Suggestions to prevent homebrew twang in next batch

[chato]

I've been plagued with 'homebrew twang' and desparately want to eliminate it. I've been researching it a bit, but unfortunately 'googling' for a solution seems to only produce forum threads with no precise solution offered. Opinions on what causes HBT are all over the board. Even describing it seems to be nearly impossible. But I'm pretty sure that most homebrewers know of it or have tasted it in homebrewed beer. I've only tried a few other noobie's homebrews, but they all had twang. And the majority of my brews have had it to some extent.

I want to eliminate HBT. Here's the list of things that others have pointed to as the cause in the threads I've read:

1. Old extract
2. Old hops
3. Certain yeast strains - especially Safale 04 and the liquid versions of it.
4. Fermentation temp went above 70
5. Boil was too strong causing Maillard reactions
6. Grain husks got into the boil
7. Oxydation

I'm doing AG so number 1 is not the cause. All the rest could apply. So for my next batch, I plan to:

1. Use only this year's hops that have been cryo-vac packed and frozen
2. Make aboslutely sure that the initial self rise in temperature from exothermic reaction doesn't exceed 70
3. Do not use S-04 or the liquid versions of it (or any dry yeast for that matter)
4. Boil less vigorously
5. Make absolutely sure that not one single grain husk gets into BK
6. I'm not too sure how to prevent oxydation if this is the cause. The twang I refer to is not a 'cardboard' taste, which is what I normally see associated with oxydation. I oxygenate the wort before pitching, but I'm guessing this is not the oxydation they are referring to. I will be extra careful with racking, dry hopping and bottling. Unfortunately, I don't keg so I don't have CO2 available.

That's all I can think of. Is there anything else I should add to this list to eliminate twang?

 

[Rugrad02]

Have you looked at mash pH? I know many brewers aim for a room temperature mash of 5.2 but I find that a bit low for my taste. If it gets too low, in the 4s, pH can cause that twang, a sort of thin tartness that I don't enjoy. 5.2 would probably be an okay pH for an APA or an IPA, but I like a mash in the 5.3-5.5 range.


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[flars]

What water are you using for brewing? What cleaner are you using in your equipment? What sanitizer are you using?

 

[JonM]

I'd start with mash pH and water chemistry.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

 

[chato]

What water are you using for brewing? What cleaner are you using in your equipment? What sanitizer are you using?

I use my tap water. Here's the water profile from the utility company:

Ca Mg Na Cl SO4 HCO3
17 10 7.5 7.5 13 61

I adjust the water based on the annual report from the water company and the suggestions from Bru'n Water and BrewCipher. Here's the final water profile after adjustments for the last beer I brewed that has lots of twang:

Ca Mg Na Cl SO4 HCO3
94 10 8 52 135 61

For cleaner I use PBW and for sanitizer I use StarSan.

 

[fartinmartin]

Safale 04 is fine for me , doubt its that.
Rehydrate the 04.
Try 05 ( for me they are both great dry yeasts )
I dont think it will be the hops.
Mash temp ? about 66-67C works for me.
Boil as vigorous as you like, but no lid.
You can include as much oxygen as you like right up till you pitch ( more bubbles the better ), then NO bubbles -AT ALL-!
Have you been using campden ? if NO try it, you need very little ! If YES dont.
Fermentation temp, 15-18C works.
NO secondary
Dry hop after five or six days (that the only time the FV is opened!)
Sanitation , just do it right.

That gives me good beer.

 

[chato]

Have you looked at mash pH?

I don't check pH during the brewing process but I try to adjust it with calcium chloride and calcium sulfate additions based on the water profile. I've also started adding lactic acid to get it a little lower. For the batch I mentioned above, BrewCipher put my mash pH at 5.44.

 

[chato]

Have you been using campden ? if NO try it, you need very little ! If YES dont.

NO secondary

I do use campden. I use 1/4 tab crushed up into strike water and the same amount into the sparge water. So are you saying to stop using it?

As far as the secondary, I only have two carboys for fermenting, so I usually rack to secondary so I can start another batch in the larger primary carboy. I also like to rack to secondary if I'm doing a double-dry hop to get the beer off the first round of hops. So, should I invest in another primary just to avoid racking? Is this to avoid oxidation?

 

[brewbeerry]

I would also suggest water chemistry as the source of problems. My first major improvement to my beers was solid fermentation temp control; how do you control this aspect? Then mash ph control has been helping a lot to give me better tasting and clearer beers. I follow the primer in Brew Science section using RO water.

How is the grain crushed? I just bought a barley crusher to replace my corona mill because one side would leave mostly intact grain while the other side got turned to flour. I just brewed 2 batches with the new mill and will see if that made any difference. I still hit around 5.35 mash ph with corona mill and ph seems to be the factor for tannin extraction but I still wanted to test it out.

Could it be oversparging? On those 2 batches with same grain and hop bill I used 1.4 qts/lb mash water for 1 and 2.1 qts/lb on the other (less sparge water). Granted these beers have not been properly carbonated or tasted so I can't say yet. Reading about the countertop Brutus on BYO it mentioned better taste from thinner mashes and less sparging.

I also have no issues with S04, fermented at 64-65F

 

[fartinmartin]

If you are a chemist, scientist, or posess some sort of ology go forward with the water treatment stuff. For me its a black art, that I dont know enough about, I think thats the case for most of us small scale brewers. I am sure that there is something in it , BUT , fiddling with this stuff does as much damage as good in my opinion.
Ordinary town water does the job for me.
I doubt that half the guys who comment on treating their water have the necessary scales and measuring equipment to actualy have a clue what they are doing ! My scales are good to .01grams, that aint very much !

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

What the heck is "twang"? I have had my share of issues over the years, from water chemistry to astringency and every sort of infection imaginable. Can you be more specific? Is it something that builds with time? Just a general flavor that is consistent with every batch?

I would bet it is something that is process related, which is what I have always found out my problems were.

But I am not sure what the twang is to which you are referring.

 

[JonM]

I'd check the actual mash pH because, while the software is quite good, it's not always spot on. I have had several batches where the estimated pH has been WAY off.

 

[soccerdad]

Subscribing thread. Best wishes in fixing. My guess is water, but GUESS is the operative word.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

I did not see any mention of Trub removal. Trub will add a stale flavor to beer if in large enough quantity.

 

[opiate82]

Water Chemistry and fermentation temperature control are the two things that took my beers to "commercial" quality.

For water chemistry, I still don't measure PH but just following the basic primer has gotten me great results. For fermentation temp, with some very specific exemptions where I want some esters (saison, kolsch yeast) I keep everything in the low 60's.

 

[fartinmartin]

#8
Every movement has a risk. Carbouys are great and you naturaly want to use them, plastic bins are relatively cheap, that can save you a transfer, thats a bucket full of risk eliminated.
The campden "could" be your problem, try leaving it off, two lots of a quarter tablet sounds too much to me.
Primary and secondary for me is one vessel. Unless you do things with your yeast. If you do stop it , get your basic brew right first.
Why do you want to get the brew off the hops ? I put my hops in bags, and take them out when I have cooled, that eliminates that concern. I dry hop in bags.
Because you are using carbouys you are doing transfers, it does suggest your nice gear may be your problem.
I suggest back to basics, get a simple basic brew right, a few times, then start experimenting.

 

[chato]

fermentation temp control; how do you control this aspect?

How is the grain crushed?

Could it be oversparging?

For temp control, this is one area that I am lacking. My problem is typically keeping the beer warm enough as I live in Vermont and my brewing so far has been in the winter and spring. But, in the last bad batch, despite being in an ambient temperature of 61, the batch rose to almost 79 overnight (Wyeast 1028 - London Ale). I stacked ice bottles around it and it came down in 4-6 hours to 68, then I went to a heating pad to keep it between 65-68. It drops down to 65 at night then I bring it back up to 68 in the day.

The grain has been crushed by Morebeer.com. I order milled grains.

I don't know if it could be oversparging. I use Brewcipher to determine my strike and sparge water volumes. I'm not getting the greatest efficiency, but how do I know if it's from oversparging? Can oversparging cause twang?

 

[chato]

What the heck is "twang"? I have had my share of issues over the years, from water chemistry to astringency and every sort of infection imaginable. Can you be more specific? Is it something that builds with time? Just a general flavor that is consistent with every batch?

I would bet it is something that is process related, which is what I have always found out my problems were.

But I am not sure what the twang is to which you are referring.

Like others in various threads on this subject, I have a hard time describing twang. Its an aroma and taste combination that is the first thing you notice when you approach a beer that has it. To me it immediately says "homebrewed beer". It is especially noticeable if you drink a homebrew alongside a commercial beer. I've never tasted twang in commercial beer, but some Belgians have a similar, but not exact, profile. The twang taste hits you up front and can fade somewhat in your mouth allowing you to taste what the beer would taste like without it. And from what I can tell it does not dissipate from the batch by aging. It does sometimes seem to vary bottle to bottle. I'd say most of my 26 batches so far have had some twang. Maybe four or five batches had none. I would think if you've never tasted it, you're an exceptionally gifted homebrewer, or darn lucky.

 

[chato]

I did not see any mention of Trub removal. Trub will add a stale flavor to beer if in large enough quantity.

This is interesting...could trub be causing it? I do BIAB and add pellet hops direct to the boil. I use medium-mesh screen collanders to remove some of the material when I pour the chilled wort into the fermenter, but I have had some fairly large sediment accumulation in my fermenter. However, I would not describe twang as a 'stale flavor'.

I usually rack off the trub to secondary at about 2-3 weeks. Typically this is done because I need the primary for my next batch.

 

[mtnagel]

What the heck is "twang"?

For me the twang was definitely extract related. When I went from partial boil/all extract at boil to full boil/late extract addition, I greatly minimized it. I believe I've read that a lot of it is the caramelization reactions from boiling all the extract for the full boil time in a concentrated solution. For me it was a sweet caramel taste. I now switched to AG and haven't had it since. Yes I know the OP said he does AG, so this is no use to him, but this is what I believe most people mean when they say extract twang.

I did not see any mention of Trub removal. Trub will add a stale flavor to beer if in large enough quantity.

Basic brewing radio did an experiment episode on this (February 23, 2012 - Trub Experiment Results) and while their word isn't the definitive word, they pretty much said it didn't matter. I think some preferred the batches without the trub and some preferred it with the trub. They had multiple people do different types of beer too. So it really shouldn't be an issue to dump all the trub in the fermentor.

 

[pvault98]

I would almost without a doubt guess it is related to your fermentation. unless you have some insanely disgusting water, which is unlikely, off flavors are going to come from fermenting too warm during the growth phase. The first 48 hours the temperature needs to be steady and at the acceptable range for the yeast strain. Since you mention ales above, 67 degrees is a pretty typical temp to maintain during this period. pitch the correct number of yeast, adequately oxygenate, hold the correct temp during the growth phase, and then avoid any major swings in temp throughout the fermentation and it should really help your issue. also make sure you are letting the beer fully ferment and not just bottling after "x" days just b/c that is what a recipe says to do.

water should really be the last thing you look at in your process (aside from removing chlorine from it). it is true that correctly adjusted water for the style can improve your beer from just being good and make it great, but the water is not going to produce the homebrew twang you speak of. that is very characteristic of improper fermentation temperature control and yeast health in my opinion.

 

[chato]

I would almost without a doubt guess it is related to your fermentation. unless you have some insanely disgusting water, which is unlikely, off flavors are going to come from fermenting too warm during the growth phase. The first 48 hours the temperature needs to be steady and at the acceptable range for the yeast strain. Since you mention ales above, 67 degrees is a pretty typical temp to maintain during this period. pitch the correct number of yeast, adequately oxygenate, hold the correct temp during the growth phase, and then avoid any major swings in temp throughout the fermentation and it should really help your issue. also make sure you are letting the beer fully ferment and not just bottling after "x" days just b/c that is what a recipe says to do.

water should really be the last thing you look at in your process (aside from removing chlorine from it). it is true that correctly adjusted water for the style can improve your beer from just being good and make it great, but the water is not going to produce the homebrew twang you speak of. that is very characteristic of improper fermentation temperature control and yeast health in my opinion.

This is also what I'm leaning towards as to what is causing the twang. I don't have a fermentation chamber and typically warming the fermenter is what I need to do, not cool it. However, during the first 12 hours or so after pitching there's no telling how high the temperature might go. I've heard that a 4-5 degree increase is normal, but I saw it go up 10-12 degrees on the robust porter I recently did. For me that's the hardest time period to monitor because it's usually overnight. I suppose one method for me to minimize the temperature rise from the initial growth phase would be to put the fermenter into a water bath of what, 64 or 65 F water? At least that way there is more mass for the yeasties to heat up.

 

[mtnagel]

Yes, a water bath works wonders. I've checked during active fermentation and the wort was less than 1 degree difference from the water in the water bath temperature. I use a rubbermaid tote and fill it up to about the 3 gallon mark on the bucket.

 

[Howhownow]

To warm your fermentation try a seedling heat mat. They are about $20 and are sufficient size to heat 2 fermenters. They are also waterproof (though I wouldn't submerge them) and can be wired through a basic light dimmer switch to control intensity. You can also wire them through an stc 1000 or any temp controller with a heat function.
I struggled with the "twang" myself, even after AG. I'd say look to fermentation temps.

 

[Smellyglove]

I have no experience with water chemistry, so I'll not comment on that. The first thing which come to my mind is temperature control. If you ferment too hot (you said that you actually need to heat it not cool it, but you also mentioned your temperature rising to almost 79) the yeast can produce some unwanted fusels, they taste like alcohol (they are alcohols). Maybe this is what you're experiencing? A very mild form of bad moonshine-brew?

The other thing is imo table sugar (didn't catch if that is what you use for priming) also givs a mellow flavour which at least in my mouth feels off, even though it's not so strong.

I did three batches where I primed with regular table sugar and all those had one "feel" in common, which I just didn't like.

 

[gregorybriscoe]

I had that twang in all of my extract brews until I split up the extract volume into 2 different addition times. 1/2 at 60 and 1/2 at 30. Also nailed down my cleaning and sanatation process. I also let my bottles condition at least 3 weeks before drinking which helped with the green flavor

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

This is starting to sound to me like the best way to solve this is to go sit down with a pro brewer who knows his stuff. I have been lucky enough to have the attention of pro brewers all around the NJ area and they helped me with suggestions to eliminate off flavors. A good homebrew club may also be able to help, but the best guys to sit and talk with are at the local breweries (unless their beer is not very savory) who have been to the big brewing schools.

It took me 5 years or more to get the kinks out. As I said, not sure about the twang, but I have had many of the other problems, all of which were identified and eliminated through tasting sessions and changing what I did and used to get it right.

Hate to say it, but it can take many many batches (dozens?) to get where you want to be (which is beer that you cannot stop drinking until you pass out!)

Good luck and never give up! You eventually shall be rewarded.

 

[Croyzen]

This screams of water and the manipulation of it. You REALLY need to know what you're doing when playing with water. As an example, recently I had an issue with a blonde ale and suspected high alkalinity based on one of those drinking water strip tests and the fact that my source water is from an area known for high alkalinity. My issue was harshness and low gravity from the mash on pale(r) beers. As a troubleshooting measure I made a one gallon batch changing one variable, water. I used distilled water with one gram of calcium chloride per gallon of pre-boil water. (I needed just over 2 gallons). The resulting beer was terrible. I mean undrinkable with the dominant flavor being salty twang. My scale only weighs to the nearest gram. I measured out 2 grams. It was by far the worst beer I have made. Did I get too much calcium chloride in the water? It tasted like it. I went by my scale which has been reliable for all other weight measurements though.

The next batch, rather than dump a million dollars in a scale that weighs to the nearest pubic hair and play mad scientist hoping my inputs in some spreadsheet are correct and that the water I'm manipulating has the exact content out of that tap that I claim it does, I just kept it simple. I cut my filtered tap water with distilled water at about 35-40%. The immediate impact was driving down the alkalinity and my mash performance skyrocketed. I was able to hit my target OG where I had been coming in several points low on pales.

To me playing with water is highly over-rated and not at all worth the trouble. There are battles to pick such as addressing your water's alkalinity and chlorine content which are vital. But adding brewing salts is mostly a waste. I would be curious to know if anyone has added all their salts based on spreadsheet inputs and then sent that water off to Ward or someplace for an accuracy check? Probably very few if any.

My advice is to brew the same recipe over and over until you solve your problems and keep your troubleshooting simple. Find out what works for you.

 

[chato]

This screams of water and the manipulation of it. You REALLY need to know what you're doing when playing with water. As an example, recently I had an issue with a blonde ale and suspected high alkalinity based on one of those drinking water strip tests and the fact that my source water is from an area known for high alkalinity. My issue was harshness and low gravity from the mash on pale(r) beers. As a troubleshooting measure I made a one gallon batch changing one variable, water. I used distilled water with one gram of calcium chloride per gallon of pre-boil water. (I needed just over 2 gallons). The resulting beer was terrible. I mean undrinkable with the dominant flavor being salty twang. My scale only weighs to the nearest gram. I measured out 2 grams. It was by far the worst beer I have made. Did I get too much calcium chloride in the water? It tasted like it. I went by my scale which has been reliable for all other weight measurements though.

The next batch, rather than dump a million dollars in a scale that weighs to the nearest pubic hair and play mad scientist hoping my inputs in some spreadsheet are correct and that the water I'm manipulating has the exact content out of that tap that I claim it does, I just kept it simple. I cut my filtered tap water with distilled water at about 35-40%. The immediate impact was driving down the alkalinity and my mash performance skyrocketed. I was able to hit my target OG where I had been coming in several points low on pales.

To me playing with water is highly over-rated and not at all worth the trouble. There are battles to pick such as addressing your water's alkalinity and chlorine content which are vital. But adding brewing salts is mostly a waste. I would be curious to know if anyone has added all their salts based on spreadsheet inputs and then sent that water off to Ward or someplace for an accuracy check? Probably very few if any.

My advice is to brew the same recipe over and over until you solve your problems and keep your troubleshooting simple. Find out what works for you.

The results of your experiment are very interesting, thanks. I've always treated my water with CaCl2 and CaSo4 based on advice in brewing software and online research. I've never tried to brew a batch using totally untreated water. However, if you started with distilled water and only added CaCl2 and nothing else, wouldn't that have produced a funky water profile?

Maybe I'll drop the water treatment - except campden for chloramines - from my next batch and see how it goes. How do you personally address alkalinity? Just by adding the distilled water? or do you check the mash pH using test strips then adjust?

Also, incidentally, I recently bought a nice little digital scale for under $9 on Amazon that weights accurately to .1 gram.