STILL NO HEAD

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
AngryAndy

AngryAndy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
99
Reaction score
12
Location
Niagara Falls, Ontario, CAN
So......................... about a month ago I posted that I was having terrible luck with head retention. I was advised to double check my cleaning process, wash glasses super clean and above all else stop the practice of rolling/shaking my keg to carb it.

Shortly afterwards I made an easy drinking beer with 1oz Warrior and 1oz Cascade. Just a standard, run of the mill grain bill with 2 row and a couple pounds of specialty. I carb'd it last week. I took someones advise from here and I set the keg to 30psi for 36 hours. Than I dropped it down to 12psi and left it for a week. Off the pour I've got okay head, about an inch. In a matter of 1 to 2 minutes it fizzes away to a thin head with a white foam ring at the glasses edge. WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING WRONG!!!! I've never had this issue. This is four brews in a row.

Could it be my cleaning practices? I use Star-San and dip everything in one of those long wallpaper water holders. After each keg is done I put starsan in it and shake it up. I than run it through my lines.....

Please, can someone fix this annoying issue?

Thanks.
 
@ Angry I struggled with head retention until I started including about 1/2 pound of wheat malt in the grain bill. Results: Nice, long-lasting, 1" head, with lacing. Wheat is neutral in flavor and does not change the intended results. Note: Wheat grains are not the same size as barley, so I always have them milled separately.
 
brewgar,

First off, thanks so much for the reply. I am going to order wheat malt today. I've done some reading on similar malts like carafoam helping with head. do you think i should do a pound of both in the next brew just to make sure? Or could i do a pound of the wheat to make sure it works?

Your thoughts?
 
What is your starting OG? The higher the OG, the better the head (at least for me). Below 1.05 it gets harder and harder to get a stable head.

Flaked wheat or wheat malt certainly helps a lot!
 
It has to do with a lot of things, but I’ve found a mash rest at 162 for 30 minutes does the trick.
 
hi schematix, thanks for the response. My worry is that i've read (somewhere) that any mashing around 160ish or higher makes for a sweeter maltier beer. I hate that. I want dry. Whats your opinion. Also if I was going to try your method: would I hit 162 first, let it mash for 30min and than drop it down to 158 or whatever the recipe calls for and mash another hour?
 
Ive never had to compensate for head retention by adding wheat malt. And I'd go with carapils before wheat anyway. I forget if you mentioned or not, has this always been a problem or is this something new
 
Thanks for posting Desert Sky. I did LME/DME for about 5 years and switched to all grain at Christmas. So I never had the problem with extract and I've made 6 all grain brews. The first three were fine. Good head the others have sucked. I've just order a black lager recipe all grain. I bought an additional pound of wheat malt and carafoam to make me sleep better at night. What are your thoughts?
 
AngryAndy said:
hi schematix, thanks for the response. My worry is that i've read (somewhere) that any mashing around 160ish or higher makes for a sweeter maltier beer. I hate that. I want dry. Whats your opinion. Also if I was going to try your method: would I hit 162 first, let it mash for 30min and than drop it down to 158 or whatever the recipe calls for and mash another hour?
Click to expand...

Mash in around 144-148, hold for 30-50 minutes, then raise to 162 and hold for 30, then raise to 171 and hold for 10.

This gets you conversion efficiency, attenuation, body and head.

If you want even more dryness add a 10 minute rest at 153.
 
Let's discuss the dispensing system. How long are your serving lines, and does the beer blast out of there? Sometimes short serving lines can cause the c02 to break out of solution, creating head but then that dissipates quickly. Do you get any lacing on the glass?
 
schematix, I will try your advise Monday (brew day). I will follow it. Thanks.
So, I'll do:
148f for 45min, 153f for 10min, 162f for 30min and 171f 10minutes. than i'll mash out.


schematix, good?
 
To get a decent head imo it shouldn't be needed to mash low, or high, or not shake the keg. You will get a better head if you mash high and low, but a decent one should just be there by itself.

Are your lines clean, and did you clean your class with for example caustic soda, with a brush that has not been used for cleaning dishes (with fatty food)?

Are your lines balanced?
 
I believe my lines are clean. I fill an empty keg with starsan and fill the lines for a few days prior to putting a keg of beer on. as far as balanced....i don't know what that is.
 
AngryAndy said:
schematix, I will try your advise Monday (brew day). I will follow it. Thanks.
So, I'll do:
148f for 45min, 153f for 10min, 162f for 30min and 171f 10minutes. than i'll mash out.


schematix, good?
Click to expand...

Should work.... the 148 number has to be varied based on your gelatinization temps. 148 is pretty safe that you're warm enough, but it's really a little high for beta-amylase.

If you REALLY want to cover all your bases do:
144 20 min (higher beta activity but close to gel temp)
148 20 min (lower beta activity but almost always above gel temp)
153 10-20 min (insurance against really high gel temp, no beta, some alpha activity, will aid in attenuation)
162 30 min (alpha rest - makes for good body and good foam)
171 10 min (mash out - helps lautering and foam)
 
AngryAndy said:
I believe my lines are clean. I fill an empty keg with starsan and fill the lines for a few days prior to putting a keg of beer on. as far as balanced....i don't know what that is.
Click to expand...

A balanced line is a line which gives you the correct amount of co2 still dissolved in the beer when it reaches the glass. You want some co2 to escape as you pour the beer, to create the head, and you need an amount of co2 to stay dissolved in the beer so it will be released over time, to sort of "feed" the head over time. This is why beers go flat over time in the glass.

Its resistance in the line vs temperature. Resistance is the sum of ID and length of the line.

The higher the temperature of the keg, the more you need to pressurize it to give you a correct carbonation in the keg. A balanced line will keep an amount of co2 still in solution, so it can come out of solution over time, giving you a head that lasts. If you have a good head initially, but the beer seems undercarbonated to the tongue, the resistance in the line is to low as most co2 escapes and ends up as foam, but you have no "reserve" of co2 in the beer to keep that head going over time. A balanced line will keep co2 still in solution, so it can release from the beer over time.

An unbalanced line the other way (to much resistance) will pour slowly, and keep very much co2 in solution, giving you less head initially and more carbonation in the beer (if the line is cooled, if not the co2 will come out of solution in the line due to higher temperature).
 
schematix thanks for the step-by-step. I've copy and pasted the instructions. Regardless of recipe I'm going to try your process to ensure.

bleme. thx. reading the link now
 
Smelly, let me ask you. Often I find my first pour is the best one for head retention. The second and third pours are where I really start to notice the lack of head. Lets assume that the keg is a few degrees cooler than the line up near the serving tower. What should i do?
 
AngryAndy said:
Smelly, let me ask you. Often I find my first pour is the best one for head retention. The second and third pours are where I really start to notice the lack of head. Lets assume that the keg is a few degrees cooler than the line up near the serving tower. What should i do?
Click to expand...

Is the carbonation in the mouth the same? It might be that you're pouring out "stuff" with the first pour since if you have "stuff" it will be settled to the bottom and poured out with the first pour creating lots of tiny nucleation points in the glass. Like tiny hop debris, polyphenols and such. The taste would also be different.

And also, after the first pour the miniaure-cracks in the glass has been filled, leaving you with less nucleation in the glass for the second and onwards pour. I can go through several glasses in one sitting. Your lips touching the edge of the glass also have an impact over time, as your lips does not salivate a base cleaner.
 
Last edited:
Smelly, the mouth feel/carb is good. some brews after a pour the liquid beer in the body of the glass looks like a Coor's commercial. The last beer I made didn't even have lacing. This one is a decent head on pint one, and garage (lacing only) on the second, third, fourth and fifth. After that I pass out and can't remember
 
AngryAndy said:
Smelly, the mouth feel/carb is good. some brews after a pour the liquid beer in the body of the glass looks like a Coor's commercial. The last beer I made didn't even have lacing. This one is a decent head on pint one, and garage (lacing only) on the second, third, fourth and fifth. After that I pass out and can't remember
Click to expand...

If you pass out and can't remember, then do as Tom Cruise. Repeat. You should get a feeling if the head is sub-par on day two comparing to day one?

And if the beer looks like a Coor's commercial I must say that you're doing a damn fine job if you're after a clear beer :)

I can't help you to a pinpoint of your issue. All I can say is what I've already said, together with good cleaning ( get the cleaning agent out of the glass, hot water). It shouldn't look like a hefeweizen, but it shouldn't go insta-flat if you line is balanced and you have enough proteins in the beer, which all AG-beers have, unless you boil t like hell.
 
smellly, one last thing. I checked out a beer line length calculator. it says for 5ft of hose i need 7psi. maybe i'm tremendously over pressured and under balanced? Of course I have to measure my line when I get home from work.
 
AngryAndy said:
smellly, one last thing. I checked out a beer line length calculator. it says for 5ft of hose i need 7psi. maybe i'm tremendously over pressured and under balanced? Of course I have to measure my line when I get home from work.
Click to expand...
AngryAndy said:
smellly, one last thing. I checked out a beer line length calculator. it says for 5ft of hose i need 7psi. maybe i'm tremendously over pressured and under balanced? Of course I have to measure my line when I get home from work.
Click to expand...

You also need to know the ID of the hose. Is it a garden hose or a 3/16".

I'm running 5ft (150cm) at 4C and about 0.7-0.8 bar with 3/16".
 
its thin, I'll double check at home but i'm sure its 3/16, 3ft from centre of keg to tower tap, about 3C, i've got it set right now to about 14 or 15psi....that i know for sure.

the math on the calculation website suggests about 6, 7psi for that length, temp and diameter
 
Have you recently switched dishwasher detergent or rinse aid? Do you wash your beer glasses with other dishes in the dishwasher?

While I wholeheartedly agree with the Hochkurz mash schedule, if the above are issues it may not be the solution. Detergents and rinse aids reduce/eliminate water spots. They also kill beer foam. Likewise, if washing with greasy plates and bowls the resulting film can kill beer foam.

Hochkurz: β rest between 144-148 °F, and α rest at 162-163 °F with prolonged mashout (>= 10 min) at 172 °F.

As recommended, you may consider performing 2 β rests, with β1 at 144 °F and β2 at 147-148 °F.

Your β rests should target extract and attenuation, your α rest is the body rest. The prolonged mashout aids in foam appearance and foam stability.

The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added. Due to its large volume the mash temperature should not drop much during that rest but you may wrap the pot into blankets to stabilize the mash temp even more.

The dextrinization rest at 70-72C (158-162F) needs to be held until the mash is iodine negative but may be extended to 45-60 min. Many authors contribute head retention and mouthfeel benefits to extending this rest.

Finally the mash may be raised to mash out temp and subsequently lautered.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Infusion_Mashing
 
Last edited:
AngryAndy said:
its thin, I'll double check at home but i'm sure its 3/16, 3ft from centre of keg to tower tap, about 3C, i've got it set right now to about 14 or 15psi....that i know for sure.

the math on the calculation website suggests about 6, 7psi for that length, temp and diameter
Click to expand...
You're overcarbed if we use the reference of 5g/l co2 (about 2.5 vols), and your hose is about half the length of what it should be at that carbonation.
 
Last edited:
smelly, should i just try setting it to the correct pressure, for instance 6psi NOT 15!!!!! and see what happens.? Or double the line length. (obviously measure and all that). Like you said earlier, the unbalance (over carb'ing) could be making the foam explode at the top and disapear.
 
I only use Oxy on all my beer glasses. Squeeky clean. But I'm one who doesn't really worry about beer head. As long as it taste good, that's all I'm after.
 
AngryAndy said:
smelly, should i just try setting it to the correct pressure, for instance 6psi NOT 15!!!!! and see what happens.? Or double the line length. (obviously measure and all that). Like you said earlier, the unbalance (over carb'ing) could be making the foam explode at the top and disapear.
Click to expand...

Don't double the line length, The length is fine, 150cm. It'd rather tamper with the temperature, I myself find that 3C is at least 1C to cold for serving. Then you need to adjust the pressure accordingly.

For instance, from my sheet I have hanging here: 4C = 0.8 bar. Take that as a ballpark and adjust. That should work with 150cm line.
 
3/16" beer line isn't thin. Regular vinyl tubing is thin and not meant for beer. Not sure if that's what you are using or not. You did mention "thin" in one of your posts so it got me thinking.
If you are using a kegerator, I've seen some of the beer lines they come with. Most are thinner than the 3/16" beer line you can get at your LHBS or online site.
 

Similar threads

Architect-Dave
Poor Head but Beer is Fizzy
Replies
1
Views
431
RM-MN
R
Tony B
First batch
Replies
10
Views
698
Kornssj
Kornssj
brew_mama
Out of ideas - flat beer from keg
Replies
3
Views
702
day_trippr
day_trippr
T
Acetobacter recurring infections
Replies
7
Views
713
Tancred the Brewer
T
VTMongoose
Excessive sulfur (H2S) production during Hefeweizen fermentation with W68 (WY3068/WLP300/OYL-21) that lingers
Replies
23
Views
1K
AlcheMania
AlcheMania

Latest posts

Back
Top