierhaus15 did you ever brew anything with the isolate?

 

[Early8]

Thanks for the reply, and understood. Did you reach a conclusion regarding 1762 and the English connection? I can't get a feel for what you all concluded regarding a yeast strain to try.

 

[bierhaus15]

@bierhaus15 did you ever brew anything with the isolate?

I brewed two beers with it, both in the style of Taras, but not as hop forward. Yeast behaved well, relatively high attenuation and flocculation with a clean, citrus-spice flavor that was neither overly fruity or phenolic. Hard to suggest a comparable yeast; it is certainly cleaner than most Belgian yeasts available to home brewers, but more characterful than the POF+ UK ones as well. Again, I'm thinking something in the same vein as Palm.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Well looks like the Candisyrup folks finally added their Taras Boulba recipe to their page.

https://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/taras_boulba_2022_-_002.pdf

 

[Early8]

I have been waiting for that; thanks for the heads up. I have fermented my version a few times with 3726 Farmhouse Ale yeast. I held it on the cool side and the results were tasty, although not quite a match based on my recollection. I am really enjoying a WLP510 version at the moment.

 

[mikeroesoft]

I have been waiting for that; thanks for the heads up. I have fermented my version a few times with 3726 Farmhouse Ale yeast. I held it on the cool side and the results were tasty, although not quite a match based on my recollection. I am really enjoying a WLP510 version at the moment.

Yeah, I’d been waiting to see it posted for a while as well. Anyway, the recipe looks nice but it’s definitely a little different than what I would have expected. I realize that process and equipment have more impact on a beer than the recipe but the mash regime, grist and yeast choice aren’t consistent with the little info De Baets has given in interviews.

 

[Early8]

Yeah, I’d been waiting to see it posted for a while as well. Anyway, the recipe looks nice but it’s definitely a little different than what I would have expected. Anyway, I realize that process and equipment have more impact on a beer than the recipe but the mash regime, grist and yeast choice aren’t consistent with the little info De Baets has given in interviews.

I was thinking the same thing. I have been using almost 6% of each Munich and Wheat rather than a Candi sugar and carapils. I don't have Dingman's Carapils readily available, but it looks like maybe it has an SRM of 8? I am generally not bothered by color much, but I think it could use some. Regarding the yeast, I would love to know the origins of the original. I was drawn to 1762 originally, but I think it is not expressive enough.

 

[Shenanigans]

I'm going to give this a try with LalBrew Farmhouse which is not supposed to be very phenolic if you keep the temperature in check.
Also in the meantime Bisonbrew made a clone attempt:

https://bisonbrew.com/taras-boulba-... version has very,a hallmark of Taras Boulba.
He also makes a reference to this very thread
His attempt was quite different than the Candisyrup recipe.

All things considered I'm just going to do 95% Pils, 5% Munich or Vienna or maybe just 100% Continental pale Ale malt.
Skip the sugar and hop it up to about 50 IBUs with Saaz and Tettnang.
Still a few things to decide on

 

[Early8]

Thank you for sharing the bisonbrew report, it’s a solid reference. That said, I can’t Imagine getting in the zone with US05, but I should try it warm before saying that for sure. In that I haven’t had the real deal for some time, I have probably drifted off target, but I am enjoying my rendition on tap right now! And I do really enjoy it and it has earned a near permanent spot on my taps. WLP515 is what I imagine is the closest in commercial production, but I can not find it to try. I always split my batches, and lately have been just enjoying WLP510, with either Wyeast 3522 or 3726 Lately. as I said I have drifted off target, but I have been really enjoying my version.

I use a Belgian Pilsner with just under 6% Munich and just under 6% wheat malt. I am also going with a single infusion at about 152 that looses a degree or two over at least 60 minutes in my version of a BIAB arrangement. i should also add that I am keeping it lighter with an OG of about 1.035, which may help the hops show themselves more?

I absolutely love the style! And it is a great place to start all sorts of variation I think. I say dive in and have fun with it! I have also been somewhat surprised to find it a crowd pleaser.

I should also add that I have been fermenting at about 70F. Please post your experiences!

 

[Shenanigans]

Thank you for sharing the bisonbrew report, it’s a solid reference. That said, I can’t Imagine getting in the zone with US05, but I should try it warm before saying that for sure. In that I haven’t had the real deal for some time, I have probably drifted off target, but I am enjoying my rendition on tap right now! And I do really enjoy it and it has earned a near permanent spot on my taps. WLP515 is what I imagine is the closest in commercial production, but I can not find it to try. I always split my batches, and lately have been just enjoying WLP510, with either Wyeast 3522 or 3726 Lately. as I said I have drifted off target, but I have been really enjoying my version.

I use a Belgian Pilsner with just under 6% Munich and just under 6% wheat malt. I am also going with a single infusion at about 152 that looses a degree or two over at least 60 minutes in my version of a BIAB arrangement. i should also add that I am keeping it lighter with an OG of about 1.035, which may help the hops show themselves more?

I absolutely love the style! And it is a great place to start all sorts of variation I think. I say dive in and have fun with it! I have also been somewhat surprised to find it a crowd pleaser.

I should also add that I have been fermenting at about 70F. Please post your experiences!

Yes I won't be trying US-05 myself.
This is kind of a side project for me that will be more a Taras Boulba inspired beer rather than an exact clone.
So I'll run with what I have at the moment and if needed make tweaks based on the results.
I got a pack of LalBrew Farmhouse that's going out of date soon so I'll try that.
The fermentation profile and cleaner Belgian character should be a good fit.
Depending on the timing I might be able to do a temperature controlled fermentation if my kegerator or else ambient in my 18 oC basement.

Now that you mention wheat you might be right as I do remember the last bottle I had of this last Summer was quite cloudy so it could indeed have some wheat in there.
I'm not sure if there's any ingredients listed on the bottle that confirms this.

What hop schedule are you using?

 

[Early8]

I just opened my notes on my first attempt:
I noted that I might want to consider replacing the Munich with Vienna ( I have not tried Vienna in this recipe so far.)
Fermented at 68 for 4 days with a slow rise to 72 over three days.
OG 1.037
White Labs WLP510 FG 1.006. I noted this quite clean and enjoyable (I think the cool ferment really contained the phenolics but did not totally hide them).
Wyeast 1762 FG 1.005 I noted that this was cleaner and more subtle than the 510, also really nice. However, neither is an exact match. (as stated above in this thread)

Regarding hop schedule, I am gentle on hopping by comparison to most brewers:
Magnum for 21 IBU @60 mins
Saaz for 2.5 IBU @20 mins
Tettnang for 3.9 IBU @20 mins
Saaz. for 1.5 IBU. @10 mins
Tettnang for 2.3 IBU @10 mins
Saaz Dry hop for 4 days

So this version came in at 30ish IBUs, which may be a little light compared to the original?

The Lalbrew Farmhouse sounds interesting. I wonder if it is related to the Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse that I have been using lately?

​

​

 

[Northern_Brewer]

WLP515 is what I imagine is the closest in commercial production, but I can not find it to try.

WLP515 is an Urquell-ish lager yeast, S-23 is a close relative. As such it's not "Belgian" at all, but does reflect the diversity of yeasts that are actually used by Belgian brewers.

It's one of the more regular White Lab seasonals, it usually comes out in late summer.

 

[Shenanigans]

I just opened my notes on my first attempt:
I noted that I might want to consider replacing the Munich with Vienna ( I have not tried Vienna in this recipe so far.)
Fermented at 68 for 4 days with a slow rise to 72 over three days.
OG 1.037
White Labs WLP510 FG 1.006. I noted this quite clean and enjoyable (I think the cool ferment really contained the phenolics but did not totally hide them).
Wyeast 1762 FG 1.005 I noted that this was cleaner and more subtle than the 510, also really nice. However, neither is an exact match. (as stated above in this thread)

Regarding hop schedule, I am gentle on hopping by comparison to most brewers:
Magnum for 21 IBU @60 mins
Saaz for 2.5 IBU @20 mins
Tettnang for 3.9 IBU @20 mins
Saaz. for 1.5 IBU. @10 mins
Tettnang for 2.3 IBU @10 mins
Saaz Dry hop for 4 days

So this version came in at 30ish IBUs, which may be a little light compared to the original?

The Lalbrew Farmhouse sounds interesting. I wonder if it is related to the Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse that I have been using lately?

​

​

I'll probably do something similar but aim for 45 to 50 IBUs and bitter with Northern Brewer.
I'll also leave out the dry hop as I will be bottling it and want to reduce the chance of oxidation.
Maybe a wirlpool instead.

I was checking WY3726 and on their site it says

So it's not similar in that respect to Lalbrew Farmhouse as they advocate the advantage of using this yeast is that it has high attenuation without the STA1 gene.
The atenuation is not as high as some traditional Saison strains though but seem comparable to WY3726.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Given that 3726 has <80% attenuation in the Wyeast standard wort, I suspect that it is an example (which is quite common) of a yeast with a broken STA1 - enough of the gene that it tests positive on PCR but not functional. But with PCR being the way that breweries often test for STA1 presence, they need to be warned that it will be PCR-positive.

 

[Early8]

WLP515 is an Urquell-ish lager yeast, S-23 is a close relative. As such it's not "Belgian" at all, but does reflect the diversity of yeasts that are actually used by Belgian brewers.

It's one of the more regular White Lab seasonals, it usually comes out in late summer.

Interesting. With my limited knowledge of WLP515 I would not have guessed it was a lager yeast. White Labs shows a Temperature range that had me thinking it was an ale yeast. I was aware that it is seasonal, but haven’t seen it available through my usual suppliers in the short time I have been aware of it.

I'll probably do something similar but aim for 45 to 50 IBUs and bitter with Northern Brewer.
I'll also leave out the dry hop as I will be bottling it and want to reduce the chance of oxidation.
Maybe a wirlpool instead.

I was checking WY3726 and on their site it says

View attachment 813184

So it's not similar in that respect to Lalbrew Farmhouse as they advocate the advantage of using this yeast is that it has high attenuation without the STA1 gene.
The atenuation is not as high as some traditional Saison strains though but seem comparable to WY3726.
View attachment 813185

Makes sense given that you are bottling particularly. It looks like I should give that yeast a try.

 

[kylesobrien]

I don't think I've ever posted to this forum, but I saw this thread and felt compelled to share information I found a while back when I became ... somewhat obsessed with this beer. This is a lot longer than I intended to write, but I hope this is helpful to someone out there.

Good luck!

Beer parameters

The items immediately below are all translated from Getest en Geproefd, Deel 2 by Test Aankoop (ISBN 9789491778063), which I'm pretty sure is out of print. Someone on Hobbybrouwen.nl was kind enough to snap a photo of the TB page and share with me.

Colour: 9.8 EBC
Bitterness: 48 IBU (https://www.fattiunabirra.it/belgio/83-taras-boulba.html claims 54 IBU!)
Cloudiness (troebelheid): 7.84 EBC

Apparent extract (schijnbaar extract): 1.99g/100g, or 2º P, so 1.008
Actual extract (werkelijk extract): 4.03g/100g, or 4º P, so 1.016
Original gravity (oorspronkelijk extract): 12.65g/100g, or 12.5º P, so 1.050 (the Italian site above notes 12ºP, think this is more likely)

Hops

In terms of hops, I'm pretty sure it's a combination of Saaz and Challenger. The CSI recipe looks tasty, and while he's noted that a sizeable amount of the hops they use are German, de Baets also says that Harvey's Sussex Best Bitter is his dream beer. From what I've been able to gather, Harvey's uses Challenger in their best bitter. I have no idea where "De Lambikstoemper" gets his information, but FWIW he thinks it's Challenger too (Taras Boulba).

In the second interview linked below (link broken), de Baets states that they use Belgian, Czech, and British hops at the brewery.

To me, fresh TB has an a bright, almost lemony flavour. In the interview with Bill Covaleski from Victory Brewing in the Brewer's Apprentice, he notes

“We’ve learned a lot of what we liked and very little of what we disliked. Say, how Tettnanger hops at a certain point become minerally and metallic. Saaz at a certain threshold is lemony and bright.”​

I would love to know what that threshold is, and if that refers to kettle hops or dry hopping.

Malt

In the Walsh presentation, he claims that TB is brewed with 100% pilsner malt. I would be a bit surprised if this were the case, given the colour and appearance. I still think there's some malted wheat in there. But Vinnie Cilurzo (third link below in article list) writes:

"It’s such a simple beer—one malt, a couple of hops varieties, one yeast for fermentation, another for bottle fermentation."​

So it seems possible. I'm assuming Vinnie has actually talked with de Baets about the recipe, and I do think it's simpler than many of the clone attempts that are out there. The yeast is doing most of the heavy lifting, but I honestly have no clue which one he's using.

Yeast

I have no idea. For a while, I thought it might be the Duvel strain. Previously I wondered if it might be the Blaugies or Ardennes strains, but the latter tends to produce bright beers. Your guess is as good as mine.

Mash schedule

45-62-72-78°C (based on A visit to Brasserie de la Senne, which full of nice details); Derek Walsh suggested a single temperature infusion instead, but personally I don't think this likely.

Fermentation temp

Start at 21-22°C, rise to 26°C to encourage ester formation. Secondary fermentation at 23°C for 15 days. (same source as mash info)

Random links related to TB

https://farmhousebeerblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/16/yeast-brasserie-de-la-senne/https://www.brouwland.com/content/assets/docs/Brouwland Hip Hops final.pdf (link defunct, tried the Wayback Machine, but no dice -- was a great presentation by Derek Walsh with info about TB on slide 43)
https://beerandbrewing.com/pick-six-russian-river-brewings-vinnie-cilurzo/
Interviews with Yvan de Baets

EP-137 Yvan de Baets of Brasserie de la Senne — Good Beer Hunting (fast-forward to 8m45s, he talks about Taras Boulba)

(episode of Tournée Générale, 2011-02-23, now blocked by the copyright holder, interview with de Baets was at 14 minutes in)

https://www.lecho.be/nieuws/archief/Le-brasseur-extremiste-Acte-I-Senne-1/9565816 (in French, and paywalled)

 

[Early8]

Thanks for sharing your notes. Like you, I dove in deep to learn more about TB. Now I am off to learn more about M36 and Harveys.... I brew alot of ordinary bitter as well.

 

[Shenanigans]

I don't think I've ever posted to this forum, but I saw this thread and felt compelled to share information I found a while back when I became ... somewhat obsessed with this beer. This is a lot longer than I intended to write, but I hope this is helpful to someone out there.

Good luck!

Beer parameters

The items immediately below are all translated from Getest en Geproefd, Deel 2 by Test Aankoop (ISBN 9789491778063), which I'm pretty sure is out of print. Someone on Hobbybrouwen.nl was kind enough to snap a photo of the TB page and share with me.

Colour: 9.8 EBC
Bitterness: 48 IBU (https://www.fattiunabirra.it/belgio/83-taras-boulba.html claims 54 IBU!)
Cloudiness (troebelheid): 7.84 EBC

Apparent extract (schijnbaar extract): 1.99g/100g, or 2º P, so 1.008
Actual extract (werkelijk extract): 4.03g/100g, or 4º P, so 1.016
Original gravity (oorspronkelijk extract): 12.65g/100g, or 12.5º P, so 1.050 (the Italian site above notes 12ºP, think this is more likely)

Hops

In terms of hops, I'm pretty sure it's a combination of Saaz and Challenger. The CSI recipe looks tasty, and while he's noted that a sizeable amount of the hops they use are German, de Baets also says that Harvey's Sussex Best Bitter is his dream beer. From what I've been able to gather, Harvey's uses Challenger in their best bitter. I have no idea where "De Lambikstoemper" gets his information, but FWIW he thinks it's Challenger too (Taras Boulba).

In the second interview linked below (link broken), de Baets states that they use Belgian, Czech, and British hops at the brewery.

To me, fresh TB has an a bright, almost lemony flavour. In the interview with Bill Covaleski from Victory Brewing in the Brewer's Apprentice, he notes

“We’ve learned a lot of what we liked and very little of what we disliked. Say, how Tettnanger hops at a certain point become minerally and metallic. Saaz at a certain threshold is lemony and bright.”​

I would love to know what that threshold is, and if that refers to kettle hops or dry hopping.

Malt

In the Walsh presentation, he claims that TB is brewed with 100% pilsner malt. I would be a bit surprised if this were the case, given the colour and appearance. I still think there's some malted wheat in there. But Vinnie Cilurzo (third link below in article list) writes:

"It’s such a simple beer—one malt, a couple of hops varieties, one yeast for fermentation, another for bottle fermentation."​

So it seems possible. I'm assuming Vinnie has actually talked with de Baets about the recipe, and I do think it's simpler than many of the clone attempts that are out there. The yeast is doing most of the heavy lifting, but I honestly have no clue which one he's using.

Yeast

I have no idea. For a while, I thought it might be the Duvel strain. Previously I wondered if it might be the Blaugies or Ardennes strains, but the latter tends to produce bright beers. Your guess is as good as mine.

Mash schedule

45-62-72-78°C (based on A visit to Brasserie de la Senne, which full of nice details); Derek Walsh suggested a single temperature infusion instead, but personally I don't think this likely.

Fermentation temp

Start at 21-22°C, rise to 26°C to encourage ester formation. Secondary fermentation at 23°C for 15 days. (same source as mash info)

Random links related to TB

https://farmhousebeerblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/16/yeast-brasserie-de-la-senne/https://www.brouwland.com/content/assets/docs/Brouwland Hip Hops final.pdf (link defunct, tried the Wayback Machine, but no dice -- was a great presentation by Derek Walsh with info about TB on slide 43)
https://beerandbrewing.com/pick-six-russian-river-brewings-vinnie-cilurzo/
Interviews with Yvan de Baets

EP-137 Yvan de Baets of Brasserie de la Senne — Good Beer Hunting (fast-forward to 8m45s, he talks about Taras Boulba)

(episode of Tournée Générale, 2011-02-23, now blocked by the copyright holder, interview with de Baets was at 14 minutes in)

https://www.lecho.be/nieuws/archief/Le-brasseur-extremiste-Acte-I-Senne-1/9565816 (in French, and paywalled)

Just had a chance to read this now.
Thanks for all the great information.
The suggested hops would be perfect as the Northern Bewer and Tettnang I had originally planned on using will be all used up in a bockbier before I get to brew this. I do however have a lot of Sazz and Challenger left.

I'll post the recipe and results when I have brewed it, either next month or in May.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

We know that Taras Boulba uses Saaz and Tettnang and the yeast was a gift from a Belgian brewery.

 

[kylesobrien]

a uses Saaz and Tettnang and the yeast was a gift from a Belgian brewery.

Interesting. I also recall seeing that the yeast is from a "popular Belgian brewery", but I hadn't heard about the Tettnang hops. Did you happen to hear this in an interview, or in an article somewhere?

I spent ages trying to learn more about the yeast they use, and the hopping for this one, but it was surprisingly difficult to arrive at something resembling a recipe. It did seem a bit "out there" to use Challenger, and I don't see any mention of that on the Harvey's site either (though apparently Batemans uses it in their XB).

 

[kylesobrien]

Just had a chance to read this now.
Thanks for all the great information.
The suggested hops would be perfect as the Northern Bewer and Tettnang I had originally planned on using will be all used up in a bockbier before I get to brew this. I do however have a lot of Sazz and Challenger left.

I'll post the recipe and results when I have brewed it, either next month or in May.

I'm very excited to hear how that turns out. I might give it a go myself, depending on what results, I'm happy to share my recipe and notes here as well. The local importer will be bringing in Taras Boulba this summer. I haven't had a fresh one in forever...

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I hadn't heard about the Tettnang hops. Did you happen to hear this in an interview, or in an article somewhere?

I spoke to someone from De La Senne face to face while drinking Taras Boulba. They only mentioned Saaz and Tettnang. They didn't want to give too much away, but also said lots of hops, and pilsner malt. Other people have reported the use of Tettnang if you read around.

I'm bottling a beer inspired by TB today which I split between Wyeast 1318, WLP400 and WLP073, because I had these 3 yeasts in the fridge. One of them has filled me with hope (for TB similarity, rather than an exact match). I'll report back in due course.

My view is that YdB has been influenced by his love of English bitters and his admiration for the best American brewers, but is still very rooted in Belgian brewing, the saison story and his research of it, and has been very influenced by his time at De Ranke. He appears to use almost entirely European, non British ingredients. I gleaned that only one beer had a non European hop and it wasn't TB and it wasn't a British hop. That was a few years ago. 2018. I reckon when he devised TB he was seeking to basically create a session bitter strength, loose version of De Ranke XX, which he presumably helped brew. Great new inventions are usually/often a step or two away from something else, with the step itself inspired by a second source of inspiration. Maybe! XX is I think a saison with IPA hopping. TB is XX (pretty much) reduced to English Bitter cask strength.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

XX is I think a saison with IPA hopping.

Although Roncoroni and Verstrepen in their book measured XX at only 38 IBU in the lab, despite talk elsewhere of it being 65 IBU. And 10 EBC FWIW. Thinking about it, it's actually a bit weird that they don't include TB, they have most of the other big names of Belgium.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Although Roncoroni and Verstrepen in their book measured XX at only 38 IBU in the lab, despite talk elsewhere of it being 65 IBU. And 10 EBC FWIW. Thinking about it, it's actually a bit weird that they don't include TB, they have most of the other big names of Belgium.

I only mean that XX is a relatively highly hopped beer, and relatively bitter. I think YdB took that notion with him from his time there, along with a sense of American hopping and of dry English session bitters, and of saisons. TB ticks his boxes. XX is Brewer's Gold and Mittelfruh, apparently.

 

[kylesobrien]

Although Roncoroni and Verstrepen in their book measured XX at only 38 IBU in the lab, despite talk elsewhere of it being 65 IBU. And 10 EBC FWIW. Thinking about it, it's actually a bit weird that they don't include TB, they have most of the other big names of Belgium.

I had the exact same thought when I received my copy of Belgian Beer: Tested and Tasted. It will surprise no one who has read my initial post here that Taras Boulba was the reason I bought that book, and it wasn't even included!

Nevertheless, I think the details in Getest en Geproefd volume 2 are arguably more useful where brewers are concerned. I've attached the page here, hopefully that's OK as the book appears to be out of print.

 

[kylesobrien]

I spoke to someone from De La Senne face to face while drinking Taras Boulba. They only mentioned Saaz and Tettnang. They didn't want to give too much away, but also said lots of hops, and pilsner malt. Other people have reported the use of Tettnang if you read around.

My view is that YdB has been influenced by his love of English bitters and his admiration for the best American brewers, but is still very rooted in Belgian brewing, the saison story and his research of it, and has been very influenced by his time at De Ranke. He appears to use almost entirely European, non British ingredients. I gleaned that only one beer had a non European hop and it wasn't TB and it wasn't a British hop.

This is excellent information, thank you! I would tend to agree that Taras Boulba is saison-like, but with the drinkability of a great English bitter. I think what I love about it is that it fuses what I enjoy about both styles, while the characteristics are in total harmony with each other. It blows my mind that De Baets was able to achieve that so well in a beer of low gravity. It's really an amazing feat, honestly.

TB is XX (pretty much) reduced to English Bitter cask strength.

I think there are certainly similarities between the two, I have to wonder if De Ranke's recipe was inspired a bit by British brewing traditions as well.

XX is also an incredible beer, it was actually the first one I had which made me appreciate the effect of using whole cone kettle hops. The mouthfeel of XX is something else. Both XX Bitter and Taras Boulba are among my very favourite Belgian ales.

It's great to talk about this brew with other fans. I think my friends started worrying about my mental health 2 or 3 years ago when I started going down the rabbit hole.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

This is excellent information, thank you! I would tend to agree that Taras Boulba is saison-like, but with the drinkability of a great English bitter. I think what I love about it is that it fuses what I enjoy about both styles, while the characteristics are in total harmony with each other. It blows my mind that De Baets was able to achieve that so well in a beer of low gravity. It's really an amazing feat, honestly.

I think there are certainly similarities between the two, I have to wonder if De Ranke's recipe was inspired a bit by British brewing traditions as well.

XX is also an incredible beer, it was actually the first one I had which made me appreciate the effect of using whole cone kettle hops. The mouthfeel of XX is something else. Both XX Bitter and Taras Boulba are among my very favourite Belgian ales.

It's great to talk about this brew with other fans. I think my friends started worrying about my mental health 2 or 3 years ago when I started going down the rabbit hole.

As an Englishman who drinks great beers of low gravity all the time, it doesn't really amaze me so much. At 4.5% it is stronger than a lot of English cask ales - the majority taste for cask ales is between 3.8 and 4.5%. I drank Boddingtons bitter in the 70s, and I wish I could drink that beer now - it was not dissimilar to TB really -1035, high bitterness, very dry, very pale. English hops but mostly bittering, just a small dry hop. YdB would have adored it! Some English beers are close to the saisons that he espouses, I reckon. There seems to be a suspicion of low ABV beers in the USA? I suspect that will shift if it isn't already. A lot of flavour can exist in a 1035 - 1040 beer and the drinkability is a big win. The first time I drank TB was when it was served to me by a representative of the brewery from a fresh keg brought over that day from the brewery and it was something else. I loved it and I share your enthusiasm for it. I like the Bruxellensis by DelaS too.

 

[kylesobrien]

I drank Boddingtons bitter in the 70s, and I wish I could drink that beer now - it was not dissimilar to TB really -1035, high bitterness, very dry, very pale. English hops but mostly bittering, just a small dry hop. YdB would have adored it!

I never had the privilege of tasting classic real ale in the 1970's, but Ron Pattinson has made it possible to live somewhat vicariously through his regular trips down memory lane. I've never made the time to try one of his Let's Brew Wednesday recipes, but I really should.

The last time I made a lower gravity UK pale, it was Graham Wheeler's recipe for Caledonian Deuchars, which I rather liked, at a modest 3.5%.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I never had the privilege of tasting classic real ale in the 1970's, but Ron Pattinson has made it possible to live somewhat vicariously through his regular trips down memory lane. I've never made the time to try one of his Let's Brew Wednesday recipes, but I really should.

The last time I made a lower gravity UK pale, it was Graham Wheeler's recipe for Caledonian Deuchars, which I rather liked, at a modest 3.5%.

Deuchars was very good in its heyday too. There are plenty of beers around now that follow the same model in the UK, pale, dry, hoppy, low abv. With all sorts of hops adorning them from home and abroad. Good times.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I would tend to agree that Taras Boulba is saison-like, but with the drinkability of a great English bitter. I think what I love about it is that it fuses what I enjoy about both styles, while the characteristics are in total harmony with each other.

Except they are not distinct styles. One of the great lies of North American brewing is that British yeast are low-attenuation, non-phenolic yeasts like Windsor, when it's a complete outlier that only really makes sense when you think that it originally came from a multistrain that also included the ancestor of Nottingham. Nobody in the UK brews with a single-strain yeast with <70% attenuation on a standard modern wort. And a surprising number use members of the saison family, particularly in northern England - if you look at a real catalogue of British yeasts like Brewlab, you'll see that 5 out of 11 on their short list mention some kind of phenolic character - a long way from the story that the North American yeast labs would tell you.

As one example, we know that the Boddies of the 1970s could have apparent attenuation over 90% - there's very little to distinguish it from a low-alcohol saison recipe and in fact Boddies is rather stronger than the traditional 3-3.5% ABV of saisons - after all, both were made to slake the thirst of the working man, not get him drunk.

But it's no wonder that Taras Boulba is popular in Manchester, certainly before lockdown it was a fairly common sight in Manc bars.

 

[kylesobrien]

Except they are not distinct styles. One of the great lies of North American brewing is that British yeast are low-attenuation, non-phenolic yeasts like Windsor, when it's a complete outlier that only really makes sense when you think that it originally came from a multistrain that also included the ancestor of Nottingham. Nobody in the UK brews with a single-strain yeast with <70% attenuation on a standard modern wort. And a surprising number use members of the saison family, particularly in northern England - if you look at a real catalogue of British yeasts like Brewlab, you'll see that 5 out of 11 on their short list mention some kind of phenolic character - a long way from the story that the North American yeast labs would tell you.

As one example, we know that the Boddies of the 1970s could have apparent attenuation over 90% - there's very little to distinguish it from a low-alcohol saison recipe and in fact Boddies is rather stronger than the traditional 3-3.5% ABV of saisons - after all, both were made to slake the thirst of the working man, not get him drunk.

But it's no wonder that Taras Boulba is popular in Manchester, certainly before lockdown it was a fairly common sight in Manc bars.

Nothing like a blundering North American with his uninventive biases to bring a simmering thread back to life! Just kidding.

Your comment reminds me of a neat strain analysis that was published in Nature some time ago:

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=4000https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0030-5
A fascinating possibility given these results is that the Rochefort strain (WLP540) is much more closely related to yeasts from England and Ireland than to strains found elsewhere in the country. The gap between these brewing traditions is not as wide as it might have once seemed, as you noted.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Except they are not distinct styles. One of the great lies of North American brewing is that British yeast are low-attenuation, non-phenolic yeasts like Windsor, when it's a complete outlier that only really makes sense when you think that it originally came from a multistrain that also included the ancestor of Nottingham. Nobody in the UK brews with a single-strain yeast with <70% attenuation on a standard modern wort. And a surprising number use members of the saison family, particularly in northern England - if you look at a real catalogue of British yeasts like Brewlab, you'll see that 5 out of 11 on their short list mention some kind of phenolic character - a long way from the story that the North American yeast labs would tell you.

As one example, we know that the Boddies of the 1970s could have apparent attenuation over 90% - there's very little to distinguish it from a low-alcohol saison recipe and in fact Boddies is rather stronger than the traditional 3-3.5% ABV of saisons - after all, both were made to slake the thirst of the working man, not get him drunk.

But it's no wonder that Taras Boulba is popular in Manchester, certainly before lockdown it was a fairly common sight in Manc bars.

Common maybe not, but it was on tap at Beermoth pre lockdown. Wasn't on there when I visited last week. I need to get hold of a bottle for comparison.

We don't have the kind of phenolics in England that Belgian beers possess, but we do commonly have yeasts that attenuate more than Windsor in the majority of beers. Whether that's single, dual or multi strains. A strain like Windsor is usually accompanied by something higher attenuating. Ringwood is a dual strain that Wyeast and Whitelabs have taken one strain from. The over simplification of yeast needs thinking about.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

A fascinating possibility given these results is that the Rochefort strain (WLP540) is much more closely related to yeasts from England and Ireland than to strains found elsewhere in the country. The gap between these brewing traditions is not as wide as it might have once seemed, as you noted.

Well I'd always be cautious about saying a yeast lab strain "is" Brewery X's strain - at the very least most lab strains are many generations removed from a single colony taken from what was probably a multistrain. And WLP540 may make similar beer to Rochefort dregs but it's not nearly as complex so there's definitely something missing there, whether missing components of a multistrain or the blandification that seems to happen in the course of getting to yeast lab freezers. And I have some beer in my stash to prove it, Rochefort dregs are becoming one of my favourite yeasts.

But Rochefort is a bit of a special case, their brewery was visited by the Germans in WWII so had to start from scratch after the war and they had some problems with yeast borrowed from other Trappists so they ended up with a consultant raiding the Palm yeast bank in the 1960s and presumably coming back with something along the lines of Ringwood. So although some Belgians like to make out their brewing tradition is very ancient, being the traditional venue for resolving disputes between their neighbours means that the reality may be rather less ancient...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Common maybe not, but it was on tap at Beermoth pre lockdown. Wasn't on there when I visited last week. I need to get hold of a bottle for comparison.

I had a crawl before lockdown where something like 4 out of 5 freehouses had it on. It helps that Cave Direct are the importers, who have a big presence in Mcr - anywhere that has Paulaner on is supplied by them (and so could source some Taras for you if you chat them up...).

We don't have the kind of phenolics in England that Belgian beers possess

They're definitely there - it's not prominent as a lot of English processes try to damp them down, but it's there in a good pint of Harvey's for instance (whose yeast is northern, from John Smith's)

The over simplification of yeast needs thinking about.

Oh yes, can only agree.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Well I'd always be cautious about saying a yeast lab strain "is" Brewery X's strain - at the very least most lab strains are many generations removed from a single colony taken from what was probably a multistrain. And WLP540 may make similar beer to Rochefort dregs but it's not nearly as complex so there's definitely something missing there, whether missing components of a multistrain or the blandification that seems to happen in the course of getting to yeast lab freezers. And I have some beer in my stash to prove it, Rochefort dregs are becoming one of my favourite yeasts.

But Rochefort is a bit of a special case, their brewery was visited by the Germans in WWII so had to start from scratch after the war and they had some problems with yeast borrowed from other Trappists so they ended up with a consultant raiding the Palm yeast bank in the 1960s and presumably coming back with something along the lines of Ringwood. So although some Belgians like to make out their brewing tradition is very ancient, being the traditional venue for resolving disputes between their neighbours means that the reality may be rather less ancient...

What is the Palm yeast bank?

I had a crawl before lockdown where something like 4 out of 5 freehouses had it on. It helps that Cave Direct are the importers, who have a big presence in Mcr - anywhere that has Paulaner on is supplied by them (and so could source some Taras for you if you chat them up...).

They're definitely there - it's not prominent as a lot of English processes try to damp them down, but it's there in a good pint of Harvey's for instance (whose yeast is northern, from John Smith's)

Interesting about the Paulaner connection. Agree about Harvey's. Instantly noticeable. The most Belgian of regular English beers perhaps.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What is the Palm yeast bank?

Palm are one of the bigger breweries in Belgium, who bought Rodenbach among others before being bought in turn by Bavaria/Swinckels. Like Whitbread, they made a point of collecting yeast for study.

Interesting about the Paulaner connection.

Just to be clear - the only connection is Cave Direct being the importer, but Paulaner is the most reliable way to tell if a bar is supplied by them. They also have things like Delirium on their books, and most recently have started importing Tipopils. Their retail outlet is www.beermerchants.com - they have a bar near the Olympic Park in London, the club night for at least one of the early Brewcons was held there.

 

[kylesobrien]

Well I'd always be cautious about saying a yeast lab strain "is" Brewery X's strain - at the very least most lab strains are many generations removed from a single colony taken from what was probably a multistrain. And WLP540 may make similar beer to Rochefort dregs but it's not nearly as complex so there's definitely something missing there, whether missing components of a multistrain or the blandification that seems to happen in the course of getting to yeast lab freezers. And I have some beer in my stash to prove it, Rochefort dregs are becoming one of my favourite yeasts.

This is definitely true -- this is why I suggested it's a "fascinating possibility", I imagine the brewery yeasts may not be entirely identical to what the labs are selling.

Trying to manage a multi-strain culture in a production facility sounds like a logistical nightmare (in terms of maintaining the balance of yeasts, though certainly it's possible), I suspect that a major factor in Wyeast and White Labs decision to offer yeasts that are monocultures is the consistency, convenience, and predictability that they provide.

It's funny, a while ago people (myself included) got a bit excited about a sequence analysis posted here for the yeast Tree House Brewing uses in many of their pale ales and IPAs. At the time, I thought it was clever to blend three dried yeasts in predefined proportions. This thread has made me appreciate that this is almost like reverse engineering the complexity that already exists for many breweries who ferment with (clean) mixed cultures, and have for decades -- which is not terribly novel after all.