Styrian Golding vs. Styrian Celeia hops?

[Silver_Is_Money]

Are these hops identical, or are there differences? I just got back into brewing 1 year ago after about a 15 year absence, and I'm familiar with Styrian Golding, but not Styrian Celeia. At least one LHBS redirects me to Celeia when I search for Golding. What's the story?

 

[TreborDeSinagro]

I think they are both the same thing: Fuggles grown in the Slovenia.

 

[bierhaus15]

They are not the same. Celia is a triploid cross of the original and two other hops. The original Styrian Goldings are most often found under the Slovenian name; Savinjski Golding. The former has a pleasant noble-spice character, with the Savinjski showcasing more orange and resinous character. Both are nice.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks! I'm looking for a mild noble spice character, so I guess I better stick with Styrian Golding, or use Fuggles.

 

[mongoose33]

Celeia is my favorite hop. Harder to find, unfortunately, though my LHBS carries them.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Celeia is my favorite hop. Harder to find, unfortunately, though my LHBS carries them.

Never heard of it. This is cool.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

All that may be presently available in the USA is the Celeia varietal, even if the package only states Styrian Golding. I saw this as an answer to what was effectively my question here on the Northern Brewer website. Something to do with strict EU labeling regulations.

Visit this link and go to the Q&A section. http://www.northernbrewer.com/styrian-goldings-hop-pellets

 

[Gadjobrinus]

That's interesting, Silver. YCH not only distinguishes them, but offers them separately for sale.

Celeia

Savinjski (Styrian)

You're saying this is just this notion as discussed on NB, that calling it Styrian is all to avoid the confusion from the naming scheme of the hop - any loose ratio of Celeia and Savinski - prior to EU restrictions, and that YCH is actually not selling Savinski?

Seems puzzling to me, especially when they have both separately listed. I use "Styrian" alot, so I guess it's of concern.

 

[bierhaus15]

Hops direct sells Savinjski Goldings by the pound. They lend a pleasant orange marmalade character in large amounts. Great for bitters.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hops direct sells Savinjski Goldings by the pound. They lend a pleasant orange marmalade character in large amounts. Great for bitters.

Thanks Bierhaus, nice descriptor which I've never associated with the hop. I think I need to do a 100% IIPA with the Savinjski. That "orange marmalade" is a note I find with First Gold, which is why I like it so much in my "best" and strong bitters, stands up well.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A quick check confirmed that the three LHBS's within a 45 minute drive from me only carry the Celeia version. Bummer!!!

I'll have to give Celiea a whirl before I can ultimately decide whether or not I like it. Apparently it is still quite Fuggle like, but my initial suspicion (and concern) is that due to the cross breeding it may not be quite as subtle as what is now called Savinjski Golding.

 

[mongoose33]

A quick check confirmed that the three LHBS's within a 45 minute drive from me only carry the Celeia version. Bummer!!!

I'll have to give Celiea a whirl before I can ultimately decide whether or not I like it. Apparently it is still quite Fuggle like, but my initial suspicion (and concern) is that due to the cross breeding it may not be quite as subtle as what is now called Savinjski Golding.

I brew a SMASH with just Celeia and Maris Otter. Great beer--tasty, lighter, but still flavorful. I was doing one a couple months ago, discovered on brew day, with things already in motion, that I had only 2 ounces of Celeia, not the 3 ounces I needed.

So I'm online quickly looking for equivalents; Fuggle of course is listed as a possible, and I had Fuggle, so I put the Fuggle in as bittering hop.

Well. Never again. I still have some of that beer left; want some? I did *not* care for it--the flavor doesn't do it for me. I also have a more recent SMASH brewed the "right" way, and it's much better--but then, I used nothing but Celeia in it.

I, at least, don't see Fuggle as the same as Celeia. I suspect you wouldn't either, so why not give Celeia a try. I won't be using Fuggle again, but I need to go to my LHBS and get more Celeia.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I, at least, don't see Fuggle as the same as Celeia. I suspect you wouldn't either, so why not give Celeia a try. I won't be using Fuggle again, but I need to go to my LHBS and get more Celeia.

I started out worrying about the fate of Golding, but now I'm seriously intrigued by Celeia.

 

[MerlinWerks]

There is a third variation as well, Styrian Bobek...

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Styrian Golding was an integral hop in several of my recipes. Then I start seeing Celeia. And Bobek. I've read some things on the interwebs that say distributors are selling them as the same thing. Then stuff that says nah, they're totally different. I don't know what to believe at this point. What do I need to buy to get actual Styrian Golding?

 

[griffi]

A couple Belgians I like to brew call for SG but I've been subbing celeia because I can't source SG. I think it comes out the same...

 

[MerlinWerks]

Styrian Golding was an integral hop in several of my recipes. Then I start seeing Celeia. And Bobek. I've read some things on the interwebs that say distributors are selling them as the same thing. Then stuff that says nah, they're totally different. I don't know what to believe at this point. What do I need to buy to get actual Styrian Golding?

I believe the original will say "Styrian Savinjski"

 

[STMF]

Styrian Golding was an integral hop in several of my recipes. Then I start seeing Celeia. And Bobek. I've read some things on the interwebs that say distributors are selling them as the same thing. Then stuff that says nah, they're totally different. I don't know what to believe at this point. What do I need to buy to get actual Styrian Golding?

They were sold under the "Styrian Golding" name before. Now they are not allowed to do so but each must be sold under its own name.

There is no way to know what variant you bought.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Styrian Golding was an integral hop in several of my recipes. Then I start seeing Celeia. And Bobek. I've read some things on the interwebs that say distributors are selling them as the same thing. Then stuff that says nah, they're totally different. I don't know what to believe at this point. What do I need to buy to get actual Styrian Golding?

Your recipes were lies. Or rather, they were a last residue of the traditional assumption that all hops from a given region were the same variety. "Styrian Goldings" is a bit like saying "Oregon hops". Fifty years ago you could be pretty sure that any hops from Oregon were of the Cluster variety, so "Oregon hops" and "the Cluster variety" could be used pretty interchangeably. Nowadays, many more varieties are grown in Oregon and so "Oregon hops" could mean Cascade, Chinook or whatever. So the phrase "Oregon hops" should be banished from recipes and replaced with the actual variety name.

So in this case "Savinjski Golding" is the "Cluster", the formerly dominant variety that used to be synonymous with a whole region, whereas Celeia and Bobek are "Cascade and Chinook", new varieties which are distinct from the traditional variety and which have meant that it can no longer be assumed that all hops from a region are the one traditional variety. (not that they taste the same as Cascade and Chinook, just to be clear. Celeia is meant to be a bit earthier, Bobek a bit more floral-piney than Savinjski Golding).

So good hop merchants will be using the phrase "Savinjski Golding", and that's the one intended by your recipes.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Celeia:

aroma profile: Earthy, Herbal
A hybrid of Styrian Golding, Aurora and a Slovenia wild hop, Celeia is known for its noble characteristics. It has widespread usage in lager and ale-style beers.
Aroma: Specific aroma descriptors include noble characteristics.

****

Savinjski Golding. Slovenia

aroma profile: Earthy, Floral, Spicy

Originating from UK Fuggle, Styrian Savinjski Golding is a traditional Slovenian variety with pleasant bittering and noble aroma characteristics.

Aroma: Specific aroma descriptors include noble.

Edit: I appreciate this discussion, as I never knew any of this. It would be nice to try these two, if indeed there is a difference and it can be known, and see what comes up.

 

[SanPancho]

Thanks Bierhaus, nice descriptor which I've never associated with the hop. I think I need to do a 100% IIPA with the Savinjski. That "orange marmalade" is a note I find with First Gold, which is why I like it so much in my "best" and strong bitters, stands up well.

so when you say you dont get the orange from the hop- do you mean the celeia? or the savjinksi?

working on a citrus lager and would love some orange.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

so when you say you dont get the orange from the hop- do you mean the celeia? or the savjinksi?

working on a citrus lager and would love some orange.

The Savinjski. See bierhaus's post # 9 above. Interesting post, have yet to try it out (moved, stuff's in storage, have to work out water and electricity logistics). Do love First Gold. Probably too much, lol.

 

[SanPancho]

so in your experience, first gold has more of an orange character?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Oh, I can't offer any comparative experience on that because I haven't used Styrians in a long, long time and I don't recall that character then. But then again, who knows what "Styrians" it actually was (all my stuff came from Goose Island in Chicago - where I worked, pretty nice to get the stuff to work with). Bierhaus is an authoritative guy, along with Northern and many others - I'd say, give it a try, maybe a comparative trial with the First Gold?

I just happen to be pretty nuts for the FG in big bitters, that's all.

 

[CEBrewer]

Glad I found this post. I thought I picked up Golding out of the box at my LHBS and now on brew day I actually have Styrian Celeia. I guess the Goldings is not available. This sounds like a nice alternative either way and I'm not trying to be a purist about the Fuller's ESB clone recipe I found on this site. Thanks to all the people in the know that posted previously!

 

[goodolarchie]

Sorry to necro this thing, but has anyone tried Bobek in this time? It sounds like it was one of the three that split out as Styrian Golding "Savinjski Golding, Celeia, Bobek" though it's Golding (grand)parentage flows from Northern Brewer.

From Hopslist:

Bred in its native Zalec region of Slovenia alongside Blisk and Buket, Bobek was an attempt to create both high alpha and good aroma in one cultivar. Bobek is not being commercially produced at this time. Its grandparents are Northern Brewer and a Slovenian male.

Also Known As: Styrian Golding B, Styrian Bobek
Characteristics: Pleasant aroma, pine

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Styrian Savinjski Golding has a marmalade character. Fullers ESB has a marmalade character (attributed to the yeast). Could Savinjski Golding be the means to duplicate this characteristic of ESB?

 

[Hanglow]

I think it's brighter in aroma and flavour than the marmalade you get from Fullers. More fresh citrus ( not in the new world modern in your face hop sense though) than cooked if you get me. Maybe lemon marmalade might be closer if you have a pithy bitterness to the beer. It certainly works well in bitters of many types though

When brewing in scotland was slowly clawing its way back off its knees from the lows of the 80s, the beers that really did well were late hopped with slovenian hops . Deuchars IPA was one and my favourite at the time (late 90s ) was Harviestoun Bitter and Twisted. It had Challenger and hallertau mittelfruh as well but the most prominent hop was the late slovenian goldings. It's still a very good beer in cask form, rather uninspiring in bottles and cans though. Less said about Deuchars now the better.

 

[bierhaus15]

Styrian Savinjski Golding has a marmalade character. Fullers ESB has a marmalade character (attributed to the yeast). Could Savinjski Golding be the means to duplicate this characteristic of ESB?

I think the term "marmalade" is somewhat overused and often taken out of context. Marmalade to me is more of a spicy-bitter citrus character than the orange-y sweetness you'd find in a jug of supermarket OJ. This also often comes up when doing UK hop selection with a mixed group, especially when the grower says X hop has notes of marmalade and/or bergamot and half the US brewers say they get no "orange-citrusy" character, like they were expecting Amarillo/US level citrus hop notes. I also find the marmalade-y character of Fullers to be subtle and it is more of a vague earthy-citrusy yeast note than straight up marmalade jam. I get some of the the same sweet-earthy citrus flavor in other yeasts, like WY1099, WY1335, and recently WLP025.

For UK hops that get closest to the spicy-citrus/orange-sweet character, I really enjoy Challenger (my favorite), First Gold (more herbal-lemony), and many of the the Slovenian Goldings. To really get the character, I find you have to use a lot of hops; much more than the usual 1-2 oz as found in many UK home brew recipes.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I also find the marmalade-y character of Fullers to be subtle and it is more of a vague earthy-citrusy yeast note than straight up marmalade jam.....

For UK hops that get closest to the spicy-citrus/orange-sweet character, I really enjoy Challenger (my favorite), First Gold (more herbal-lemony), and many of the the Slovenian Goldings. To really get the character, I find you have to use a lot of hops; much more than the usual 1-2 oz as found in many UK home brew recipes.

I think some of it comes down to freshness and particular circumstances - for instance I had a Challenger green hop beer last year that was a revelation for me in getting a fairly pure orange from Challenger - both the green hop and a super-sunny year will have been factors in that. And I'd say it's fairly prominent in Fuller's, but that's partly because I'm mostly drinking British beers.

Plus marmalade varies - home-made is more like a winter warmer beer in comparison to the bright fruit of a golden ale.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

For UK hops that get closest to the spicy-citrus/orange-sweet character, I really enjoy Challenger (my favorite), First Gold (more herbal-lemony), and many of the the Slovenian Goldings. To really get the character, I find you have to use a lot of hops; much more than the usual 1-2 oz as found in many UK home brew recipes.

Sorry to resurrect, but just came across the comment (must have forgotten over the years). I like Challenger quite a bit - in fact just did an ordinary, bit of a clone of Coniston Blue Bird. When you talk about getting this character out of Challenger and needing more - I presume you're talking about late boil. Any suggestions - time? 20-15-10-5 WP-hopstand? Amounts over a 5 gallon batch?

And were you also talking about First Gold, which I also really love - do you mean, similarly, you need much more than usual? Same question as to timing and amounts as for the Challenger.

Finally, what's the basis? Lower oil contents?