Suicide is an ugly, cowardly thing to do.

[corkybstewart]

About 10 years ago our local high school had a long string of suicides, probably 6 in just a few months, and the school got word of a mass suicide scheduled to take place at school so they closed it for several days. My daughter and son were personal friends with most of the kids, my wife and I knew most of them from athletics and band. My kids went to the first 3 or 4 funerals, after that they just couldn't do it anymore.There was no obvious mental illness among the kids I knew, one day they were living and loving life as high school juniors and seniors, the next they were dead. Last month a friend's 15 year old son killed himself for no apparent reason. 15 years ago a friend's 14 year old daughter killed herself because she got her very first C grade on a paper and she decided she was a failure, too stupid to keep living.

I've never known an adult who committed suicide, I'm sure they have "better" reasons, but I'll never understand how things could be so bad for a teenager that death is the only way out. Maybe it's because we live in a small town where everybody knows everybody, but it seems like suicide has become the answer to all of life's little speed bumps. These suicides have destroyed families, the suicide of a child is something that parents and siblings never recover from.

 

[whoaru99]

There was no obvious mental illness among the kids I knew, one day they were living and loving life as high school juniors and seniors, the next they were dead.

Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much, or maybe not enough, but there seems to be some sort of issue going on upstairs if a bunch of kids were planning mass suicide, committing suicide because of a C grade, etc.

Mental illness isn't always in your face, per se.

 

[Hang Glider]

I know I didn't say anything to anybody until after I had made the decision to refrain from killing myself. Walking that knife edge between the amount of pain you would choose not to tolerate if you had the choice, and the amount you can tolerate, sucks donkey balls.

When your stuck there it's odd. You don't do anything that is high risk or anything. You're just kinda disappointed when something that might have killed you didn't.

I remember spinning out driving to work in my truck. I wasn't driving recklessly or even aggressively. I just hit a patch of black ice. Even while I was trying to regain control I was hoping I would flip my truck or something and break my neck. I remember being disappointed when nothing really happened. I pulled my truck back onto the road with no damage, I wasn't even late for work.

It was kinda like checking the numbers on your lottery ticket when none of them match. Not a surprise, but a little disappointing.

You see, if I had died accidentally then I wasn't breaking my word. I wouldn't be responsible for the thing that ended my life.

That's a very odd emotional state. When you can't conceive of anything more painful then continuing to live, it isn't possible for anything to scare you. You do have to think more. All of your normal instincts for self preservation are shut down. If you don't fill that gap with your mind, then you could end up dead anyway. Not because you are actually trying to kill yourself, but because the normal instinct that would have saved your life isn't working.

almost exactly how I felt when my gf walked out the week before Christmas. It's not that you're thinking of the others you might leave behind, it's really about how much more pain you think you can tolerate. I'm sure it looks very selfish, but doesn't feel selfish. A bad bad storm came thru - I could hear the trees creaking badly, and I just wished I would be in the correct room when it came thru the roof...alas...

(better now...time, you know...)

 

[saramc]

Unless you have actually dealt with the horrid, disabling conditions that mental illness brings forward you should not speak on this. Even as a friend or family member you do not know. For most who actually attempt suicide they are at the bottom rung, off the ladder...and for many it is the final call for help assuming they survive. The signs have been there, and many are/had been in treatment. Usually the individual is not thinking about anyone else at that time, they just are done. Get educated, individuals with mental illness do nothing to ask for the condition. It is a hard road to come back from, and usually lifelong and these individuals need your support.

 

[rs4life]

Unless you have actually dealt with the horrid, disabling conditions that mental illness brings forward you should not speak on this. Even as a friend or family member you do not know. For most who actually attempt suicide they are at the bottom rung, off the ladder...and for many it is the final call for help assuming they survive. The signs have been there, and many are/had been in treatment. Usually the individual is not thinking about anyone else at that time, they just are done. Get educated, individuals with mental illness do nothing to ask for the condition. It is a hard road to come back from, and usually lifelong and these individuals need your support.

Exactly

 

[wolfstar]

Unless you have actually dealt with the horrid, disabling conditions that mental illness brings forward you should not speak on this. Even as a friend or family member you do not know. For most who actually attempt suicide they are at the bottom rung, off the ladder...and for many it is the final call for help assuming they survive. The signs have been there, and many are/had been in treatment. Usually the individual is not thinking about anyone else at that time, they just are done. Get educated, individuals with mental illness do nothing to ask for the condition. It is a hard road to come back from, and usually lifelong and these individuals need your support.

Word...

I lost several freinds from suicide over the years. It's not cowardly...it's a sickness. With the sickness you are blind to the feelings of others, drowned in wanting to just get way from it all.

 

[Dan]

Unless you have actually dealt with the horrid, disabling conditions that mental illness brings forward you should not speak on this. Even as a friend or family member you do not know. For most who actually attempt suicide they are at the bottom rung, off the ladder...and for many it is the final call for help assuming they survive. The signs have been there, and many are/had been in treatment. Usually the individual is not thinking about anyone else at that time, they just are done. Get educated, individuals with mental illness do nothing to ask for the condition. It is a hard road to come back from, and usually lifelong and these individuals need your support.

I don't believe many would argue your reasoning. Sounds like you have some experience dealing with suicidal people.

Just MY stance, and means nothing. Suicidal people are not easily understood. Whether it be in the life they live and are lost in or by the mourners who see them buried.

Been a question I have wanted to ask since this thread got started. How about honor? Culture? I'm talking otb here but didn't Japanese Samuris consider suicide more honorable than defeat? The men who crashed their planes into Pearl Harbor were on a suicide mission. I don't believe any of them had a choice. It was dictated by some wacked out form of honor.

But when a person with no "honorable" reason takes their own life. I'm not always sure it is mental illness or a loss of the need to live life.

I have thought in my worst times about suicide, but never would do it. To selfish, very selfish.

Man, now that I re-read my post I'm not sure if you have a better point about mental illness than just emotional reaction. Most of us control our emotions to an extent. I truly believe anybody that commits suicide is mentally and emotionally drained, and it becomes there only end.

I'm not huge on any one or anther denominational faith. I was brought up Christian in a Presbeterian denomination. I'm not really a presby any more and rarely go to church. Would probably be better if I was. I think the Catholics are on to something though. Near immediate forgiveness. Confess and repent and all is good. But that's not my point. Believing in something good, having some basic rules enforced, and being surrounded by people who care makes a difference. That's my opinion and any one of them taken to an extreme could be damaging.

This post is not about religion.

I've pretty much lost my train of thought in this point of my ramblings. Suicide sucks. Any of us would stop another person from doing it, if we knew how.

All I can do as a person is try to be a good person to others and maybe recognize when they are having a hard time. Try to help them, be a friend, make tough calls if needed to drag them out of their tough times.

Smurf... if a person can't at least do that for their brother man/ sister. The world will fall apart faster than it is now.

 

[rs4life]

I can say that having been suicidal before it has made me have the mentality that i would try and save someones life with no regard for my own.

 

[bottlebomber]

Unless you have actually dealt with the horrid, disabling conditions that mental illness brings forward you should not speak on this. Even as a friend or family member you do not know. For most who actually attempt suicide they are at the bottom rung, off the ladder...and for many it is the final call for help assuming they survive. The signs have been there, and many are/had been in treatment. Usually the individual is not thinking about anyone else at that time, they just are done. Get educated, individuals with mental illness do nothing to ask for the condition. It is a hard road to come back from, and usually lifelong and these individuals need your support.

I think most people who have posted in the thread agree with your stance. I don't feel that not having direct experience with what you've described disqualifies someone from posting though, since even posting in with an ignorant comment will subscribe you to the thread and expose inexperienced ones to other people who have experienced grief and loss. Overall I don't think many would disagree.

I think the Catholics are on to something though. Near immediate forgiveness. Confess and repent and all is good. But that's not my point. Believing in something good, having some basic rules enforced, and being surrounded by people who care makes a difference. That's my opinion and any one of them taken to an extreme could be damaging.

This post is not about religion.

This post is about religion. but it's all good. It's more about thinking out loud.

 

[bottlebomber]

Unless you have actually dealt with the horrid, disabling conditions that mental illness brings forward you should not speak on this. Even as a friend or family member you do not know. For most who actually attempt suicide they are at the bottom rung, off the ladder...and for many it is the final call for help assuming they survive. The signs have been there, and many are/had been in treatment. Usually the individual is not thinking about anyone else at that time, they just are done. Get educated, individuals with mental illness do nothing to ask for the condition. It is a hard road to come back from, and usually lifelong and these individuals need your support.

I think most people who have posted in the thread agree with your stance. I don't feel that not having direct experience with what you've described disqualifies someone from posting though, since even posting in with an ignorant comment will subscribe you to the thread and expose inexperienced ones to other people who have experienced grief and loss. Overall I don't think many would disagree.

I think the Catholics are on to something though. Near immediate forgiveness. Confess and repent and all is good. But that's not my point. Believing in something good, having some basic rules enforced, and being surrounded by people who care makes a difference. That's my opinion and any one of them taken to an extreme could be damaging.

This post is not about religion.

This post is about religion. but it's all good. It's more about thinking out loud.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Sorry for the horrendously insensitive thread hijack, but what would be the community's thoughts if a child molester killed themself before taking part in an act of molestation? Or if Adam Lanza killed himself before doing what he did? How many suicides actually prevent harm to others?

Again, sorry for being morbid, but this is a serious question I've always thought about.

 

[Dan]

Double post.. BB. Dont know why that happens but it does.

 

[Dan]

Sorry for the horrendously insensitive thread hijack, but what would be the community's thoughts if a child molester killed themself before taking part in an act of molestation? Or if Adam Lanza killed himself before doing what he did? How many suicides actually prevent harm to others?

Again, sorry for being morbid, but this is a serious question I've always thought about.

I was with you on the first sentence. Second one have no idea who you are talking about.

So, I'll reply to the first sentence.

I hope he does. There are limits to forgiveness. Child molestation is not one of them. Only my opinion but it won't change.

 

[whoaru99]

Sorry for the horrendously insensitive thread hijack, but what would be the community's thoughts if a child molester killed themself before taking part in an act of molestation? Or if Adam Lanza killed himself before doing what he did? How many suicides actually prevent harm to others?

Again, sorry for being morbid, but this is a serious question I've always thought about.

I would prefer they got the help they needed. Reprehensible as it may seem even folks like this likely have family and maybe even friends that would be left behind.

As far as how many prevented harm to others? I think it's impossible to know, but I'd speculate not many.

 

[Dan]

Okay, Who...99, has a godly point. I'm not sure I"m that good of a person though.

 

[sudsmcgee]

I would prefer they got the help they needed. Reprehensible as it may seem even folks like this likely have family and maybe even friends that would be left behind.

As far as how many prevented harm to others? I think it's impossible to know, but I'd speculate not many.

The part that makes me wonder about this is: How many people are truly mentally unstable and have uncontrolled perverse desires but also know that their desires are wrong and unethical but they can't stop them? How does one receive treatment for innate desire that cannot be suppressed? It's like trying to teach a normal man to be celibate. I have to imagine that such people with simultaneous strong morals and desires see no end BUT suicide.

 

[sudsmcgee]

I was with you on the first sentence. Second one have no idea who you are talking about.

So, I'll reply to the first sentence.

I hope he does. There are limits to forgiveness. Child molestation is not one of them. Only my opinion but it won't change.

Sorry for not being clear. My point was that often mass murderers kill people and end up ultimately killing themselves. Often times the community responds with comments like "I wish they would have just started their shooting spree with themself", meaning that if they did, everyone else would still be alive.

 

[Dan]

Suds, just wondering, are you a lawyer?

 

[sudsmcgee]

Suds, just wondering, are you a lawyer?

No, but I am what some would call a deep and critical thinker of odd and uncommon things.

Edit: And before anyone thinks it, no, this is not a reflection of myself or my inner demons. It's just a thought I've had in the past.

 

[Dan]

So your avatar is a real photo of you. Ride a bike?

 

[sudsmcgee]

So your avatar is a real photo of you. Ride a bike?

Yes, that photo was taken on The Tail of the Dragon by Killboy.com some years back. I haven't had the time for much riding since my daughter was born though. All of my free time is now spent mountain biking to burn off beer calories.

 

[Dan]

Yes, that photo was taken on The Tail of the Dragon by Killboy.com some years back. I haven't had the time for much riding since my daughter was born though. All of my free time is now spent mountain biking to burn off beer calories.

Let me fix that for you.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Ha ha, yes, you're right. Thank you.

 

[Dan]

Hey man. We are all human.

Simple differences can lead some people down the wrong path.

 

[bottlebomber]

Double post.. BB. Dont know why that happens but it does.

It happens with the app. If you post and it doesn't send right away, sometimes it will post through twice when you get back on. It is obnoxious, and doesn't mean your posts are twice as important

 

[Dan]

It happens with the app. If you post and it doesn't send right away, sometimes it will post through twice when you get back on. It is obnoxious, and doesn't mean your posts are twice as important

Hey man

I think most of us understand that. You're good. No worries.

 

[zeg]

I'm very sorry to hear about this loss.

A few years ago, a faculty member in my department in grad school committed suicide. He was a world-class astrophysicist, probably within a hair's breadth of a Nobel prize, had an exciting lab, was loved by his students and respected by essentially everyone. It was a shock, as it almost always is. In his case, he was a driven, dedicated person, who had demonstrated clearly that he could accomplish just about anything he set his mind to. Tragically, for some reason that I'll never know, he set his mind to destroying himself.

Although I was tempted, especially when I saw his teenaged sons at the memorial service, to brand him a coward and a fool and leave it at that, it's just not that simple. All the other evidence disagreed: this man was no coward, and he was no fool.

No, suicide is something that is very difficult to understand. It doesn't make sense, at least not in a culture where an individual's life is as prized as it is in ours.

I've faced depression, and although I have never had any serious suicidal thoughts or urges, I can sympathize with those who do. Certainly I have found myself stressed beyond belief, in a hole where some humiliating, unbearable failure with dreadful consequences looms inescapable. Then, after I survive somehow and look back, I realize how skewed my perspective was. For some reason, trapped in the moment, obvious and perfectly achievable solutions were not considered. Those humiliating, dreadful consequences were usually gross exaggerations. Most of the crushing stress was created entirely within the confines of my own skull.

So I can at least begin to understand how someone could find themselves believing that there's no other way out.

Anyway, there are many other things I could add here, but I think I've said enough. Just to close, I agree. Suicide is a cowardly act, and a thoughtless, selfish act. There is no question of that. But the bravest, most loving, caring, selfless people sometimes commit cowardly, thoughtless, selfish acts. It hurts to lose someone you love, to see the pain that their senseless death inflicts on those who love them, and hurt and anger and confusion are among the few sensible reactions to that pain. But all of us would be judged poorly in our lowest, worst moment.

Sorry for the horrendously insensitive thread hijack, but what would be the community's thoughts if a child molester killed themself before taking part in an act of molestation? Or if Adam Lanza killed himself before doing what he did? How many suicides actually prevent harm to others?

Again, sorry for being morbid, but this is a serious question I've always thought about.

I think this question would be best served by starting a separate thread. It does not seem appropriate to me to discuss it in this one.

(edit: though it seems others disagreed... still, it seems like a somewhat separate discussion, and out of place to me.)

 

[sudsmcgee]

I think this question would be best served by starting a separate thread. It does not seem appropriate to me to discuss it in this one.

(edit: though it seems others disagreed... still, it seems like a somewhat separate discussion, and out of place to me.)

Agreed, but I don't really want to have multiple suicide threads on a beer forum. That seems even more out of place IMO.

 

[Dan]

Zeg, dear Zeg.

Your hurt, explanation and wonder are well explained.

Nobody will ever figure this hurtfull subject out.

I'm not sure what any of us can do to deter it. When a person goes into a dark side and all they can think about is death, we've lost them. Would be better to never let them get to that point.

What are your opinions on that? I'm not putting you under the gun, you can say nothing and nobody will think badly. Just wondering your opinion if you want to give it.

How do we keep them from getting to the point that suicide is the only way out? No response required. Sure there many here on HBT that will answer. Hope that doesn't sound condescending; I sure as hell didn't mean it to be.

 

[reinstone]

Sorry for the horrendously insensitive thread hijack, but what would be the community's thoughts if a child molester killed themself before taking part in an act of molestation? Or if Adam Lanza killed himself before doing what he did? How many suicides actually prevent harm to others?

Again, sorry for being morbid, but this is a serious question I've always thought about.

I will drink to that. Suicide is better than harming other innocent people. Nothing morbid Dan. Just real life some people have a hard time with real life. You and I will get some shi, over it. But who cares its the truth To all the crazies if you ever wanted to do something more than you want to live....ask yourself.......does it hurt another ? If yes, go ahead , off with your head. Suicide is best. Bye!!