Super light blonde color for IPA

[leesmith]

So he says... In many many many many words. If this is the case then what is the point of ATC in the first place?

I trust Ajdelange's advice on using a ph meter. He did write the forward for the book Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski and I believe provide advice on that text also.

Below is my take away from reading Ajdelange's sticky and other sources provided in the article http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/PH_Meter. ATC provides a small compensation when testing a sample at the temperature the ph meter was calibrated at. So if it was calibrated at 20c and the sample has been cooled to 21c the meter will adjust. Most of these sources state that taking readings in mash temperature wort is bad for the meter and all texts written on beer ph should provide ph readings taken at room temperature.

I know I'm getting wordy here but Ajdelange explains the effects of temperature on ph very simply in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=518131.

In his 02-27-2015, 01:20 PM reply in the thread above AjDelange says, "Higher temperature implies higher pH so that your 5.25 at mash temp might be about 5.5 at room temp."


I know this picture is dramatic but Kai Troester's experimants in the post http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing show the effects of ph on beer color:

 

[m1k3]

That looks and sounds delicious. I have a bunch of Citra and Mosaic to use, how did it turn out?

It's a great a great beer! I made it two months ago so the Citra dry hop is not as intense as it was 30 days ago.

I made a 15 gallon batch with 10# of Pilsner Malt per 5 gallons.
Two batches were Lagers (34/70 yeast and one was US-05)
The US-05 split is the one that got the 4oz of Citra Dry Hop (in primary at the end of fermentation)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 19.16 gal
Post Boil Volume: 17.16 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 15.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 14.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 3.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 40.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 79.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 1.6 % (not required)
30 lbs Pilsner (Schill) (1.7L Grain) 2 98.4 %
1.50 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil Hop 3 24.8 IBUs
1 Item Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil Fining 4 -
3.80 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.3%AA Hop 5 12.9 IBUs
3.80 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.3%AA Hop 6 2.4 IBUs
2.0 pkg Saflager Lager 34/70 7 -
1.0 pkg Safale American US-05 8 -
4.00 oz Citra [12.0%AA] - Dry Hop 9 0.0 IBUs

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 30 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 10.53 gal of water 154.5 F 60 min

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I trust Ajdelange's advice on using a ph meter. He did write the forward for the book Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski and I believe provide advice on that text also.

Below is my take away from reading Ajdelange's sticky and other sources provided in the article http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/PH_Meter. ATC provides a small compensation when testing a sample at the temperature the ph meter was calibrated at. So if it was calibrated at 20c and the sample has been cooled to 21c the meter will adjust. Most of these sources state that taking readings in mash temperature wort is bad for the meter and all texts written on beer ph should provide ph readings taken at room temperature.

I know I'm getting wordy here but Ajdelange explains the effects of temperature on ph very simply in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=518131.

In his 02-27-2015, 01:20 PM reply in the thread above AjDelange says, "Higher temperature implies higher pH so that your 5.25 at mash temp might be about 5.5 at room temp."


I know this picture is dramatic but Kai Troester's experimants in the post http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing show the effects of ph on beer color:

Thanks for all the info! Looking through it now.

 

[leesmith]

Any update or findings here?

 

[Yooper]

I'm pretty sure after all the talk it's going to be a combination of getting raising my efficiency, controlling a hot rapid boil, and utilizing lighter malts... Specifically malted oats which I know the beers I'm drinking from TH are using

No, I'd stop using the EZ water spreadsheet first, as for me it's always been not even close to the actual mash pH. Try Brewer's Friend or Bru'nwater to compare the projected pH. The meter is suspect as well, if the readings are not taken at under 80 degrees or so. Cool your sample first, then take the reading. I use a small shot glass, and put it in a bigger glass of ice water while I stir, and the sample cools to 75 degrees in just about 2 minutes so it doesn't take long.

Your boil off rate seems exceedingly high. That is likely the cause of so many maillard (darkening) reactions. A rolling boil is good, but it doesn't have to jump out of the pot. A boil off of 1-1.5 gallons per hour is a good benchmark, unless you live in the desert where the dry climate would cause more boil off.

Plain US 2-row as an SRM of about 2, so it's definitely light enough to get a blonde beer.

 

[leesmith]

Post boil of the hop hands recipe. This is a 7.5 gallon kettle which I'm
Upgrading to a 15 gallon later this month (anything to do with it??). Also I collect about 6.5 into the kettle which is pretty close to the top and you can see where I ended up there. And that includes the displacement with the chiller submerged also

Have you measured your boil off rate?

 

[303Dan]

My bet is on pH. I've read more than a few articles that indicate malliard reactions are stronger at higher pH levels. The fact that you're measuring your pH without cooling the samples first may contribute to those measurements being inaccurate, in combination with an aggressive boil, could definitely lead to darker than predicated SRM in your beer. Just my 2 cents. I get those very light straw colored IPA's regularly, even with some small amounts of specialty malts. Generally, what Beersmith spits out as my predicted SRM is spot on.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Sorry, didn't read all 7 pages, but did you find the recipe you're looking for? I made this pale ale a couple weeks ago, forgot the grain bill/hop schedule but I can send it to you later if interested (abv was ~5.5% and IBU's was ~45):

 

[grassfeeder]

2 row, white wheat and "flaked" oats has always given me super light color. Hell, I've even added C20 and received Trillium and Treehouse like coloring.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Brewed last weekend and really controlled the temp to an easy boil but a boil none the less. I also collected all but 7 gallons into my 7.5 gallon kettle which is where I was screwing up in the past too. I was scared to collect too much wort from the mash for boil overs but I'll have a larger pot as of tomorrow.

And to put the pH thing to rest, EZ water has been nothing but gold for me up till now. The calculations have been right on Secondly regarding the temp correct for the meter... I measured the pH with the meter at like 10 different temps per collection ranging from 150F to 70F and my pH readings were identical across each temperature.

I'm very confident this ones gonna come out nice and light. It's +\- 5% abv from a malt bill of 60/40 2row and white wheat. My fermenter actually has the appropriate volume this time as well instead of a concentrated volume where I didn't collect enough from the sparge.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Sorry, didn't read all 7 pages, but did you find the recipe you're looking for? I made this pale ale a couple weeks ago, forgot the grain bill/hop schedule but I can send it to you later if interested (abv was ~5.5% and IBU's was ~45):

That's definitely the color I'm looking for. Send over the recipe

 

[grassfeeder]

this is 13# 2-row with 1.5# pounds of white wheat, 1.5# of flaked oats, and .5# C20, 1# of carapils and .75# of dextrose. mash was 5.2-3 ph

 

[Little_Lebowski]

this is 13# 2-row with 1.5# pounds of white wheat, 1.5# of flaked oats, and .5# C20, 1# of carapils and .75# of dextrose. mash was 5.2-3 ph

Not quite what I'm after. It's a bit murky and more on the orangish brown side, which to this point I've had zero trouble getting to this color. That yellow up above on the previous post is right what I'm looking for

 

[crusader1612]

Not quite what I'm after. It's a bit murky and more on the orangish brown side, which to this point I've had zero trouble getting to this color. That yellow up above on the previous post is right what I'm looking for

Check out this: Its on my list of beers to brew.
If it was me go 80/20 Pilsner/Wheat to 1064
Removing any form of specialty malts malts it'll stay nice and pale, and nice and dry as well (depending on mash temp).

 

[Upthewazzu]

That's definitely the color I'm looking for. Send over the recipe

9.5lb Pale 2-row
1lb white wheat
1lb vienna
1.25oz centennial @60
1oz simcoe @5
.75oz centennial @1
1oz Mosaic dry hop
1oz Centennial dry hop
Wyeast 1332 Northwest Ale w/1.2L starter
OG:1.053
FG: 1.011
ABV: 5.5%
SRM: 4.2
IBU: 43.3

Mash @150
I do a low boil, almost a simmer for 60 min.
Fermented very warm @ 72°F for one day, then lowered to 68°F for 9 days.
Dry hopped for 5 days.

It's ridiculously good.

 

[grassfeeder]

Not quite what I'm after. It's a bit murky and more on the orangish brown side, which to this point I've had zero trouble getting to this color. That yellow up above on the previous post is right what I'm looking for

true, but mind you I used C20 in that recipe with 007 white labs. if you strip those two out it would have been that color. Also, iPhone camera at night doesn't help.

 

[leesmith]

Brewed last weekend and really controlled the temp to an easy boil but a boil none the less. I also collected all but 7 gallons into my 7.5 gallon kettle which is where I was screwing up in the past too. I was scared to collect too much wort from the mash for boil overs but I'll have a larger pot as of tomorrow.

And to put the pH thing to rest, EZ water has been nothing but gold for me up till now. The calculations have been right on Secondly regarding the temp correct for the meter... I measured the pH with the meter at like 10 different temps per collection ranging from 150F to 70F and my pH readings were identical across each temperature.

I'm very confident this ones gonna come out nice and light. It's +\- 5% abv from a malt bill of 60/40 2row and white wheat. My fermenter actually has the appropriate volume this time as well instead of a concentrated volume where I didn't collect enough from the sparge.

Hope it works out. Looks like you got your volume issue resolved.
Please post some pictures or update when it's ready.

Also, what make and model ph meter do you own?

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Hope it works out. Looks like you got your volume issue resolved.
Please post some pictures or update when it's ready.

Also, what make and model ph meter do you own?

This one right here from thermoworks. Use their thermopop too and I can't believe I used to brew without either of them. They've both been fantastic so far.

Been a week in the fermenter and I can already tell it's gonna be a light one Going to brew a recipe I just read in craft beer and brewing next week which calls for pils 2row and wheat in that order with all citra hops. It's supposed to be like a Berliner IPA sorta thing. Sounded really tasty. Guessing it also has the potential to be pretty darn light too

I'm crossing my fingers that the formula for keeping these beers light are limiting the mailard reaction and boil off, keeping my volumes up to the desired levels: if I'm not getting my full volumes I'm actually getting a concentrated wort with the ratio of sugars to water higher then calculated and hence darker wort. This also falls under my efficiency issues as well. I've been using the blichmann floating sparge arm for 2-3 years now but lately I just seem to be missing the mark with my gravity. I've even slowed my sparge down as slow as I can go for about a 30 min fly sparge. I'm tempted to switch back to batch sparging next week.

 

[leesmith]

This one right here from thermoworks. Use their thermopop too and I can't believe I used to brew without either of them. They've both been fantastic so far.

Been a week in the fermenter and I can already tell it's gonna be a light one Going to brew a recipe I just read in craft beer and brewing next week which calls for pils 2row and wheat in that order with all citra hops. It's supposed to be like a Berliner IPA sorta thing. Sounded really tasty. Guessing it also has the potential to be pretty darn light too

I'm crossing my fingers that the formula for keeping these beers light are limiting the mailard reaction and boil off, keeping my volumes up to the desired levels: if I'm not getting my full volumes I'm actually getting a concentrated wort with the ratio of sugars to water higher then calculated and hence darker wort. This also falls under my efficiency issues as well. I've been using the blichmann floating sparge arm for 2-3 years now but lately I just seem to be missing the mark with my gravity. I've even slowed my sparge down as slow as I can go for about a 30 min fly sparge. I'm tempted to switch back to batch sparging next week.

Link to the ph meter didn't come through. I didn't know thermoworks made ph meters. Great company.

Sounds like your excited about this brew!

 

[kh54s10]

I think you are now on the right track. IMO it has little to do with your pH. (I have been brewing for 5 years and have yet to take a pH measurement.) It was that you didn't collect enough wort for the preboil amount, then you were boiling too vigorously and ending up with too little wort that was darkened by both, 1) not enough wort and 2) too hot a boil.

I have read more that a very vigorous boil is NOT necessary. If you have to drive off DMS it is usually done with a longer boil. It usually is only an issue when using pilsner malts. If you do a longer boil you will have to collect more wort to account for the longer boil off.

I think your problems will diminish greatly when you can boil in a larger pot.

 

[Upthewazzu]

FWIW, my boils are barely even boiling. Never ever had an issue with DMS.

 

[leesmith]

Earlier we were talking about vigorous boils and the +/- of them... Check out the video a couple posts down in this thread and tell me if you guys consider it to be vigorous or too vigorous or just right or what. I'll tell you for sure mine is not rolling that rapid at all. Somewhere smack in between simmering bubbles that what you see in the video is how I set mine

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=345229

The one in the video is strong. If your boil is/was in between the video one and a simmer then you're probably fine. If your wort is the right gravity going into the boil and you hit your gravity at the end of the boil then volume does not matter. If you do a one 1 gallon batch, 2.5 gallon batch and a 5 gallon batch of the same gravity wort and hit your final gravity in the same amount of time, your color in all three batches will be similar. If you're gravely over shooting your final gravity then I would worry about color; a point or two above or below isn't adding a major color contribution.

So, I guess my question is are you or were you hitting your target gravity on all those previous brews?

 

[Weezy]

77% US pale 2-row
3% carafoam
5% sugar
15% flaked rice

Will be quite light.

Here, ill put it this way:
3-5% carafoam
15-25% flaked rice
5-10% sugar adjust % to get to abv
The rest pale malt

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Whoops never linked the picture

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Got the new kettle in today. And to answer the efficiency question, my numbers looked good coming out of the boil but I need to work on improving my efficiency post sparge. The first runnings look good but I'm not getting great results with the fly sparge set up.

Moving on up from that confined 7.5 gallon blichmann to the 10 gallon spike. Couldn't believe the size difference in just that 2.5 gallons

 

[saltymirv]

Whoops never linked the picture

This also tells you if your wife is pregnant

 

[Little_Lebowski]

So here we are... First Sample out of the fermenter and going into the keg later tonight as I'm certainly satisfied with the outcome. As the goal of this project was to get my light color I'm definitely on the right track. The beer to the right is my current recipe which I'll post below and the one on the left is a piney DIPA with 2row/white wheat/marris otter for a color reference.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

OG: 1.048
FG: 1.005
ABV: 5.8%
~ 5-5.5 gallon in the fermenter
~ 4.5-5 gallon kegged

6# western pale malt
6# white wheat
~1# rice hulls

60 min mash @149-150

60 min boil:
.5 oz Columbus FWH
.5 oz Amarillo @ 5 min
.5 oz Centennial @ 5 min
.5 oz Simcoe @ 5 min
.5 oz Columbus @ FO (20 min rest)
.5 oz Amarillo @ FO
.5 oz Centennial @ FO
.5 oz Simcoe @ FO
2 oz Amarillo @ 170F whirlpool (20 min)
2 oz Centennial @ whirlpool
2 oz Simcoe @ whirlpool
2 oz Simcoe @ dry hop (day 4 into primary as ferm was finishing)
2 oz Amarillo @ dry hop ( day 7-11 )
2 oz Centennial @ dry hop ( day 7-11 )

Racked to keg on day 11 to carb and cold crash to be ready by day 14-21 mark.

Gigayeast Vermont IPA (conan) 1.5 L starter
60 sec pure O2 prior to pitch
63F days 1-4
66F days 4-6
68F for remainder of dry hopping

Water profile using EZ Water and 100% RO water
128 Ca
11 Mg
85 Cl
240 SO4
3 mL 88% lactic acid to get mash pH in the 5.2 range

 

[grassfeeder]

that sounds lovely....

 

[Little_Lebowski]

So... First taste and I couldn't be happier. It's definitely an easy drinker with little to no bitterness at all. 1000x closer to HopHands than the clone I brewed a few months ago on this forum. This time with the increased hop amounts if definitely hits on aroma and flavor as well as a seriously muted malt presence. The Simcoe is a real late surprise on the palate and is very subtle but pleasant to wait for. Easily a rebrew for me and surely I'll be adding this recipe into my box labeled "tried and true."

Ps. The big ball shaped HF glass makes it look a little darker than it is because of the volume in that glass but I'll try and post a pic from a narrower pint glass to show how light it really is.