Strawberry Banana Shine

[William Autrey]

Well I tried for the first time a strawberry banana recipe. After cutting up and blending 32 lbs of strawberries and 60 lbs of bananas I performed a test with my refractor. It had a 11 Brix of sugar. I added 10 lbs of sugar which brought it up to 14 Brix. I then added one packet of turbo yeast instead of a Bakers yeast because I thought I had a couple of packets of Bakers but only had two packets of Turbo yeast. I added 20 gallons of water heated to 140 degrees and stir it every fifteen minutes for about an hour and a half. At which point I let it stand until the temperature dropped to 70 degrees. This took almost a day and half. I then sprinkled the Turbo yeast on top and let stand for another 24 hours. It took another 12 hours after the 24 hours for the yeast to take effect. Over the next three days the fermentation processed continued until it completely stopped. I then tested with a hydrometer and it tested at 1.00 specific gravity. I allowed it to continue for another day where it further dropped to 1.099 SG.
Two later I went to distill it and it had turned to vinegar.

What the hell happened? I am thinking I should have just used a Bakers yeast instead of the Turbo yeast.

 

[TGFV]

This may be a question for the distiller subthread, but I am guessing it oxidized and became infected with an acrtic a I'd bacteria, eating up the ethanol to create vinegar.

That or since you used turbo it tastes like crap. Never go turbo

 

[William Autrey]

I am thinking your right about the turbo. I was going to use the Bakers yeast I have but I did not have enough of this for the volume of mash.
I am going to try it again but use a wine yeast. My experience with making wine is that the faster the dryer the slower the fruitier.

 

[TGFV]

Yes and no about the wine yeast.

The speed of ferment does effect the flavour, but the yeast itself as well as the final gravity will determine it's final dryness as well as how much of the flavour comes through.

Too fast of ferments will also promote feusel alcohols and others in there if it gets to too high if a temp.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ok....

@TGFV making a product for distillation is A LOT different than making any other fermented beverage. Fusels, who cares? Dryness, what?

@William Autrey
Why did you heat the fruit/water/sugar?
Pitching an aggressive wine yeast (e.g. Lalvin R-HST) immediately after creating the must would prevent contaminants from taking hold. Proper rehydration (especially with go-ferm) and nutrient additions are keys to rapid fermentation.

I don't know much about distilling either (l don't distill) but leaving the must at such a high temp for so long without an active fermentation is clearly what caused the contamination.

Hope this helps

 

[William Autrey]

Ok....

@TGFV making a product for distillation is A LOT different than making any other fermented beverage. Fusels, who cares? Dryness, what?

@William Autrey
Why did you heat the fruit/water/sugar?
Pitching an aggressive wine yeast (e.g. Lalvin R-HST) immediately after creating the must would prevent contaminants from taking hold. Proper rehydration (especially with go-ferm) and nutrient additions are keys to rapid fermentation.

I don't know much about distilling either (l don't distill) but leaving the must at such a high temp for so long without an active fermentation is clearly what caused the contamination.

Hope this helps

It does help...Thank you all for commenting. I am going to try again in a couple of weeks when I know I have better control and not so much on my plate.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm not all that sure that your batch turned to vinegar after 3 days of fermentation and 2 days after that. Are you sure it wasn't the acidity from 32 lbs of strawberries?

 

[TGFV]

Ok....

@TGFV making a product for distillation is A LOT different than making any other fermented beverage. Fusels, who cares? Dryness, what?

I was addressing the topic he brought up.

And feusals and other undesirable acohols can increase the amount of heads of the distillates. Happy yeast make for happy product.

Plus in many ways it is the same for distilled or non distilled ferments . A properly cared for wash is much like a properly cared for fermented beverage. With distilling, lots of phenol and esters can still come through, along with flavours from specially grains, apple/fruit variety etc.

 

[William Autrey]

Ok....

@TGFV making a product for distillation is A LOT different than making any other fermented beverage. Fusels, who cares? Dryness, what?

@William Autrey
Why did you heat the fruit/water/sugar?
Pitching an aggressive wine yeast (e.g. Lalvin R-HST) immediately after creating the must would prevent contaminants from taking hold. Proper rehydration (especially with go-ferm) and nutrient additions are keys to rapid fermentation.

I don't know much about distilling either (l don't distill) but leaving the must at such a high temp for so long without an active fermentation is clearly what caused the contamination.

Hope this helps

After initially adding 20 gallons of 140 degree temp water to help break down the bananas. I took a sugar reading with my refractor. It showed 11 Brix. I then added 10 lbs of sugar and increased it to 14 Brix. At this point I had to wait for the water temperature to decrease to 70-80 degrees before I could add the yeast. When I returned two days later the water temp was 50 degrees. I had to increase the temp to 70 degrees with a space heater. Once I got it at this temp I added the yeast.

 

[William Autrey]

I'm not all that sure that your batch turned to vinegar after 3 days of fermentation and 2 days after that. Are you sure it wasn't the acidity from 32 lbs of strawberries?

No...it turned...the smell was enough to know what happened. I'm going to attempt it again but not use a Turbo yeast but use a distillers Bakers yeast or a wine yeast. And let it cool down naturally. Even if it does take 24 hours or more. My experience has been to allow fermentation of fruits to take longer then shorter times. It should have taken at least 7-10 days to fully ferment to 1.099 SG (specific gravity).
This is the reason for the post. I had never experienced any fermentation of fruit to ferment in 2-3 days and turn to vinegar 2 days after that.

 

[Shine0n]

That's strange, I did a strawberry that sat in an open top fermenter for 3 weeks, it got a nice lacto which added some creamy notes to the distillate but never turned to vinegar. I used Dady distillers yeast, now knowing more about the process I would've used ec1118. It ferments clean and is easier to make cuts on delicate fruit flavors that are VERY easily lost in distillation.
You did pick the two hardest fruits to get flavors from too, mine too over a year resting before the berries decided to show their faces but it was well worth the wait.

Also, collect in very small jars so you don't miss the the points of where the best and worse jars will be hiding.
My experience is that fruit brandies have the the best flavors in the heads/late heads/early hearts, so if you miss these precious points and don't collect them in small enough jars you may never find what you seek in a brandy.

NEVER TURBO!)

 

[William Autrey]

That's strange, I did a strawberry that sat in an open top fermenter for 3 weeks, it got a nice lacto which added some creamy notes to the distillate but never turned to vinegar. I used Dady distillers yeast, now knowing more about the process I would've used ec1118. It ferments clean and is easier to make cuts on delicate fruit flavors that are VERY easily lost in distillation.
You did pick the two hardest fruits to get flavors from too, mine too over a year resting before the berries decided to show their faces but it was well worth the wait.

Also, collect in very small jars so you don't miss the the points of where the best and worse jars will be hiding.
My experience is that fruit brandies have the the best flavors in the heads/late heads/early hearts, so if you miss these precious points and don't collect them in small enough jars you may never find what you seek in a brandy.

NEVER TURBO!)

Still do not understand the whole heads/ late heads/ hearts thing. After I throw out the first half quart I begin to collect in mason jars and sometimes in gallon glass jugs. But I can not tell by sipping or by looking what the differences are? I'm guess I would have to work with someone that could teach me, cause I'm not picking it up by reading about it.

Thanks for the information.

 

[Shine0n]

you have 4 different cuts on likker
foreshots- methanol ,poison
heads- early light alcohol. Think acetone, nail polish remover
hearts, the best part of the run. Clean tasting
Tails- where the turning point of good to bad, starts to cloud up, smells like old wet cardboard or wet stinky dog.

This is why I personally collect in small jars, cover them with a coffee filter till the next day. Then start in the middle and work my either forward to the beginning till I find the cut off point of what I like then do the same towards the end of the run.
Depending on the size of the run is how I know what sized jars to use.
If you have a 5 gal still, use little baby food jars to collect so you don't miss that cut point, air them for 24 hours, then smell, taste and look at what each one will contribute to the final product you're trying to achieve.

Also, different styles of likker have different cuts.
In my experience fruit brandies I tend to be looking in the heads/late heads for ghost of the base fruit, all of the hearts and absolutely no tails.
Rum, I smear the **** out of the whole run. I make very bold Jamaican style rums.
Bourbon, I love the very late heads, all the hearts and a very small early tails cut if aging on oak. if not oaking, no early tails.

if you have many questions just pm me and I'll gladly share what I know

 

[TGFV]

There are some amazing tutorials on proper likker cuts online, and these will greatly help with making better tasting product.

At the end if the day though, all likker should be cut, with the only exception being stripping runs, which after dumping the foreshotscan be all collected.

For practicing fruit runs, apple Brandy is a great and cheap wash.

 

[Shine0n]

A serious pain in the bootie if you crush and press tho.
Apple juice concentrate is fast and easy

 

[TGFV]

Or even good cartons of juice from your local Costco. Get 22l for 15$ at 9%, pretty damn good deal.

 

[Jaybird]

Just keep in mind the boiling point of Methanol is 148*F and Ethanol is 173*F. Knowing this is helpful and adds to the safety factor I preach in my store all day long. If you run your still at a very slow rate you will be able to separate out "most" of the Methanol based off temp. I did not fully understand this until I saw it for myself in a commercial environment. This is only IMHO useful at home if you have made a solid stripping run and then slow your system WAY WAY down for the spirit run. Smell and taste are always going to be your best testing equipment for flavor. For shots should ALWAYS be tossed at a minimum of 20ml per gallon of wash and done every time you fire up your still.

Sorry I just realized I am WAY OFF TOPIC here!

To answer your question. Without tasting or smelling I think most of us are at a loss. I am not a big proponent of TURBO anything unless its in my Super Duty. That said I also think bakers yeast does a KILLER job for baking! It is absolutely a saccharomyces strain don't get me wrong, just doesn't create the flavor profile I would want in my spirits. I would be using a known yeast strain that has the amyloglucosidase enzyme to do the job fully. It feel it would be like using a wine yeast designed and known for a hearty red to ferment my Belgian Blonde.

Cheers
Jay

 

[NinjaBear]

I agree the long wait to cool before trying to start the fermentation just gives time for bacteria to set in before you can get a healthy fermentation going.

You basically let it sit in a mold and bacteria paradise environment with nothing to hold it back.

A wort chiller or a chill plate for rapid cooling should be in your future equipment plans.

Barring the ability to rapid cool, a additive like Camden Tablets to keep an unspoiled environment until you’re ready to pitch works to protect your must. But I have no idea if they have any impact on distilling.

Also, if your must is too acidic, it can create sour notes from the acid and not be vinegar at all. So you may be able distill it and find plenty of alcohol anyway.

But what to do with a large quantity of fruit vinegar?

I’d distill the vinegar, maybe back age it with strawberries to bring back some color, flavor, and sweetness.

Then give/sell artisanal strawberry vinegar.

Then

 

[NinjaBear]

Also, I heard that bakers yeast increases your foreshot and fussy alcohols over the ethanol and reduces desired flavor congeners you want from late heads/hearts.

Not sure if it’s true or not. Just what I’ve picked up from various books and online sources.

 

[William Autrey]

I agree the long wait to cool before trying to start the fermentation just gives time for bacteria to set in before you can get a healthy fermentation going.

You basically let it sit in a mold and bacteria paradise environment with nothing to hold it back.

A wort chiller or a chill plate for rapid cooling should be in your future equipment plans.

Barring the ability to rapid cool, a additive like Camden Tablets to keep an unspoiled environment until you’re ready to pitch works to protect your must. But I have no idea if they have any impact on distilling.

Also, if your must is too acidic, it can create sour notes from the acid and not be vinegar at all. So you may be able distill it and find plenty of alcohol anyway.

But what to do with a large quantity of fruit vinegar?

I’d distill the vinegar, maybe back age it with strawberries to bring back some color, flavor, and sweetness.

Then give/sell artisanal strawberry vinegar.

Then

Right? I had thrown everything out before I read this. That is a great idea. Maybe ill try and make smaller amount and see how hat would turn out?

 

[William Autrey]

Also, I heard that bakers yeast increases your foreshot and fussy alcohols over the ethanol and reduces desired flavor congeners you want from late heads/hearts.

Not sure if it’s true or not. Just what I’ve picked up from various books and online sources.

I'm not sure of that either. As I have read that the best yeast to use for any fruit mash recipe begins with a Champagne yeast. Like Lalvin D-47 or 1118. The 1118 is what I'll be using this time around, with an enzyme. I'm going to start all over again this weekend (32 lbs of Strawberries and 60 lbs of Bananas). And I have just ordered a wort chiller to help with the controlled cool down process. It should be ready for distilling by Labor Day weekend. We'll see.

 

[NinjaBear]

I’ve also heard (and had some success) that lower ABV fruit wines gets more fruit flavor carry through than high ABV fruit wines

 

[TGFV]

The lower the abv the more times everything is essentially concentrated is how most people see it from the looks of it.

 

[William Autrey]

A serious pain in the bootie if you crush and press tho.
Apple juice concentrate is fast and easy

Accept if you have your own elderberry bushes! pick um, squeeze um and watch the juice flow from those little tiny berries. What you will get after nine months of settling is one wonderful wine!

 

[Shine0n]

For the most part most fruits are low in sugars, my apples are 11-13 brix.
Figs are high as the heavens in sugars as are pomegranate but strawberries are on the lower spectrum.

Peaches are fairly low as well but makes a hell of a brandy. Out of 50 gallons of wash (no sugar added) I only got 3 gallons of likker.
DO NOT USE BREAD YEAST WITH FRUIT!!!
ec1118 is top class for fruits to be distilled. clean, dry and doesn't have any nasty notes once distilled.

No need to wait for the wash to clear completely either, soon as the cap falls give it a day or two and load the boiler.

 

[William Autrey]

For the most part most fruits are low in sugars, my apples are 11-13 brix.
Figs are high as the heavens in sugars as are pomegranate but strawberries are on the lower spectrum.

Peaches are fairly low as well but makes a hell of a brandy. Out of 50 gallons of wash (no sugar added) I only got 3 gallons of likker.
DO NOT USE BREAD YEAST WITH FRUIT!!!
ec1118 is top class for fruits to be distilled. clean, dry and doesn't have any nasty notes once distilled.

No need to wait for the wash to clear completely either, soon as the cap falls give it a day or two and load the boiler.

Last time I tried this I got 11 Brix out of 32 lbs of strawberries and 60 lbs of bananas. I then added 10 lbs of sugar and got a final 15 brix.
Perfect!! The mistake I made was using Turbo yeast!! Agh! Not this time. I’m using ec1118 and shooting for 1.099 SP.

 

[NinjaBear]

If you want to get the lowest final gravity. Start the fermentation with the fruit. Then add the sugar in two or three additions as the bubbles slow.

 

[William Autrey]

If you want to get the lowest final gravity. Start the fermentation with the fruit. Then add the sugar in two or three additions as the bubbles slow.

Ok but to dilute the sugar it must be heated which will bring the temp up while fermenting.
But then again I’m only adding a 10 lb bag. No need to heat it duh!!

 

[NinjaBear]

You should be able to dissolve 10lbs in a small enough amount of water to be able to chill with an ice bath.

 

[Shine0n]

Try to use invert sugar, the long sugar chains are broken down into simple sugar chains the yeast have a fun time chewing thru.
I'll say the bananas had the lot of that sugar, strawberries are not that high.
If I can relocate the page on fruit sugars I'll link it here. it's very good info, I was looking on it for some mead to know the amount of honey to substitute for the sugars available in fruits.