Sweeter over time?

[joegbeer]

I brewed an original extract based pale ale recipe (~45 IBU). From Boil to keg ready in about 3 weeks. The beer tasted GREAT. I bottled some beers off the keg to share with friends.

Flash forward about 3 weeks. Tonight I gave a friend a bottle to try. He wanted to split the beer with me. I was absolutely shocked. It did not taste bad, but overall it was no where near the hop flavor that the beer originally had when I tried it 2-3 weeks prior off the keg. In fact the malt sweetness of the beer was completely in the fore front of the taste. I honestly thought that the sweetness was so strong that it ruined the beers' flavor.

Anyone have any thoughts on why a pale ale conditioning for 3 weeks in a bottle could turn out so sweet?

 

[bransona]

What was your recipe? Generally, bitterness decreases over time. Maybe you didn't bitter enough and are just noticing it as the beer matures?

 

[Yooper]

Hops aroma and flavor fades fairly fast, especially if the beer was exposed to oxygen (like during bottling).

How old is the beer? It sounds like it's at least 6 weeks old? Maybe even more? That's fairly aged for a hoppy 1.045 OG beer.

 

[joegbeer]

Okay, I think I'm onto something now. Recipe and timeframes below:

I posted last night after I was disappointed with how my new beer tasted with my friend. Today, I opened the last bottle AND compared a pint from the keg. A WORLD of difference.

Keg:
- tiny bit of translucent haze in the beer
- smell hop aroma
- tastes like a reasonable APA.

Bottle:
- much more crystal clear
- No hop aroma, almost a malty sugary butterscotch smell
- taste generic bitterness, but none of the citra/centennial citrus flavors
- very sweet up front taste


Recipe: APA Citra/Centennial v3

Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated FG: 1.014
Estimated Color: 5.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 45.3 IBUs
Measured OG: 1.058
Measured FG: 1.012

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 6.5 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.5 %
6 lbs Extra Light Dry Extract (2.0 SRM) Dry Extract 3 77.4 %
12.0 oz Light Dry Extract (4.0 SRM) Dry Extract 4 9.7 %
1.00 oz Magnum [12.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 22.6 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
0.50 oz Centennial [10.60 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 3.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [14.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 4.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.60 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 1.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 2.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 12 5.5 IBUs
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 13 -
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs


Timeframe:

1/24/16 - Boil
1/31/16 - Dry Hopping
2/5/16 - Keg and chill
2/12/16 - Drank first glass out of the keg. Delicious.
2/19/16 - Bottled a 6 pack off the keg.
3/12/16 - Shared a bottle with a friend that tasted WAY sweeter and more maltier than what I had been drinking from the keg for the past 3 weeks.

After I bottled, I stored them in the temperature controlled chest freezer than I serve out of. However, I brewed a Marzen that I needed to lager ferment and I raised the temperature to 51 in the freezer. After 9 days, I pulled the marzen out of the freezer to do a diacetyl rest, then crashed the lagering process to 33 degrees. The beer in the keg AND in the bottles were subject to those temperature changes. Do you think that could of had any affect?

Does bottling from a keg risk that much oxidation and flavor change in a bottle? I just use a bottling wand off my picnic taps to fill the bottles at a low PSI.

I'm very happy overall with the beers that I've been making, but I'd like to better understand whether of not I can bottle and share them over a few weeks or not.

 

[McKnuckle]

The bottle description sounds like classic oxidation to me. Hop aroma is one of the first things to go when that happens, I've found.

 

[joegbeer]

The bottle description sounds like classic oxidation to me. Hop aroma is one of the first things to go when that happens, I've found.

If that is the case, and I'm starting to believe that it is, how can you bottle from the keg without trashing your beer if you want to keep it for a few weeks (convenience)?

I've bottled some marzens from the keg for months and they tasted fine.

 

[ram5ey]

The thing to me about this is the bulk of your hops are coming late in the process, which basically starts a timer on shelf life. It is going to taste great fresh and then start to degrade really fast. I wouldn't be holding on to this in the bottle for a few weeks. If I needed to bottle some I would do it on an as needed basis. That is just what I would do to know the flavor of what I'm sharing.

How do you bottle form the keg? Do you purge bottles with Co2?

 

[MVKTR2]

I've had no experience with oxidation but it does seem plausible though I'd guess it would mostly be oxide flavor and whatever hop flavor was there. My money is on water chemistry and dry hopping while the yeast were still in suspension and when they dropped it pulled out a lot of hop character.

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

Seems to me like oxidation as well.

A good way to avoid oxidation using this filling technique is to flush the bottles with CO2 before you fill, and to cap on foam.

Unlike bottle conditioning, there is no yeast to scavenge any dissolved oxygen that's picked up from transferring, so you have to be extra vigilant in keeping O2 out.

 

[MVKTR2]

I've never cared for us05 for just those reasons as u need to manage the yeast at the end of active fermentation for best results.

 

[chickypad]

Yep, agree with the comments about oxidation. IMO too often people think oxidation = cardboard flavor, and if they don't taste carboard (I don't think I ever personally have gotten that) then they think the beer can't be oxidized. Seems to me it's much more common to see subtle changes of oxidation - whether we recognize them as such or not- like muting of hops, dulling of flavor, or a beer losing it's "brightness", all of which I think can increase the perception of sweetness. Honey like aroma, sherry flavors, or diacetyl (butterscotch) can also be from oxidation.

 

[ram5ey]

Yep, agree with the comments about oxidation. IMO too often people think oxidation = cardboard flavor, and if they don't taste carboard (I don't think I ever personally have gotten that) then they think the beer can't be oxidized. Seems to me it's much more common to see subtle changes of oxidation - whether we recognize them as such or not- like muting of hops, dulling of flavor, or a beer losing it's "brightness", all of which I think can increase the perception of sweetness. Honey like aroma, sherry flavors, or diacetyl (butterscotch) can also be from oxidation.

Yeah or a sweet caramel dark fruit thing that in British beers is attributed to British beer flavor is really just cross Atlantic oxidation. I loved going to London last year and thinking "oh that's what that's supposed to taste like"

 

[joegbeer]

Seems to me like oxidation as well.

A good way to avoid oxidation using this filling technique is to flush the bottles with CO2 before you fill, and to cap on foam.

Unlike bottle conditioning, there is no yeast to scavenge any dissolved oxygen that's picked up from transferring, so you have to be extra vigilant in keeping O2 out.

How do you flush a bottle with CO2? I only have a CO2 tank with a ball joint gas line.

Point noted about capping with foam. I filled all 6 bottles, then capped. I'll definitely try this next time.

Anyone else have any other keg bottling tips to help reduce oxidation?

 

[joegbeer]

I generally brew less hoppy beers (marzens, porters, stouts), so maybe that's why I had not previously noticed the oxidation when bottling.

For those who bottle from a keg, what's a reasonable lifetime for a hoppy beer in a bottle? Can I not expect to get 2-4 weeks? I realize some of the hop aroma will fade over time.

I brew about every other week and I was really hoping to keep supply on hand of samples from my last 2-3 brews. For example, I would like to start brewing pilsners and helles and be able to bottle a few to hand out to friends as the come over. If I can't store them for a couple weeks, I guess I'll just not share.

 

[joegbeer]

I generally brew less hoppy beers (marzens, porters, stouts), so maybe that's why I had not previously noticed the oxidation when bottling.

For those who bottle from a keg, what's a reasonable lifetime for a hoppy beer in a bottle? Can I not expect to get 2-4 weeks? I realize some of the hop aroma will fade over time.

I brew about every other week and I was really hoping to keep supply on hand of samples from my last 2-3 brews. For example, I would like to start brewing pilsners and helles and be able to bottle a few to hand out to friends as the come over. If I can't store them for a couple weeks, I guess I'll just not share.

Okay, I just did some google research to find out how basic my question really is.

Sounds like I need to buy a counter pressure filler or a beer gun that will let me purge with C02. I definitely learned a lot about oxidized beer. Blech.

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

Okay, I just did some google research to find out how basic my question really is.

Sounds like I need to buy a counter pressure filler or a beer gun that will let me purge with C02. I definitely learned a lot about oxidized beer. Blech.

You might not have to buy a beer gun or counter pressure filler just yet. I've heard of people who will just use sanitized CO2 line to purge bottles. I wish I could give you a detailed description of how to do this, but I don't keg.

Also, since you're filling the bottle to the lip, then removing the bottling wand, you've already purged all the oxygen from the bottle by the filling action. It's when you pull the bottling wand out that you draw air into the bottle. I think the important part is to cap on foam, or put a little CO2 in the bottle after filling to make sure no oxygen will get trapped in the headspace after you cap.

I'd try that technique before investing in a beer gun/counter pressure filler. Test the theory by putting a few bottles aside for a few weeks/months to see how they age. Of course, either of those fillers are great investments if you plan on bottling from kegs often, and especially when entering competitions.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

This is how I have been doing it with good results.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=24678

 

[McKnuckle]

Personally I've had a hell of a time bottling off my kegs. So far I've resisted the beer gun due to expense, so I've tried a series of canes, tubes, stoppers, and other jerry-rigs. Such a mess!

Why not plan your batch and packaging around a hybrid approach? You can make six gallons and naturally carb one of them in bottles, then keg the rest.