Stepping Up...how much does it multiply each time.

[user 22118]

There are a couple of other threads about stepping up but I haven't gotten the answer that I am really looking for.

Making a 11 gallon batch at 1.070:

If I have one pack/vial of yeast and pitch into a 1L starter at 1.040, how much yeast will I have at the end?
If I chill it and then decant and pitch into a 1.5L starter, how much will I have then?

Making a 5 gallon batch at 1.180:

If I have one pack/vial of yeast, how many times will I have to step it up in order to get enough yeast and at what steps?

I have made starters in the past, but don't understand the numbers, just the process. Anyone can throw a vial of yeast into some DME and water and stir/shake it for a day and then pitch. I am interested in how much I am trying to pitch in order to get a healthy ferment and a healthy yeast on the other end.

Thanks guys.

 

[lamarguy]

This pitching rate calculator should answer all of your questions.

 

[user 22118]

It doesn't really tell you about the step up though. It works for the first starter, but not much for the stepping up afterwards. I am interested in one single vial and not using a 5 gallon starter the first time. I'm more looking for both one vial and multiple steps on a starter. In the past I have pitched using the yeast from a prior batch without any trouble, though I am just about to make a barleywine and don't want to have to invest in three vials just to make my beer and also don't want to have to make another beer prior. I have a 2L flask and a stir plate.

I just checked Mr Malty, it would take 3 vials with a stir plate and a 1.7L starter.

 

[lamarguy]

In the past I have pitched using the yeast from a prior batch without any trouble, though I am just about to make a barleywine and don't want to have to invest in three vials just to make my beer and also don't want to have to make another beer prior.

Well, you always make a smaller batch, say 2.5 gallons of barleywine and get away with a single vial and a 2 liter starter. Otherwise, brew a starter beer, make a huge standalone starter, or ask for a yeast donation from a friend or local brewery.

I have a 2L flask and a stir plate. I just checked Mr Malty, it would take 3 vials with a stir plate and a 1.7L starter.

If you adjust the slider bar, it says you can get away with a single vial of yeast in a 4 liter starter. Here is a description for the calculations.

 

[user 22118]

Well, you always make a smaller batch, say 2.5 gallons of barleywine and get away with a single vial and a 2 liter starter. Otherwise, brew a starter beer, make a huge standalone starter, or ask for a yeast donation from a friend or local brewery.

This is the answer to a different problem. 1 vial, 5 gallons, 1.180 barleywine. Those are the criteria and I am trying to step up the starter to acheive enough yeast. This is less about making the beer and more about stepping up the starter. What about starting from 10ml of slurry from the bottom of a bottle of beer and stepping it up? You don't just throw that into 2L of 1.040 wort and then pitch straight from that right? If not, then how do we step it up?

If you adjust the slider bar, it says you can get away with a single vial of yeast in a 4 liter starter. Here is a description for the calculations.

I understand what you are saying here, though the idea doesn't make sense still. Lets say that I am making a 1.100 or 25plato beer. The lowest number of vials is 2 and a 4.82L starter with two month old yeast. That still isn't one vial and two steps.

 

[lamarguy]

You appear to be over-complicating this. Do yourself a favor and use the pitching rate calculator.

Yes, you have to know a couple of things:

1. Approximate live cell count in the vial/slant/etc.
2. Target yeast cell count for volume and specific gravity.

#1 is estimated based on the age of the vial/slant, but you could always use a hemocytometer if you're unsure. #2 is widely known and published.

From there, you calculate the growth necessary to reach the target cell count. From the Mr Malty Yeast Explanation (that you clearly didn't read ):

I've read statements from both White Labs and Wyeast on starters and how much growth you'll get. On the White Labs web site (09/07/2005) it states, "If a starter is made from a fresh vial, one vial can be added directly to a 2 liter starter, which in 2 days will grow to approximately 240 billion cells."
Greg Doss, Microbiologist/Brewer, with Wyeast Laboratories stated on the AHA TechTalk (08/31/2005) that approximately the following was true:

Pitching a Wyeast Activator pack gives the following results within 12 to 18 hours:

* 1 liter starter = about 150 billion cells
* 2 liter starter = about 200 billion cells
* 1 liter starter, then pitched into 4 liter starter = 400 billion cells

Practical experience with both products seems to indicate that these statements are at least in the ballpark and that good results can be had as long as a starter is made. However, one would think that you could go direct to 4 liters and get pretty close to the same 400 billion without doing the first 1 liter step. If you want lots of yeast, go 2 liters on the first step, then 20 liters (about 5 gallons) and repitch the yeast from that. Why don't 1 liter starters produce more yeast, even with a stir plate? There just isn't enough food to build that much yeast, no matter how much O2 and nutrient you add to it.

 

[dfohio]

you can expect a 50% increase in yeast cells from a vial pitched into a liter starter. 100 billion cells are in a vial and a liter starter will increase that count to 150 billion.

I have experienced roughly 1.8 million cells/ ml when doing step ups from frozen vials. That seems to be the limit for me.

There seems to be a ceiling on the amount of yeast/ml. So there really isn't a point to pitching a liter starter then pitching a 1.5 liter starter. If you are using a vial just pitch a 2.5 liter starter.

Step ups are usually only important when starting with a drastically lower cell count then what is in a vial.

When stepping up my frozen vials, I will pitch 15ml of yeast slurry into 500ml of wort then that gets stepped to whatever is needed to achieve proper pitch rate. Like I said, I roughly achieve 1.8 million cells/ml. Here is a rough way to check that
http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-yeast-harvest.cfm

If you want a more accurate count, then start doing dilutions and plating.

 

[kanzimonson]

If you're doing some stepping up, use Mr Malty's calculator and Wyeast's together:

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

Mr Malty's will tell you how many cells you need, and then you can use Wyeast's to estimate the step up.