Sweet stout malt profile

[EvanMyl]

I'm planning a sweet stout and trying to figure a good malt profile before messing about with fancier adjuncts.

How does this look?

60% Maris Otter
10% Carapils
15% chocolate malt
10% CM biscuit
3% flaked oats
2% black malt

I think there's enough unfermentable sugars there, hopefully not too many though. I haven't run it through any software yet to ensure sufficient ABV, will do that later today.

I'm planning on using WLP002 with it, it's a low attenuation yeast that I hope will leave enough sugars behind.

 

[NorCalBrewer1]

I just ran it through software for you. Made it kind of complicated since you didn't specify the amount of grains, but I guesstimated a 5gal batch.

To answer, yes it looks like you will have no problems achieving a good ABV with the sugars in those grains. As for unfermentable, I don't know, I'm new to this so I probably shouldn't even be answering. But I will anyway.


Here's some stats I put together for you...

Grains
UK Maris Otter - 9.44 lbs (59.9%)
American Chocolate -2.4 lbs (15.2%)
American Black Malt - .32 lbs (2%)
American Carapils - 1.47 lbs (9.3%)
Flaked Oats - .5lbs (3.2%)
Belgian Biscuit - 1.645 lbs (10.4%)

Stats
OG: 1.084
FG: 1.028
ABV: 7.33%
IBU: N/A (No hops specified)
SRM: 40 (very dark)

Matches styles based on stats only:
Dry Mead, Semi-Sweet Mead, Sweet Mead, Braggot, Metheglin, Open Category Mead, Cyser (Apple Melomel), Other Fruit Melomel, Pyment (Grape Melomel)

Of course this is just an example of a 5gal batch, you can use less grains for less abv obviously. 5.5gal with this grain bill comes out to 6.66% abv, which imo suits the color.

- Hope this helps somewhat.

 

[EvanMyl]

More than helps, I was really worried the ABV wasn't going to be up to scratch. Much appreciated

Flavor-wise, any recommendations? I figured the Maris Otter with the Choc and the Biscuit malts should create a well-rounded flavor (the rest of the ingredients are there for mouthfeel, head proteins, and body).

Hops-wise, I was considering using Chinook for bittering and Cascade for aroma, but only because I have experience from those hops and I know they are not particularly intrusive in stouts. Might go for EKG though for aroma.

Would throwing chocolate nibs at bottling for that additional flavor be overkill?

I just ran it through software for you. Made it kind of complicated since you didn't specify the amount of grains, but I guesstimated a 5gal batch.

To answer, yes it looks like you will have no problems achieving a good ABV with the sugars in those grains. As for unfermentable, I don't know, I'm new to this so I probably shouldn't even be answering. But I will anyway.


Here's some stats I put together for you...

Grains
UK Maris Otter - 9.44 lbs (59.9%)
American Chocolate -2.4 lbs (15.2%)
American Black Malt - .32 lbs (2%)
American Carapils - 1.47 lbs (9.3%)
Flaked Oats - .5lbs (3.2%)
Belgian Biscuit - 1.645 lbs (10.4%)

Stats
OG: 1.084
FG: 1.028
ABV: 7.33%
IBU: N/A (No hops specified)
SRM: 40 (very dark)

Matches styles based on stats only:
Dry Mead, Semi-Sweet Mead, Sweet Mead, Braggot, Metheglin, Open Category Mead, Cyser (Apple Melomel), Other Fruit Melomel, Pyment (Grape Melomel)

Of course this is just an example of a 5gal batch, you can use less grains for less abv obviously. 5.5gal with this grain bill comes out to 6.66% abv, which imo suits the color.

- Hope this helps somewhat.

 

[peterj]

I don't think you don't have enough base malt in that recipe. 60% Maris otter is running a risk of not having enough diastatic power in the mash to complete conversion. 17% roasted malts is way too much and 10% biscuit is also way too much.

I would probably either change the biscuit to Munich or go to ~0.5 lb of biscuit and make up the difference with Maris Otter. Then I would cut the roasted malts to ~10%. Maybe lean more heavily on the black patent over the chocolate, but that part is just my opinion.

Also, are you going to add lactose? A sweet stout is a milk stout. They had to call is sweet stout up until recent years because of some law against calling them milk stouts.

Here's a good article on the style: https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/2788-sweet-stout-style-profile

EDIT: And I just noticed the carapils in your recipe. I would probably change that to a crystal 80 or something like that. And maybe a bit less of it.

 

[EvanMyl]

Doesn't Maris Otter have way more diastatic power than Munich? 120°L compared to 40°L?

Concerning the lactose, I was considering doing a batch without to get an idea of what the malts alone can do for me, then either use lactose or vanilla extract. Definitely something I'm considering.

I don't think you don't have enough base malt in that recipe. 60% Maris otter is running a risk of not having enough diastatic power in the mash to complete conversion. 17% roasted malts is way too much and 10% biscuit is also way too much.

I would probably either change the biscuit to Munich or go to ~0.5 lb of biscuit and make up the difference with Maris Otter. Then I would cut the roasted malts to ~10%. Maybe lean more heavily on the black patent over the chocolate, but that part is just my opinion.

Also, are you going to add lactose? A sweet stout is a milk stout. They had to call is sweet stout up until recent years because of some law against calling them milk stouts.

Here's a good article on the style: https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/2788-sweet-stout-style-profile

EDIT: And I just noticed the carapils in your recipe. I would probably change that to a crystal 80 or something like that. And maybe a bit less of it.

 

[peterj]

Doesn't Maris Otter have way more diastatic power than Munich? 120°L compared to 40°L?

Concerning the lactose, I was considering doing a batch without to get an idea of what the malts alone can do for me, then either use lactose or vanilla extract. Definitely something I'm considering.

I've heard a diastatic power anywhere from 120°L down to 50°L for Maris Otter. Crisp lists it at 50°L on their website. But, I was saying you should replace the Biscuit malt with Munich malt. Biscuit malt has very little diastatic power (around 25°L or less I think) while Munich has somewhere between 40°L-70°L.

But enzymes aside, I think 10% biscuit malt would be slightly overwhelming flavor wise. I was just saying 10% Munich malt would give you a similar bready flavor but at a more reasonable level. And the 17% roasted may be a bit overwhelming as well.

The carapils will give you dextrins and a thicker mouthfeel, but it won't give you any caramel sweetness that you would get from a darker crystal malt like crystal 40 or 80 or something. I would want that caramel sweetness in a sweet stout.

 

[m00ps]

I agree on the lactose addition. Without it, I don;t think this qualifies as a "sweet stout." Doesn;t mean it wont be good, it just won't have the silky luxurious texture to it

I also agree with reducing the biscuit. Generally, I try to stay under 20% specialty grains by weight, with heavier beers leaning more towards 20 and stuff like IPAs closer to 10 or even 5. You;ve got a whopping 37% specialty grains there (counting oats as a base malt). In my experience, that's not going to lead to a good clean beer. I'd just do like 4oz carapils (for head retention), and switch the biscuit with caramel 40 or 80

 

[uncleleon]

Personally I wouldn't use near as much chocolate, if you wanna go that black I'd go with caraf 3 or debittered.

 

[Yooper]

I would use more base malt, and lower the specialty grains by quite a bit.

I don't love chocolate malt, and find it a bit harsh in large amounts, so I'd definitely cut that- alot! I'd probably go with pale chocolate if you could find it, and in a much smaller amount- like 5%, and increase the black malt a bit for the typical "stout" taste without going too acrid or harsh.

You don't need any carapils at all, let alone nearly 10% (!) but some medium to dark crystal would be awesome in it, to "round" the flavors of the roasted malts and to bring a bit of sweetness to the beer- say 7-8% crystal 60L or 80L.

I'd definitely ditch the biscuit malt in this. While I love what it brings to some beers, in a stout that is already going to have some dryness to it from the roasted malts, it'll make it feel even drier and push the roasted malts towards astringency.

There isn't any "sweetness" at all in the recipe as written- it looks astringent, harsh and dry. I hate to rip on it, but it sounds like it's totally opposite of what you're hoping to achieve.

 

[EvanMyl]

I found an analysis sheet and Maris Otter's diastatic power is 62°L, so you're absolutely right.
Looks like the majority here advise against the Biscuit, so that will have to go.

I've heard a diastatic power anywhere from 120°L down to 50°L for Maris Otter. Crisp lists it at 50°L on their website. But, I was saying you should replace the Biscuit malt with Munich malt. Biscuit malt has very little diastatic power (around 25°L or less I think) while Munich has somewhere between 40°L-70°L.

But enzymes aside, I think 10% biscuit malt would be slightly overwhelming flavor wise. I was just saying 10% Munich malt would give you a similar bready flavor but at a more reasonable level. And the 17% roasted may be a bit overwhelming as well.

The carapils will give you dextrins and a thicker mouthfeel, but it won't give you any caramel sweetness that you would get from a darker crystal malt like crystal 40 or 80 or something. I would want that caramel sweetness in a sweet stout.

Please do rip on it, there's no point asking for criticism if no-one points out any faults in my rationale.
My purpose with going overboard with the specialty malts is to provide as many unfermentable sugars as possible, but I guess I neglected how the "roasted" part would affect the flavor profile.

I would use more base malt, and lower the specialty grains by quite a bit.

I don't love chocolate malt, and find it a bit harsh in large amounts, so I'd definitely cut that- alot! I'd probably go with pale chocolate if you could find it, and in a much smaller amount- like 5%, and increase the black malt a bit for the typical "stout" taste without going too acrid or harsh.

You don't need any carapils at all, let alone nearly 10% (!) but some medium to dark crystal would be awesome in it, to "round" the flavors of the roasted malts and to bring a bit of sweetness to the beer- say 7-8% crystal 60L or 80L.

I'd definitely ditch the biscuit malt in this. While I love what it brings to some beers, in a stout that is already going to have some dryness to it from the roasted malts, it'll make it feel even drier and push the roasted malts towards astringency.

There isn't any "sweetness" at all in the recipe as written- it looks astringent, harsh and dry. I hate to rip on it, but it sounds like it's totally opposite of what you're hoping to achieve.

How about this?

Aiming at 5 gallons:

Maris Otter - 60%: Basic malt, for the English-ness of it
Munich - 22%: For the enzymes and the more subtle bread flavor
Caramel 80 - 10%: For sweetness
Chocolate - 3%: For color and a hint of chocolate
Flaked oats - 3%: Mouthfeel and proteins
Black- 2%: For the color
Lactose - 3% of total pre-boil wort weight: Sweetness

Hops: KG for 60min (low alpha, flowery) % Cascade for 10min (flowers and spices)
Yeast: WLP002 (low attenuation)

I think I'll just add more sugar at bottling to deal with the head retention issues I'm always having.

 

[lazysunday]

How about this?

Aiming at 5 gallons:

Maris Otter - 60%: Basic malt, for the English-ness of it
Munich - 22%: For the enzymes and the more subtle bread flavor
Caramel 80 - 10%: For sweetness
Chocolate - 3%: For color and a hint of chocolate
Flaked oats - 3%: Mouthfeel and proteins
Black- 2%: For the color
Lactose - 3% of total pre-boil wort weight: Sweetness

Hops: KG for 60min (low alpha, flowery) % Cascade for 10min (flowers and spices)
Yeast: WLP002 (low attenuation)

I think I'll just add more sugar at bottling to deal with the head retention issues I'm always having.

In my opinion, you may want to consider alternative hops. Especially for your schedule (which I think is good).

For example, you may want to use a more "traditional stout" as your bittering hop, something like a Fuggle (U.K., Willamette, U.S.) It tends to lend a balanced bitterness without any extra characteristics (flowery, potent). Regarding your aroma hop, you might want to look at a Golding, which balances really well with more 'bready' malts like your oats, chocolate, and the toffee notes of the Munich. Especially since Munich is so high in your profile.

Just my advice. I think the Golding as the bittering hop may produce more citrus flavors than you want the longer it sits. And the cascade may overwhelm the nose of the beer, which would negatively contrast what you're going for with your sweet stout.

Again, just my opinion. If you're looking for a more citrusy, flowery flavor profile then i think you're spot on, and your schedule looks good.

Either way, let us know how it drinks when you're done!

 

[m00ps]

The malt bill looks good. You may need to bump up the black malt by another oz or two to get a real dark stout. Roasted Barley also works great instead if you can find it. Great roasty aromas.

I think the cascade might be a bit out of place in a roasted stout. The only black beers ive ever seen it in are black IPAs. It's citrus aromas will detract/clash with the roastiness you are trying to get. You'll want mellow noble-ish hops that are earthy/spicy. EKG is great I also will use Fuggles, Styrian Golding, Cluster, Willamette, Mt Hood, Crystal, Liberty, Perle, etc

But be careful blindly adding more sugar at bottling. You dont want bottle bombs. Plus more carbonation does not equal head retention. Try 4oz carapils - It works every time to aid head retention and give slightly more body without adding flavor. It was like designed for that purpose

 

[Yooper]

I think I'll just add more sugar at bottling to deal with the head retention issues I'm always having.

If you're having head retention issues, use .5-1 pound of flaked barley in this stout. Trust me- it's my "secret" ingredient for my oatmeal stout. It gives great mouthfeel, and a nice rocky head with great retention.

I like your modified grainbill much better! I love Munich malt, but I think that maris otter is just better in a stout with the bready richness so I'd use all MO for the base malt and use Munich malt in something else in the future where you want the grainbill to scream "malty" and not so much "rich", if that makes sense.

I am not a sweet person, well I mean I don't like sweet beers anyway, but I'd probably use a pound of lactose if you want a sweet-ish finish to the beer. Don't be afraid to get the color and flavor of the roasted/dark malts, as long as you have the crystal malt to balance it.

Oats are great, as they provide a slickness to the beer from the oils in them so most people perceive that as "creamy".

My oatmeal stout is NOT sweet, but here is my grainbill to give you an idea of what I like:
7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 63.64 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
12.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
10.0 oz Chocolate malt (pale) (200.0 SRM) Grain 5.68 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %
2.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 31.6 IBU
1 Pkgs British Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1335)
__________________________________________________

Anyway, I also wanted to mention the hops. I would definitely not use cascade late in the boil, as much as I love cascade hops. Cascade hops are grapefruit in a big way in flavor, not flowery or spicy. The citrus flavor would be very odd in a sweet stout with the roasty flavors and residual sweetness. I'd leave that out.

 

[peterj]

How about this?

Aiming at 5 gallons:

Maris Otter - 60%: Basic malt, for the English-ness of it
Munich - 22%: For the enzymes and the more subtle bread flavor
Caramel 80 - 10%: For sweetness
Chocolate - 3%: For color and a hint of chocolate
Flaked oats - 3%: Mouthfeel and proteins
Black- 2%: For the color
Lactose - 3% of total pre-boil wort weight: Sweetness

Hops: KG for 60min (low alpha, flowery) % Cascade for 10min (flowers and spices)
Yeast: WLP002 (low attenuation)

I think I'll just add more sugar at bottling to deal with the head retention issues I'm always having.

I agree with what others have said about not using the cascade. I think Kent Goldings are a great choice though. As would be fuggle, Willamette, etc.

Also, I think you definitely cut the roasted malts way too much. 5% roasted is not enough for a stout at all. You're more in the brown ale range right now. I put it in a recipe calculator and ended up with only about 28 SRM. I would leave the chocolate where it is and maybe move the Black Malt up to around 7%.

I also agree about the Munich. I don't think you need that much in this recipe. Maris Otter has a nice bready character to it. But I'm sure it would still be very good with the Munich.

 

[syd138]

I did a Milk Stout awhile back. I used about .5lbs Chocolate and about .75 Black.

Then about 1lb of Lactose.

This was for a 5.5 gallon batch

 

[EvanMyl]

Thanks for the tips!
I have to say, though, I'm really surprised by the grain bill you have here. If Maris Otter has enough enzymes for itself and all the other grains at just 63%, that gives me more leeway. I had bumped my basic malts to 82%, thinking MO by itself wouldn't be enough.

If you're having head retention issues, use .5-1 pound of flaked barley in this stout. Trust me- it's my "secret" ingredient for my oatmeal stout. It gives great mouthfeel, and a nice rocky head with great retention.

I like your modified grainbill much better! I love Munich malt, but I think that maris otter is just better in a stout with the bready richness so I'd use all MO for the base malt and use Munich malt in something else in the future where you want the grainbill to scream "malty" and not so much "rich", if that makes sense.

I am not a sweet person, well I mean I don't like sweet beers anyway, but I'd probably use a pound of lactose if you want a sweet-ish finish to the beer. Don't be afraid to get the color and flavor of the roasted/dark malts, as long as you have the crystal malt to balance it.

Oats are great, as they provide a slickness to the beer from the oils in them so most people perceive that as "creamy".

My oatmeal stout is NOT sweet, but here is my grainbill to give you an idea of what I like:
7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 63.64 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
12.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
10.0 oz Chocolate malt (pale) (200.0 SRM) Grain 5.68 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %
2.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 31.6 IBU
1 Pkgs British Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1335)
__________________________________________________

Anyway, I also wanted to mention the hops. I would definitely not use cascade late in the boil, as much as I love cascade hops. Cascade hops are grapefruit in a big way in flavor, not flowery or spicy. The citrus flavor would be very odd in a sweet stout with the roasty flavors and residual sweetness. I'd leave that out.

 

[JKaranka]

Consider Brown malt for something with no diastatic power that definitively goes in a stout. At large amounts it gives a cakey, malty, toast, sweetish and roast profile. It's often used around 5-15% of the grist but it has been used as far as 30% of the grist. It's pretty much the ingredient that set the traditional sweeter London stouts apart from the more modern and drier Irish stouts.

 

[Yooper]

Consider Brown malt for something with no diastatic power that definitively goes in a stout. At large amounts it gives a cakey, malty, toast, sweetish and roast profile. It's often used around 5-15% of the grist but it has been used as far as 30% of the grist. It's pretty much the ingredient that set the traditional sweeter London stouts apart from the more modern and drier Irish stouts.

I've never seen brown malt in a stout, but I use it all the time for my porter. It's very nice!

 

[JKaranka]

Yooper: I followed a 1952 record of Whitbread extra stout and it's smooth and delicious. No roast barley or black malt, but, instead brown malt, chocolate malt and dark invert. Tastes very smooth and and chocolaty, I can really see why it was made by a large commercial brewer.

 

[Hanglow]

I was going to suggest the original mackesons recipe but I didn't realise it was owned by whitbread

It's on my to brew list, worth doing then?

 

[EvanMyl]

I ended up using this recipe;
Maris Otter 64%
Chocolate 4.5%
Black 4.5%
Oats 6%
Caramel 15%
Flaked Barley 6%
plus 7.5% of the total grain weight in lactose.
Used 70gr of Williamette/5.2% in a 5 gallon brew.

I bottled a few days ago, so far it definitely is sweet and full-bodied (OG was 1080, FG 1040). 5.5% ABV, which is not bad, but I was expecting more from the WLP002 that I used and that heavy-ish grain bill (I'm sure I could have coaxed more alcohol had I been more experienced).

Not being done yet, here are a couple of observations;
I got a sweet tooth, so my results so far are definitely pleasant to me. However, it's bordering on syrup-y. Either I should cut on the lactose, or increase the fermentable sugar percentage.

I'll report back soon as the beer is done with more impressions.

 

[peterj]

Wow, 1.040 is really high. Does the 1.080 OG include the lactose? And how much lactose did you actually add (like in pounds)? 1 lb will add about 8 points to a 5 gallon beer.

And, 15% caramel malt is kind of a lot. Cutting that back to 5-10% max would help bring the sweetness down a lot.

Also, WLP002 isn't known for high attenuation levels. You could try a more attenuative British strain next time like WLP007 or Nottingham or something.

 

[EvanMyl]

1.080 includes the lactose, I put it in the beginning of the boil, 1lb of it.
I wanted to get something very sweet, hence the caramel malt and the WLP002 (which is known for very low attenuation levels, around 70%). I also played with high mashing temperatures to leave as many unfermentable sugars as possible.

Definitely not a brew for everyone, but I wanted to achieve a really sweet dark beer as a starting point for other things (chocolate stout, etc).

Wow, 1.040 is really high. Does the 1.080 OG include the lactose? And how much lactose did you actually add (like in pounds)? 1 lb will add about 8 points to a 5 gallon beer.

And, 15% caramel malt is kind of a lot. Cutting that back to 5-10% max would help bring the sweetness down a lot.

Also, WLP002 isn't known for high attenuation levels. You could try a more attenuative British strain next time like WLP007 or Nottingham or something.

 

[JKaranka]

Well, the guy's bet on a recipe so I just want to see what the tasting is like. Kudos for giving it a go.

 

[EvanMyl]

I'm very satisfied with how this turned out!

Very pleasant full body, the sweetness and caramel flavors have become more subtle during conditioning and have merged well. The hop profile isn't very prominent, but that wouldn't be the point anyway. Just the right amount of bitterness and probably the best head I've achieved (thanks JKaranka for the tips).

I've given a few bottles out, also to some experienced brewers, and people have given positive feedback. Only complaint was that it was too calorie-heavy

Definitely making this again.