Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[trav77]

It's been mentioned a number of times already but +1 on ditching the bucket. Get a 6.5 gallon glass carboy or something non-permeable to O2. Keg straight from primary after 1-2 weeks depending on when your FG is stable. If you want clearer beer, try the Brulosophy gelatin method.

Also +1 on ripping apart your cold side ball valves. I did mine yesterday after reading this and yuck!

Which led me to ripping apart my faucets and replacing beer lines while I was at it. Essentially disassemble everything on your cold side process, clean and reassemble.

My money is not on water issues or any subtle mineral tweaks etc since you've been using a variety of waters including RO.

 

[mongoose33]

This is probably of little help, but this thread has been an interesting sociological observation. Everybody wants to see you succeed.

FWIW, I *am* a sociologist, and IMO you're right.

I've long been intrigued by these virtual communities, and the general willingness to help out others. Hard to know if it's innate in home brewers or if it's a result of all of us having had trouble and appreciating the help we've received from others--and thus, returning the favor.

What I find especially interesting is that even though there is disagreement as to what it might be, the conversation doesn't descend into "you moron, it can't be that" kind of discourse. I still think the water has something to do with this (others disagree) because the effect he experiences is worse in the darker beers, stouts and porters. I could be wrong, but nobody's calling me an idiot for suggesting it.

I'm of the idea that it has GOT to be more than one thing. And an educated guess says both autolysis and oxidation. At their most mild, together, the combo can come off as "stale" or otherwise indescribably "off." Let it go longer and you may see how it can get worse. My reasoning is the very long primary in a bucket - buckets are more likely to leak air after completed fermentation and the long time could be contributing to yeast health issues. The possibility is also likely that you're particularly sensitive to the off flavor effects of each of these, which could be why others aren't detecting it as severely as you are.

As an aside, I'm a researcher--I teach the scientific method to students and the nature of the beast is trying to eliminate alternative explanations of whatever we think is happening, ending up (hopefully) at the one true effect.

That's also what interests me about this--people trying to identify possible causes for the problem, and then hopefully eliminate them one by one.

The most difficult problems are the ones you suggest, where there's more than one cause producing similar results. Very difficult to debug. Our inclination, and it's quite reasonable, is to change one variable and see what happens. But suppose it's both oxidation and, say, the racking tube introducing infection. You do something different to avoid oxidation, and the racking tube is still spoiling it. You then go back to the previous method, and this time change the racking tube...and same result.

I hope you're wrong about it, and fear you may be right. We may never get a definitive answer if that's the case.

My suggestion for what to do may get me lynched on this forum, but here goes: rack to a glass or PET carboy as soon as you can after terminal gravity is reached, making sure it's one that can be filled to the neck. Let it sit for a couple more weeks or until you're ready to keg it, but I'd say no more than 2 more weeks if you can help it.

That sounds like a reasonable way to test for oxidation.

 

[Qhrumphf]

When the end result is unacceptable, I see no problem making a complete overhaul and changing multiple factors at once. It's when the results are good and looking to make small improvement or you're experimenting directly as the actual goal that incremental isolated changes are good.

So by all means, make all the changes you want. If the end result comes out better either stick with all the changes or scale back and isolate if so desired.

 

[ImNoExpert]

I'll have to check previous recipes for the American crystal Malt.
Honestly, I've done nothing to the sparge water except to add gypsum and calcium chloride. I was under the assumption that PH didn't matter so much in sparge water?

Sparge water should be acidified to below a PH of 6 to avoid extracting tannins that will give a beer an astringent (overly dry or bitter) taste.

From Bru'n Water:

"Minor increases in wort or beer pH can create problems in the finished beer. Increased wort and beer pH makes the beer’s bittering perception more ‘coarse’ and less favorable. The isomerization of alpha acids during the boil is increased slightly as wort pH increases, which may add to the coarseness. Increased pH in wort and the finished beer slows the reduction and removal of diacetyl from beer during maturation. During mashing, a pH greater than 6.0 can leach harsh-tasting silicates, tannins, and polyphenols from the grain into the wort (Briggs et. al., 1981). Adjusting sparge water pH to between 5.5 and 6.0 helps avoid raising the mash pH above 6.0 during sparging."

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sparge water should be acidified to below a PH of 6 to avoid extracting tannins that will give a beer an astringent (overly dry or bitter) taste.

From Bru'n Water:

"Minor increases in wort or beer pH can create problems in the finished beer. Increased wort and beer pH makes the beer’s bittering perception more ‘coarse’ and less favorable. The isomerization of alpha acids during the boil is increased slightly as wort pH increases, which may add to the coarseness. Increased pH in wort and the finished beer slows the reduction and removal of diacetyl from beer during maturation. During mashing, a pH greater than 6.0 can leach harsh-tasting silicates, tannins, and polyphenols from the grain into the wort (Briggs et. al., 1981). Adjusting sparge water pH to between 5.5 and 6.0 helps avoid raising the mash pH above 6.0 during sparging."

If he's sparging with RO water it's not necessary as the water has no real buffering capacity, and will not appreciably raise the pH. With brewing water pH never matters as much as alkalinity.

 

[AttenuatingCircumstances]

I've looked over about half of the replies in this thread and I haven't seen anyone mention this specifically yet so I apologize if it has been brought up before, but how are you cleaning your boiling pot? Was it used for cooking food before it was used for brewing? Maybe there's something in there?

 

[-CHRIS-]

You need to go back and read all his replies.

1) other people have noticed the off flavors, but he admits to high expectations, but not getting close.
2) he has done solid recipes.
3) he has stated that he rehydrates dry yeast and makes starters with liquid yeast.
4) he has used bottled water as well as RO with adjustments. Messing with water chemistry is necessary when using RO water as the process strips the water of necessary minerals.
5) he has listed his processes and though he has the "swiss army knife" he seems to be using it properly.

A simplification might help lead to the problem though. For example: Doing a BIAB batch of a simple ale, limited malts and simple hopping schedule, using US05 rehydrated, 2 weeks primary in a new vessel, and bottling it.

But then again if you got good results that way and could not figure out why the difference, then went more complicated and got poor results, no progress would have been made.

He is following a lot of unnecessary steps and no one has any idea which one is causing the problem. Use bottled water, buy enough yeast to pitch without making a starter, use a proven recipe. It really isn't hard to make good beer with a proven recipe. I have dozens of tasty batches under my belt using tap water, not acidifying the sparge, and just buying enough yeast. I am so comfortable with my process now I start with RO/DI, make my own starters, etc. I only grew the complexity one step at a time.

He can start adding things back in one by one and see if they make the beer better or worse. That is how he makes progress, start with the bare minimum and only change one variable during each progressive brew.

A "stale" taste almost makes me think his brew is undercarbonated.

Chris

 

[alexacuna]

I made a few batches of beer on yeast cakes and it turned out less than desired. Otherwise they have been great. The yeast cake ones were awful.

 

[mprowland]

He is following a lot of unnecessary steps and no one has any idea which one is causing the problem. Use bottled water, buy enough yeast to pitch without making a starter, use a proven recipe. It really isn't hard to make good beer with a proven recipe. I have dozens of tasty batches under my belt using tap water, not acidifying the sparge, and just buying enough yeast. I am so comfortable with my process now I start with RO/DI, make my own starters, etc. I only grew the complexity one step at a time.

He can start adding things back in one by one and see if they make the beer better or worse. That is how he makes progress, start with the bare minimum and only change one variable during each progressive brew.

A "stale" taste almost makes me think his brew is undercarbonated.

Chris

I started out this way. I only started changing things up when I couldn't get the results that I should have been getting.

I clean my kettle by scrubbing lightly with a green scotch-brite pad. I usually rinse it out right after the boil so not much scrubbing is needed. I typically don't use any cleaners or solvents. Sometimes a clean rag is all that is needed.

I have a little bit of money coming my way so I'm going to change things up a bit....
-I'm going to buy a couple of new fermenters; either glass or the stainless buckets from SSbretech. I want to take plastic and the need for a siphon out of the equation.
-I may buy a new brew kettle(although I don't see why my keggle would be suspect).
-Ph meter
-I'm removing the beer off the yeast case as soon as the F.G stabilizes.
-I'm swapping out the valves in my brew kettle and mashtun to 3-piece valves(if I don't buy a brew kettle).
-Instead of spraying everything with StarSan, I'm going to soak it in Starsan.
-I'm going to purge my kegs before and after I fill them up.
-I'm no longer going to use a strainer for the wort. (I thought about adding O2 but I don't want to add another potential problem into the picture).
I know everyone will say change your water but I just don't see the need. The water I've "made" with R.O. and salts has tasted damn good.(for water anyway) I also don't want to spend $10 for every batch. My beer has tasted the same regardless of water anyways
I'm sure I'll make a few more changes but this all I can think of for now.

Thanks again for everyone's help
Mark

 

[Moose_MI]

Did anyone answer your original question regarding a place to send your beer for an analysis? I will send you $5 to send me a couple bottles. I'm an idiot as a beer judge but your process looks pretty freaking good and I'm curious wtf you're tasting. I can't promise quality technical analysis but it can't be any worse than continuing to have darts tossed at the board.

I will say again that I'm not a beer judge...I'm just someone who's curiosity is killing them....cheers!

 

[zwiller]

Add me to others that have offered, I am also happy to offer my thoughts I am BJCP. Honestly, having a club checking it out with multiple folks/judges is the best.

Whatever it is, once you ID and fix, you will be making some nice beer as your process is pretty sound IMO. Great ideas so far. Hang in there!

I have to ask: When was the TDS meter last calibrated? I helped a guy through a similar issue and it was found that the RO water he was using was BAD. On a whim he sent a sample to Ward Labs and BINGO! TDS meter he relied on at store was shot. BTW, your tap water should be fine to brew with but first things first.

My suggestion would be on next batch brew a simple ale, use all DISTILLED water, forgo the rehydration and direct pitch, ferment 3-5 days, crash cool a few more and keg that bad boy. Normal ales of mine hit the tap 10-14 day tops. So all in all, maybe high pH and that will make any oxidation problems go from bad to worse fast.

 

[crusader1612]

I clean my kettle by scrubbing lightly with a green scotch-brite pad. I usually rinse it out right after the boil so not much scrubbing is needed. I typically don't use any cleaners or solvents. Sometimes a clean rag is all that is needed.

.... I never use anthing abrasive when cleaning, anthingthat can scratch or tarnish the kettle/,mashtun etc.

Thinking in this vein, maybe its something on this side?
If that is the case, buy one of these.... www.grainfather.com (they're awesome)
dial in you ferm temps (buy a fridge) as thing will femernt a few degrees warmer than ambient suggests.
those led strip i found are not that accurate. i had one and found it was 3 degrees different.

i now make consistently good beer, usingtap water only (granted I have good water).

just a thought.

 

[kh54s10]

He is following a lot of unnecessary steps and no one has any idea which one is causing the problem. Use bottled water, buy enough yeast to pitch without making a starter, use a proven recipe. It really isn't hard to make good beer with a proven recipe. I have dozens of tasty batches under my belt using tap water, not acidifying the sparge, and just buying enough yeast. I am so comfortable with my process now I start with RO/DI, make my own starters, etc. I only grew the complexity one step at a time.

He can start adding things back in one by one and see if they make the beer better or worse. That is how he makes progress, start with the bare minimum and only change one variable during each progressive brew.

A "stale" taste almost makes me think his brew is undercarbonated.

Chris

I don't agree that he is following a lot of unnecessary steps in his brewing. From what he described in his processes, they are pretty much the same as most everyone else.

He has used proven recipes, has made the starters, etc.

He has made a lot of changes trying to make things better without a real step by step procedure. What I notice is that he says the flavor is the same with all the changes. I would expect some changes to create one off flavor and other changes to make a different off flavor.

It really makes me wonder how anyone can have such a problem without being able to find the cause. I have done over 80 batches and have not had any that were undrinkable. I have one in a keg that I am only using for cooking with... and others that were not great. But most (to me and my friends) are as good as anything I can buy.

I don't really do anything special. I used a Brita filter and now a house charcoal filter with tap water. I don't know how much chlorine or chloramine are in the water and have never treated for it. I batch sparge and have never taken a pH reading. I have gotten a water analysis and have treated only one batch. I did not see much of a difference, if any.

Well, hopefully the OP can find a good starting point where he gets good results then expand on that.

 

[CrowbarKarl]

Is there a place where I can send off a couple bottles and have them tell me what's wrong with my beer? I've made 30+ all-grain batches now and almost everyone of them has been barely drinkable. I have yet to make a beer that I would pay money for. I'm done trying to troubleshoot as I've tried just about everything(too long to list here). I've tried a few brewers locally and they couldn't tell me. I'm at wits end and am sick of dumping gallons upon gallons down the drain. Thanks for any input......Mark

Ok. I haven't read through all the responses but let's just dive into it. First, you need to be able to describe what you are tasting, what are your fermentation temps, what water are you using, what is your FG on a given beer, etc.

EQUIPMENT:
-If you have equipment with threaded fittings, I would suggest taking it all apart and giving it a good soaking in PBW or Oxyclean Free in 120 degree water or so followed by a rinse in the same water. Use the blue scotch brite pads vs. the green. They won't scratch depending on the surface. Also, repasivate the SS (many documents on that). I hope you are using as many stainless steel parts as possible. If you are using some sort of hose, get new hose.
-Ditch plastic buckets. I still prefer glass carboys. They are easy to clean by filling with warm, NOT BOILING (don't thermally shock the glass or it will break) and PBW or Oxyclean free.
-If you are using pumps, make sure to clean those out as well with the same process as above.
-If you are using a CFC, it is a good place to harbor bacteria and what not. I recently switched to an immersion chiller or get a CFC that you can verify that is clean such as a Jaded Brewing counterflow chiller.
-Make sure everything is thoroughly sanitized. I use Starsan
-Make sure your thermometers are calibrated against others
-Make sure your hydrometers are calibrated using distilled water at 60 degrees
-DO NOT crush your grains too finely. You run the risk of tannin extraction, which could explain some of your off flavors. Set your mill gap appropriately. There are also threads about spraying a bit of water on the grains before milling to keep the husk intact. It does work, but I stopped doing it.
-LEARN YOUR SYSTEM AND YOUR EFFICIENCIES. Use software like Beersmith to help dial in your system.

CLEAN AND CHEMICALS
-I mainly just use PBW or Oxyclean free for cleaning and Star San for sanitizing. I always clean immediately when I'm done to help avoid hard deposits later.
-Don't use bleach and learn how the chemicals affect different metals. John Palmer has good info in his book How To Brew on this topic.
-Do you have brass parts? You need to "pickle" them as outlined in the above book.

WATER AND MASHING
-If you are using crap water, then your beer will taste like crap. I use RO I fill at the store for $1.50 per 5 gallons.
-Whatever water you use, send it away to get tested. You can get Beer Test Kits sent to you from Ward Laboratories or others. Once you get this info, plug it into spreadsheet like Bru'n Water. This will help you get desired PH for a certain type of beer.
-To coincide with above, to help lower PH on light colored beers and accentuate bitterness, add gypsum to the mash. To help raise PH of darker beers due to the roasted acidic malts, use items like Baking Soda or Pickling Lime to raise the PH to appropriate levels.
-Make sure your mash temps are correct. Mid to high 140s for dry beers like IPA (activate beta amylase) and mid to higher 150s for sweeter beers like stouts (activate alpha amylase).

RECIPE FORMULATION
-Often times in recipes, less is more. If your IPA isn't dry enough, throw a pound of corn sugar for a 5 gallon batch. Don't use a ton of caramel malts in lighter beers.
-Use other recipes to help formulate your own or try to do a clone to see how close you can get to calibrate your brewing process.
-Take good readings after fermentation and tasting notes. If you don't know what you are tasting, how the hell can you improve it. If an IPA finished high, it could be improper PH or conversion, like of viable yeasts, poor fermentation temp, poor mash temp, etc.

FERMENTATION
-This step could be the most important. Make a yeast starter no matter the beer or how fresh the yeast. Use a program like yeastcalculator.com on how to make an appropriate yeast starter and easy calculators for you. Not enough yeast, especially on a big beer, will stress the yeast and create off flavors.
-Be able to control your fermentation temps. Let ales for the most part start in the mid 60's and let rise towards the end of primary fermentation. GIVE IT TIME to suck up their by products and do a diacetyl rest. Remember, the yeasts will produce more estery beers at the higher end of their temp range. Some beers, like saisons, that is part of the aroma and taste. For clean beers like IPAs, you typically want a "clean" yeast and hit the sweet spot of that particular strain.
-Avoid oxygen after fermentation. Don't splash the beer into a bottling bucket or keg. Oxygen becomes the enemy. Make sure your keg lids are sealing or replace all the gaskets. I buy the extra fat and spongy gaskets for the lids.

Overall, do the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method in the beginning. If your water tastes good use it. Buy healthy yeast and buy several packs for a given beer or make a yeast starter. Know your process before brew day and practice good cleaning/sanitation habits. Provide your beer with good fermentation temps as best as possible. Lastly, take good notes!

Educate yourself. Listen to podcasts like the brewing network provides. Sooo much good info on those podcasts.

Don't expect to buy a kit and dump a bag in a pot and call it beer. It doesn't have to be hard, but at least know your process, losses, and equipment.

I have 2 systems: a HERMS (tri-clover fittings and pumps) and a BIAB SS pot with no pump. I know both of them inside and out. If I want to whip out a quick 5 gallon batch, I use the simplicity of my BIAB. I have dialed it in over batches learning how much water I lose, temp loss, etc.

I hope that helped. If you explain in great detail your equipment and your process, I think we can dial it in for you. Start easy and use a tried and true recipe.

 

[CrowbarKarl]

I'll see if I can explain my process in a fairly brief manner: I start off by heating up roughly 4-gallons of mash water in a stainless pot. In the past I've used bottled water, now I use R.O. with salt additions using BruN water. I taste the water after the additions and it tastes as good as any. I heat the water up to 170-ish degrees and dump it into my 10-gallon mash tun with a false bottom. I leave the water in there until it cools to around 165 degrees. Once I get this temperature, I add the grain. I mix it all up for a few minutes and then read the temperature. I'm usually around 152(depending on recipe). Within the hour of mashing, I stir it up every 20 minutes and take a temp reading. I typically lose 2 degrees within the hour. I then vorlauf around 3-4 quarts until the cloudiness is gone. Once the initial volume has drained into my keggle, I then batch sparge by adding in another 5 gallons of 168 degree water, stir and let sit for ten minutes. I again vorlauf until clear. This leaves me with around 7-gallons of wort. I heat the wort up on a natural gas burner until the hot break. I back down the flame until I get a rolling boil. I add hops according to schedule. I typically boil for 60 minutes unless I'm making a really light beer in which I'll do 90 minutes. With 5 minutes left in the boil, I'll add my copper wort chiller into the wort. While I'm boiling/cooling the wort, I clean and sanitize everything. Everything in the post boil process is saturated in StarSan; bucket, lid, air lock, scissors, yeast package, hydrometer, graduated cylinder, and stainless mesh strainer. This is when I usually rehydrate my dry yeast. If I'm using liquid, I make a starter 36-48 hours in advance. I cool the wort to around the intended fermentation temp (66 degrees for the last batch). I drain the wort into a bucket through the stainless mesh strainer. This seems to aerate the wort fairly well. I then add the yeast and close it up and add StarSan to the airlock. I place the bucket in my basement which is currently 62 degrees ambient. I have a thermometer on top of the bucket for ambient temperature and a "stick on" lcd thermometer for approximate wort temperature. I also use an infrared thermometer to check the bucket temperature. The "stick on" thermometer and the infrared are always within 1 degree of each other. Currently this temperature is 4 degrees higher than ambient at 66 degrees. I check it once a day and make sure there are no swings in temperature. My basement is fairly consistent so I never expect any. After the fourth or fifth day, I'll bring the bucket up a level (I live in a quad level house) where the wort temperature raises to around 68 degrees. I then leave it as is for 4-5 weeks, I don't use a secondary. When it's time to keg, I completely disassemble the keg and clean and sanitize. I rack the beer into the keg avoiding any splashing. I take F.G. reading and it usually is spot on. Once the keg is full, I attach Co2 and then purge for 10-15 seconds. I place the keg into my fridge at 10 PSI and let it sit for a week. I've also force carbonated with the same results. With my last batch, the off-flavor was present going into the keg. That's it in a nut shell. I've also replaced buckets, airlocks, hoses, valves and many other things. The one thing I haven't done yet is add O2 to the wort. I've had great beer made by others without it so I don't know if it's completely necessary. See any glaring faults in my technique? Thanks for reading!

I see this now. Sorry for my rant above.

I'd say:
-Ditch the bucket. Your lid might not be sealing tightly and letting oxygen in. Also, too many places for bacteria to hide in scratches. Get a bubbler or better bottle or glass carboy (love glass myself). It sounds like it could be in the fermentation phase.
-Do you mill your own grain? What is the gap? It could be tannins your tasting from a really fine crush. Dial it back if so, and adjust your efficiency if you need.
-Get a gram scale if using brewing salts. Maybe too much brewing salts adding a chemical taste? Maybe not treat it at all and see what happens.
-Do you treat the sparge water or use lactic acid to bring down PH if too high? If so, could you be adding too much lactic acid?
-Invest in a PH meter if you're doing brewing salts and like I said, doesn't hurt to get whatever you use for water tested.... even if it is "RO" water. You'd be surprised what comes up on that
-Try to raise the temp closer to 70 or so after primary fermentation is done.
-Lastly, send your beer to competitions. See what other people say. They aren't your friends and they'll be honest. I often find that I scrutinize my beer more than commercial beer almost to the point where i don't enjoy it. I have to take a step back and say that my beer is at least on par with many commercial beers.

Keep brewing!

 

[ba-brewer]

I started out this way. I only started changing things up when I couldn't get the results that I should have been getting.

I clean my kettle by scrubbing lightly with a green scotch-brite pad. I usually rinse it out right after the boil so not much scrubbing is needed. I typically don't use any cleaners or solvents. Sometimes a clean rag is all that is needed.

I have a little bit of money coming my way so I'm going to change things up a bit....
-I'm going to buy a couple of new fermenters; either glass or the stainless buckets from SSbretech. I want to take plastic and the need for a siphon out of the equation.
-I may buy a new brew kettle(although I don't see why my keggle would be suspect).
-Ph meter
-I'm removing the beer off the yeast case as soon as the F.G stabilizes.
-I'm swapping out the valves in my brew kettle and mashtun to 3-piece valves(if I don't buy a brew kettle).
-Instead of spraying everything with StarSan, I'm going to soak it in Starsan.
-I'm going to purge my kegs before and after I fill them up.
-I'm no longer going to use a strainer for the wort. (I thought about adding O2 but I don't want to add another potential problem into the picture).
I know everyone will say change your water but I just don't see the need. The water I've "made" with R.O. and salts has tasted damn good.(for water anyway) I also don't want to spend $10 for every batch. My beer has tasted the same regardless of water anyways
I'm sure I'll make a few more changes but this all I can think of for now.

Thanks again for everyone's help
Mark

Before spending money on a new kettle maybe see if you can use a friends kettle to brew a batch. I would try that before spending money on a new fermentor too.

Where did you get your keggle, was it used or did you make it yourself? Have you use this keggle for all of your batches? Maybe try re-passivating it.

You mentioned sulfury, any chance you have perlick adjustable flow faucets? I seen a thread about some of those having causing a sulfury smell.

Good luck on solving your problem.

 

[eulipion2]

I still say it's oxidation from a cracked auto-siphon, and maybe too long in the bucket, but unlike many others I say you don't have to give up plastic altogether. I had good luck with standard plastic carboys for years. They're lighter than glass, and if they break you probably won't slice your hand off. I've since switched to plastic Speidel tanks with stainless SSBrewTech ball valves and love them! I know many people have good luck with the plastic Big Mouth Bubblers, which now have a ported option as well. Since the Speidel and Bubbler are ported you don't need a siphon; just make sure the tubing fits the spigot snugly and you're good to go. That said, glass can last a lifetime if treated carefully, so weigh your options.

Also, the only reason to get a new kettle is if the old one isn't big enough for your purposes. I'm sure the kettle isn't the problem.

 

[mhermetz]

When do you brew next? I'm eagerly waiting to see if you solve this.

 

[mprowland]

When do you brew next? I'm eagerly waiting to see if you solve this.

Short answer, this coming Friday.

Long answer and a slight update.....Over the last couple of days, I've had a couple of people with a more experienced "beer" palate taste my beer(thanks Genacide). They both said the same thing; a small bit of astringency. Neither one said it was that bad, I just think I (and wife) are just hyper sensitive to it. I've read that grain crush, Ph, sparge temp and roasted grains can cause this. The only variable that seems somewhat consistent is that browns, porters and stouts are noticeably worse. I've thought about adding the roasted grains at the end of the mash or cold steeping them. The only issue for my next batch is that I purchased the grains already and didn't have them separated. Is it possible to mash for only 30 minutes to reduce the time the roasted grains have contact to mash temperatures? The recipe I'm making(https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=139820) has a 1lb. of lactose. Could this possibly offset the astringency?
Other changes I've made or will make on Friday....
New Speidel fermenter
New 3 piece stainless valves on both Keggle and Mash tun
New siphon(although not needed now)
Soak not spray everything with StarSan
Transfer beer off Yeast cake after 2 weeks
Purge keg before and after transfer

Thanks again

 

[MattyIce]

Maybe your tongue is broken! Kinda like the blonde that goes to the doc. Pokes herself in the arm, "It hurts when I do this," pokes herself in the chest, "It hurts when I do this," pokes herself in the leg, "It hurts when I do this..." Doc diagnoses her with a broken finger.

Kidding but seriously...I didn't see it mentioned and a search turned up nothing, but what about your thermometer?

 

[mprowland]

Maybe your tongue is broken! Kinda like the blonde that goes to the doc. Pokes herself in the arm, "It hurts when I do this," pokes herself in the chest, "It hurts when I do this," pokes herself in the leg, "It hurts when I do this..." Doc diagnoses her with a broken finger.

Kidding but seriously...I didn't see it mentioned and a search turned up nothing, but what about your thermometer?

Funny! There have been several people(other than myself) who noticed that my beer is just "off", although they can't describe what's wrong. They're normally "one and done" when they have one of my beers.
I have a thermometer from thermoworks. I did go through a few before I found one that was fairly accurate.

 

[trav77]

This does sound to me like some brews I did before adjusting mash AND sparge pH with acid. Getting the pH dialled in with BrunWater really helped and I haven't noticed that slight front end taste of slight stale/astringent flavour.

 

[mprowland]

This does sound to me like some brews I did before adjusting mash AND sparge pH with acid. Getting the pH dialled in with BrunWater really helped and I haven't noticed that slight front end taste of slight stale/astringent flavour.

Thanks for mentioning the sparge water. I've never done this before and definitely will this coming Friday.

 

[McKnuckle]

If you are estimating mash pH when you construct your water, shoot for 5.5 on the dark beers. For me, it softens the edges of a roasty beer very nicely.

 

[Rhaop]

Astringency is an annoying off flavor i never detected it in my beers until after packaging and only one of my friends could detect it and he blamed it on me using rice hulls lol, i experienced it for the first time after switching to full volume BiaB mashing, it really only affected my lighter beers, if your dark beers are worst off it could be that your mash ph is dipping too low

Good luck

 

[rmyurick]

I guess a couple more hints would be in order: don't over-sparge (I think most people say to cut it off when your runnings reach 1.010, temp.-adjusted, but you can stop earlier; also, you can taste to see if it's getting too astringent). Also, don't sparge too hot--I shoot for 170, but 168 would be even better.

 

[mprowland]

I guess a couple more hints would be in order: don't over-sparge (I think most people say to cut it off when your runnings reach 1.010, temp.-adjusted, but you can stop earlier; also, you can taste to see if it's getting too astringent). Also, don't sparge too hot--I shoot for 170, but 168 would be even better.

I have a question about over sparging. I typically use a calculator to figure out mash and sparge volumes. http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php
I usually have 4 gallons in the mash and 5-5.5 gallons of sparge(depending on grain bill). Should I be doing this another way? For temperature, I always sparge at 168.

 

[rmyurick]

I'm not the ultimate expert on this--just a homebrewer, but here's the way I do it. I assume you are fly sparging--if you're batch sparging, it shouldn't be an issue.

After vorlauf, I let down the liquid level til it's maybe a half inch above the bed. Then add sparge water, try to keep the level an inch or two or more above the bed. I control the runoff rate with the outlet valve (approximately, using a measuring cup & timer, then eyeballing the stream) so that the whole sparge takes about 1 hour. When the kettle's nearing the expected level, or runoff is looking pretty weak, start tasting & testing the runoff. Usually, when I start to check it's about 1.020 & I usually don't have to stop before my sparge water is gone. Last batch I made I stopped at 1.015, since I had plenty of volume and gravity in the kettle already.

Since the last batch I made was very light in color, I acidifyed my sparge for the first time--Used brunwater spreadsheet, which called for 1.7 ml of lactic acid, which is maybe a quarter-teaspoon? I only went down to 7 on pH. (tap water is about 7.3)

If you are pretty sure tannins are the problem, you could do an extract batch as a control & see how that comes out.

I made a stout a couple batches ago & it's not great--I didn't pay that much attention to water & maybe got the mash too hot. I think it finished around 1.028. (OG around 1.068, I think) One of the few beers I made that I just don't really want more of, even if I want one. So I can relate.

 

[rmyurick]

I noticed that BYO has posted an article today on water & pH: http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3372-understanding-ph-advanced-brewing

 

[JLeuck64]

I have a question about over sparging. I typically use a calculator to figure out mash and sparge volumes. http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php
I usually have 4 gallons in the mash and 5-5.5 gallons of sparge(depending on grain bill). Should I be doing this another way? For temperature, I always sparge at 168.

I approach sparging from more of an efficiency viewpoint, I am trying to max out the sugar extraction from the grains. See my post, #20 from this thread about efficiency to see how I crunch the numbers to get a 50/50 split from 1st and 2nd runnings. If you are currently getting efficiency numbers in the high 70's then I would say you are using the correct volumes for mash and sparge already. But... since you admit that you are already using larger volumes to sparge with then I might suspect that the temperature of the grain bed might get too high... and contribute to the astringency mentioned by others. I typically mash in with more water than I sparge with to get to that magic 50/50 split.