Stout too bitter/astringent?

[ChillWill]

I've been having problems with souts... they're not very smooth, even with low IBU's. it's more of a feel than a taste... a bit 'harsh' maybe is the best way to describe it. However, pale ales are fine and come out really nicely even with similar or more IBU's.

I live in a softwater area and my report is as follows:
http://www.yorkshirewater.com/extra...?loc=S1 4SA&lat=53.375477&lng=-1.466144&tab=2

Can any of the more experienced people give me a quick idea if the water is the problem? I don't think it's the process I'm pretty certain its not the recipe/yeast/fermentation etc as I've tried a few others and as I say, pale beers, IPA's etc come out really well with the water being soft.

Local breweries add some salts to harden the water (DWP, whatever that is, I believe company in Nottingham provide it and its some blend they make and tell them how to add per gallon or whatever after doing a water report for them).

Also, looking at Palmers stuff... his Ca+2 range is meant to be 50-150, whereas by the calculation (x20 to go from mg/l to ppm) I'm getting 400. Is that right or have I misunderstood something?

As you can tell, I've only just got to the point of considering this kind of stuff (mainly because I love stouts and want them better). I promise I'll do some proper reading when I've got time.

 

[mrduna01]

You could try adding your dark grains at vourlauf. Dark grains when mashed can sometimes leave astringent off flavors according to gordons new book.

 

[ChillWill]

OK... I just checked and I think the ppm for calcium is 48, whereas the ml/g is 19ish. So I was/am confused why the palmer thing says x20 to get to ppm from ml/g. Although it says mEq/l, which I guess isn't mg/l.

Maybe something to do with imperial/metric conflict?

 

[ajdelange]

To convert mg/L to ppm as CaCO3 first divide by 20 which is the equivalent weight per liter. For example, if you have calcium at 30 mg/L dividing by 20 give 1.5 mEq/L. Second, multiply the mEq/L by 50 to get ppm as CaCO3. Thus 30 mg/L~75 ppm as CaCO3.

The referenced water report omits significant brewing information viz alkalinity, chloride and sulfate. From the low levels of hardness, these will all be relatively small as well so the water is not the problem the majority of the anions are sulfate. This can explain harshness but is not necessarily the cause here. A good candidate is the use of excessive roast grains. They probably should not exceed 10% of the grist.

 

[ChillWill]

Thanks for the info!

The recipe (o'flannagain standard) used 8% roast barley, 5% chocolate. Too much? I'll see how it ages out.

I start work in a brewery in 2 weeks so I can always chat to them about the water adjustments they make as they're close by and probably use similar water.

So in your experience, do I need to change the water or do you think just keeping the roast grains capped at 10% in future will be sufficient?

 

[mabrungard]

In looking into the water report posted on that page (click on the pdf), I see that the chloride and sulfate concentrations are quite moderate at 18 and 32 ppm, respectively. That leaves the bicarbonate content at about 17 ppm and the resulting alkalinity is 14 ppm (as CaCO3).

The resulting residual alkalinity is quite low and that supports your indication that your pale ales are fine. With dark beers, a higher residual alkalinity (RA) is REQUIRED in order to avoid letting the mash pH drop too low. AJ continues to dispute that, but higher RA is very helpful to avoid the sharpness and harshness of an overly low mash pH resulting from a dark mash with low RA water. Here in the US Midwest where very hard and alkaline water is normal, brewers have no problem creating outstanding and smooth dark beers. Higher alkalinity is the secret to creating smooth and mellow beers that employ significant percentages of roast and crystal malts.

Pickling lime (slaked lime) or chalk are useful for adding alkalinity to mash water. Pickling lime is quite strong and requires very careful dosage. Chalk is also a little tricky since chalk requires special treatment to realize its full alkalinity contribution, but a brewer can get by with chalk by adding twice as much as indicated by stoichimetry. I suggest you download Bru'n Water and read about brewing water treatment in the knowledge section that it includes.

That roast grain content is substantial, but not excessive. With minor water amendment, you should be able to brew that Stout succesfully.

 

[ChillWill]

Thanks for the advice... I'll look into it a bit more and cut back on the roast grain in the meantime.

Does bicarbonate soda work to get the pH up a bit? I need to look into where I can track down some chalk and slaked lime.

 

[ajdelange]

My first reaction to Martin's post was "Where'd he get the chloride and sulfate data?" then I spotted the pdf. Loxley, eh? Rather famous fellow from there as I recall.

Anyway, I do dispute the notion that high RA is required for all dark beers because every time a brew a stout at the 10% roast malt level with soft water I get a mash pH a bit higher than desired (around 5.5). This stout measures SRM typically in the 70's and has lots of nice chocolately notes but is very smooth. Following Martin's advice with the grain and water I am using would lead to disaster (well that's a bit dramatic perhaps). Laboratory test mashes confirm this. With distilled water (the softest of all) it takes around 30% roast barley to get pH as low as 5.2. This doesn't mean that I disallow the possibility of low pH (you might have really acidic chocolate malt) nor that low pH might not cause astringency or hardness. I don't have any experience with the effects of low pH as I have never encountered it even though I stubbornly refuse to add alkali to my dark beers. It's just never been a problem for me.

So there you have conflicting advice. I'm guessing your pH will be fine or a bit high and Martin is guessing it will be too low. There is only one way for you to resolve this disparity with certainty and that is to measure the pH. This is something you should be doing anyway. A decent meter can be had for under $100 US (don't know where the pound is relative to the $ these days). I definitely would not add alkali to your mash or water without a pH meter reading. This is not only required to tell you if alkali is indeed necessary but to let you know when you have added enough (it also tells you when you have added enough acid should you need to do that).

In my experience harshness is usually attributable to sulfate though in this case your sulfate is well below levels that are commonly used in brewing in your part of the world and if it were the sulfate you'd notice it in the ales too.

It's probably not pH (though you need to check that to be sure) so that leaves the roast malts. I've certainly has plenty of home brewed stouts that left me feeling that I'd been chewing on charcoal briquettes but given what 10% does I have trouble believing 13% would push you over the top. You could try pulling back on the roast, however.

WRT the additives: There is a company, Brupaks, in Cleckheaton (60 mi?) from Nottingham that sells two products for adjusting brewing water. The first, is called CRS, an acid blend, intended to combat alkalinity which, to quote Henry Reed, "in your case you have not got." The other they call DLS (dry liquor salts) which is a blend of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. I'm guessing that the DWP product you mention is similar.

 

[mabrungard]

Sodium bicarbonate does add alkalinity quite effectively. Its problem is that you're also adding sodium and there is a definite limit on how much you want to add to your brewing water. Sodium is an ion that its best to keep relatively low under most circumstances.

 

[ajdelange]

But the bicarbonate is usually more damaging than the sodium. Sodium is a "don't care" up to a pretty high concentration (where the beer starts to taste salty - OK in some styles) but alkalinity is almost always bad (there are exceptions). There is a general brewing principal "Hardness = good; alkalinity = bad" hence the Brewpacks duo I mentioned in #8. The first part of this is coming into question but the second part stands.

 

[ChillWill]

Wow, I thought it might be an easy fix.... oh well.

Another brewery in the area made a fairly bitter pale ale and I recall the brewing saying it needed more of something as it was a little hash. They'd already used dwp and I think he said calcium something or other. Maybe calcium chloride or sulphate. It was a good few months ago and I've only just remembered him saying it. It wasn't over the top ibu but bitterness, just a bit harsh.

I'll look into pH testing kits, I don't currently test and maybe I should start there. I'll also look into brupacks, I've heard of them and seen some of their products.

 

[ajdelange]

It probably is an easy fix. It's just a matter of figuring out what it is. You can always find the right path by experimentation. Brew it once with the roast grains pulled back. Brew it once with the addition of some calcium chloride. Brew it once with addition of alkali. See which gives the best result. Getting good beer is a matter of getting pH right and then tweaking the "stylistic ions" (sulfate, chloride) for best flavor. But getting the pH right is very important and that's why the meter is so important. Either Martin or AJ are giving you advice which is dead wrong and the only way to be sure is with a meter. Unfortunately test strips don't serve very well here.

Usually harshness is reduced by removing something (sulfate, high alpha hops) but chloride tends to round flavors, sweeten and smooth out the beer. There are even those that operate on the thesis that chloride and sulfate have antipodal effects because sulfate tends to sharpen hops perception. This is the basis for the chloride/sulfate ratio numbers you will see talked about. With the sulfate as low as it is in your water there is not much to "offset" with chloride but adding a bit of chloride almost always does mellow beer. If you were to add anything to your water I would expect calcium chloride to be your best bet. Be aware that the DWS (and I suspect the product you mentioned as well) are blends of calcium sulfate and chloride. Pure calcium chloride should be available from your home brew supplier.