Stout Bitterness: Hops v. Roasted Malt

[DBhomebrew]

Y'all are talking bitterness for an American Imperial Stout. Why seek guidance from a notoriously smooth and not bitter Irish dry stout? The style at question is specifically known for bracingly bitter hop presence. You've got to balance the FG. Yes holy roasty, but also hella hoppy.

 

[user 246304]

Y'all are talking bitterness for an American Imperial Stout. Why seek guidance from a notoriously smooth and not bitter Irish dry stout? The style at question is specifically known for bracingly bitter hop presence. You've got to balance the FG. Yes holy roasty, but also hella hoppy.

Still deciding on whether I'm going to go with Ron Pattinson's stated IBU's - 200 on OG 1.104, on the assumption that 3-4 years of laying down will significantly lower the perceived IBU's; or going closer to 135, which is what I've tweaked now. That, and whether it's nonsensical to use so much EKG for bittering at 90, 60 and 30 minutes (100% EKG) or going with a cleaner, higher-alpha hop early on.....authentically "vintage" or not.

Truthfully I have a hard time messing with tradition, but then, even Ron is doing his best to parse out just what that was, with many times sketched-out notes only; and of course we can't know what actual IBUs any of the 19th-century brewers were actually working with.

 

[user 246304]

You would think that in 2024, giant corporations would have figured out how to do things right, but then look at Popeyes.

The whole paradigm is poison, and there isn't a single industrial food corporation that isn't steeped in it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Can this be watched in the US?

There are a few American members on there so you shouldn't have any issue.

 

[Miraculix]

Still deciding on whether I'm going to go with Ron Pattinson's stated IBU's - 200 on OG 1.104, on the assumption that 3-4 years of laying down will significantly lower the perceived IBU's; or going closer to 135, which is what I've tweaked now. That, and whether it's nonsensical to use so much EKG for bittering at 90, 60 and 30 minutes (100% EKG) or going with a cleaner, higher-alpha hop early on.....authentically "vintage" or not.

Truthfully I have a hard time messing with tradition, but then, even Ron is doing his best to parse out just what that was, with many times sketched-out notes only; and of course we can't know what actual IBUs any of the 19th-century brewers were actually working with.

Won't make much of a difference. The more proteins in solution, the harder it is to get the alpha acid to isomerise. You will end up at around or slightly below 100 ibus both ways. In wort you cannot get higher than that. In high gravity wort the number is even lower.

 

[Peebee]

Can this be watched in the US?

Ah ... apologies, the video bit was on iPlayer (BBC) so there's hoops to jump through to get it in US.

But it showed what Guinness do: The roast barley is "mashed" (steeped, at about 80-90°C?) separately from the pale malt and the two extracts blended in the boiler. With the hop extract. Hence my "painting-by-numbers" comment in that thread.

Apparently: There are YouTube videos with the process explained.


(It should be obvious from my posts in that thread from the "other" brewing forum: I don't care for their antics at Guinness. Or what they've done to a once classic brew. But I thought this roast barley antic might be relevant for this thread. Whatever else I think, I wouldn't describe Guinness stout as "acrid or astringent").

 

[user 246304]

Won't make much of a difference. The more proteins in solution, the harder it is to get the alpha acid to isomerise. You will end up at around or slightly below 100 ibus both ways. In wort you cannot get higher than that. In high gravity wort the number is even lower.

Right, thanks. So dumb question, but is there any reason beyond keeping to a literal transcription of these recipes, they're written with e.g., 200 IBUs? A British brewer a couple nights ago simply recommended about 100 ibus, and something like Magnum for bittering. Sounds the way to go. Waste of good EKG.

 

[Peebee]

Maybe it is acidic, now that I think about it.

It is indeed acidic. That's why stouts need a brewing water with higher alkalinity to keep the mash ph in check.

Another result of steeping the roast barley for Guinness (perhaps the best-known stout in the world?): They brew it with low alkalinity (moorland) water.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Right, thanks. So dumb question, but is there any reason beyond keeping to a literal transcription of these recipes, they're written with e.g., 200 IBUs? A British brewer a couple nights ago simply recommended about 100 ibus, and something like Magnum for bittering. Sounds the way to go. Waste of good EKG.

Yes. A large amount of low AA hops will provide something different than the same HBU of a neutral high AA hop. If I wanted to reduce the mass of the bittering charge, I'd stick to 100IBUs and use Cluster for historical precedent. Challenger for a nice UK substitute. Northern Brewer can come through as minty, very nice in a stout.

 

[user 246304]

Yes. A large amount of low AA hops will provide something different than the same HBU of a neutral high AA hop. If I wanted to reduce the mass of the bittering charge, I'd stick to 100IBUs and use Cluster for historical precedent. Challenger for a nice UK substitute. Northern Brewer can come through as minty, very nice in a stout.

That was new to me, the idea they used Cluster, until reading Pattinson's book. That and the use of continental hops (e.g., the 1918 Courage Double Stout's Strisselspalt. I too have found that not all bittering is the same - hadn't thought so much of the relationship of a lot of low-aa v. a little of high-aa, just that different hops lend a different quality of the bittering and it's not merely plugging in IBUs from anything and "it's all the same." Just didn't know if at this IBU level, those differences efface away to basically nothing.

Thanks for the suggestions. I may just stick with the EKG (mine are currently 5.6%), though I do have a pound of Challenger at 7% and love the hop in just about every way (including a SMaSH bitter). I don't know that I've ever used Cluster. Is there some rep of this very thing we're talking about, that some find Cluster a bit "harsh" or "unclean" in bitterness quality? (Edit: May be totally misremembering. I think I recall a member talking about this quality and Target, but don't recall who, or where I saw it).

Never could really get on board with Northern Brewer too much. Might be that very quality you mention, minty, as I and mint are generally not friends.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Thanks for the suggestions. I may just stick with the EKG (mine are currently 5.6%), though I do have a pound of Challenger at 7% and love the hop in just about every way (including a SMaSH bitter). I don't know that I've ever used Cluster. Is there some rep of this very thing we're talking about, that some find Cluster a bit "harsh" or "unclean" in bitterness quality?

For a while I was doing Challenger/EKG pales and Cluster/Fuggle milds, stouts, etc. No scientific method there, just felt like the thing to do. Then I hit on a batch of grapefruity EKG and I went off it for a bit. Northern_Brewer has commented on it. Something about particular year's weather. My most recent bag of EKG wasn't grapefruity, but it was only ~4.3% if I recall.

I'd stick to your EKG and see how it goes.

 

[Bobby_M]

An Imperial stout should have about half the IBU as OG gravity, so like 1.120 and 60ibu. It always tastes like it's way too much until you get some aging. Of course additional counterbalance from roast and alcohol.

 

[DBhomebrew]

An Imperial stout should have about half the IBU as OG gravity, so like 1.120 and 60ibu. It always tastes like it's way too much until you get some aging. Of course additional counterbalance from roast and alcohol.

How widespread through the style (modern American RIS, I presume) is that? Ol' Raspy is 9% and 75IBU.

 

[user 246304]

An Imperial stout should have about half the IBU as OG gravity, so like 1.120 and 60ibu. It always tastes like it's way too much until you get some aging. Of course additional counterbalance from roast and alcohol.

Bobby, I'd have to push back on that one, especially for beers intended to lay down 4-5 years. I suspect it would end up as cloying at least for me. Each to their own of course, but as a point of reference Ray Daniels' Designing Great Beers gives Imperials at average BU:GU .90, and suggests in his summary about 1.0.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I'll do a final report maybe next week, after the bubbles and temperature are where I want them.

Beersmith has 44 IBU, and the OG was 1.085, so the guidelines Bobby_M gave seem to put me close to the standard. I really suspect that a pound of table sugar might make this better.

I am thinking of changing the name from Steppe Brother to KGB Boot Polish.

 

[DBhomebrew]

If you accept 50:100 as the standard for the style, sure.

Pound of table sugar. How'd it make it 'better'? What is 'better'? I thought this thread was about a little more bitterness.

Along those lines, getting the BU:GU into the center of the guidelines might be 'better'.

 

[Bobby_M]

Bobby, I'd have to push back on that one, especially for beers intended to lay down 4-5 years. I suspect it would end up as cloying at least for me. Each to their own of course, but as a point of reference Ray Daniels' Designing Great Beers gives Imperials at average BU:GU .90, and suggests in his summary about 1.0.

Sure, there are variations in opinion and a wide allowance for bitterness level per the style (medium to aggressive). FG and roast level play a part in the perceived bitterness as well. If you approach it as a bigger version of a typical American Stout, the IBUs would be maxed out.

 

[user 246304]

Sure, there are variations in opinion and a wide allowance for bitterness level per the style (medium to aggressive). FG and roast level play a part in the perceived bitterness as well. If you approach it as a bigger version of a typical American Stout, the IBUs would be maxed out.

Of course, the more the merrier. I still wonder though on the difference between a BU:GU .65 at 6 months v. a 1.25 at 5 years. I seem to recall someone actually talking about this somewhere, can't remember where - but the hugely hopped/BU, long-aged RIS on paper actually was perceived as somewhat sweeter than the younger, lower hopped stout. Wish I had 5 lives left to do a study.....

 

[kevin58]

I've made some Ron Pattinson historic Stout recipes that call for insane amounts of hops and they were fantastic. Not overly bitter, definitely not cloyingly sweet. Zero roast/dark malt astringency. I aged them for 12 months minimum before tasting.

 

[Bobby_M]

Another random data point for ya'll. I just popped my last known bottle of stout brewed 12 years ago in this video

Not exactly the same ratio I was talking about, but nonetheless it wasn't too sweet. It is definitely one of the more roasty grain bills (40 SRM).

 

[user 246304]

Another random data point for ya'll. I just popped my last known bottle of stout brewed 12 years ago in this video

Not exactly the same ratio I was talking about, but nonetheless it wasn't too sweet. It is definitely one of the more roasty grain bills (40 SRM).

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That's awesome, Bobby. Kudos man! And wasn't aware of your channel until just now - just subscribed.