Startup Cost v. LPG?

[user 246304]

I'm currently set on a propane-fired rig. The drag is I'm old and my body is screwed, so lugging wort inside and down to the basement is not something I'll enjoy.

However, in our basement, we have our dryer. I could setup down there (20 gal), and roll the fermenter to its dedicated, therm controlled room.

My question is: do you guys have any kind of estimate of startup costs, v. a standard propane fired, 1-tier system (2 pumps, not auto/controlled)?

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

 

[BrunDog]

Don't even question going electric or not. I don't have a side by side (sorry - I know that's your request), but I will guess electric is a good bit more expensive. But so are the upsides including ease of use and repeatibility. I honestly wonder why anyone would do gas anymore, other than the costs.

 

[user 246304]

I'd love to, for many reasons (though I like fire), Brundog. Unfortunately it really does come down to startup costs. Budget is what it is.

Thanks much.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I'm pricing a conversion to electric for 3 30g Blichmann kettles. To retrofit them with boil coils and 2 electric top controllers is 1600. I can sell my old gear for about 500-550 .

There are many clever folks on here that have made their on control panels and just have elements welded with tri clamp parts and make them for far less the the blichmann stuff.

 

[LarMoeCur]

My question is: do you guys have any kind of estimate of startup costs, v. a standard propane fired, 1-tier system (2 pumps, not auto/controlled)?

This is a huge question and most likely will not get answered. To many variables and most of us did not track our build cost to that level. We budget for a price and prayed we came in below. Well my wife said the price and I just got in below.

I'm also not sure what your asking. Almost all electric breweries are auto/controlled. Unless your just asking for a eclectic boil kettle but that will still have a control of sorts. The other big issue is what from your old brewery would you be reusing? Kettles, hoses, pumps, ect..

There are a few web sites that have complete break downs of exact parts and pieces needed. You could spend a few hours drawing up a plan and researching those parts cost.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks, DCP. That's doable. I should check with Spike (I like their work and plan on using their vessels) and see what's up with them (I find them really helpful in general), and think on this more.

I appreciate it, you guys.

 

[dyqik]

You can control the costs pretty well with the type of control setup you go for. A manually controlled eBIAB/single heated kettle set up could be got going for the cost of an element, weldless element housing, a StillDragon kit, and GFCI over propane (and no burner or gas tank to buy). I figure something like $250-$300 for the electric specific things (depending on your GFCI situation), vs maybe $150 for propane specific things, and with effectively the same control set up - completely manual. I've been effectively brewing on a single manual control kettle for the past year and a half, although I already had my RIMS set up when brewing on propane.

By the way, with no scorching due to hotspots on the base of the kettle, there's less of a need for heavy kettles for electric brewing, so you can cut costs there.

Prices from brewhardware.com
$41 - 5500W ripple element
$26 - hot pod element enclosure for weldless install

From big box hardware store (guesses)
$20 - element cable
$20 - dryer cable
$80-$100 GFCI Spa Panel/breaker

From StillDragon
$41 - large StillDragon controller kit

plus misc cabling items and shipping

Add maybe $60 over the StillDragon kit to go with a basic Auber EZ-boil type temperature/power controller, I think?

 

[madscientist451]

If cost is really an issue, downsize your batches. You said you were old and your body is screwed, what the heck are you going to do with 20 gallons of beer?
I brew in my kitchen on my Kenmore stove. The stove cost $40 at an estate auction. I brew 5 gallon batches in an 8 gallon pot, but often brew 4 gallon or even 2.5 gallon batches so I have lots of variety. Everything is easy to handle, easy to clean and easy to put away. I don't have time for brewing very often, but I find myself with way more beer than I can drink myself. If you don't want to brew in the kitchen, I'd rig up an electric BIAB set up similar to what Colorado Brewing Systems offers.
But you don't need a fancy control panel, a simple controller for the boil element will work fine.
Or you could go to an auction, find a nice electric stove for cheap and just plug that into the dryer receptacle. Rig up an exhaust hood with some pipe going out side and you'll be ready to brew.

 

[user 246304]

This is a huge question and most likely will not get answered. To many variables and most of us did not track our build cost to that level. We budget for a price and prayed we came in below. Well my wife said the price and I just got in below.

I'm also not sure what your asking. Almost all electric breweries are auto/controlled. Unless your just asking for a eclectic boil kettle but that will still have a control of sorts. The other big issue is what from your old brewery would you be reusing? Kettles, hoses, pumps, ect..

There are a few web sites that have complete break downs of exact parts and pieces needed. You could spend a few hours drawing up a plan and researching those parts cost.

Missed this on first pass for some reason. Thanks very much, Lar. On the auto, I meant the current plans I have for the propane based stand. It will be pumped, but otherwise manually done by me.

Interestingly, I just got a special issue of BYO with the plans for Brutus Ten. Looking forward to reading through that.

I haven't gotten the stand built yet, just passed the plan I drew up off to a welder, for a quote. And I don't have vessels yet. I know nothing about electrical except back in the early days, I think, on Herms and so forth and some issues with local heating. I know it's all radically changed and so I have a lot of reading to do.

Thanks too on the reality check re: hard budgeting. I'm going to do some digging and reading and do the best I can to compare.

The only issue for us is that the basement is a pretty nasty place. Old wood, tons of mold, I'm sure, even exposed fiberglass (we rent). I gutted a small room there and made it a washable, sanitizable room - for my then cheese cave. So there is that, a concern with contamination cool side.

 

[user 246304]

You can control the costs pretty well with the type of control setup you go for. A manually controlled eBIAB/single heated kettle set up could be got going for the cost of an element, weldless element housing, a StillDragon kit, and GFCI over propane (and no burner or gas tank to buy). I figure something like $250-$300 for the electric specific things (depending on your GFCI situation), vs maybe $150 for propane specific things, and with effectively the same control set up - completely manual. I've been effectively brewing on a single manual control kettle for the past year and a half, although I already had my RIMS set up when brewing on propane.

By the way, with no scorching due to hotspots on the base of the kettle, there's less of a need for heavy kettles for electric brewing, so you can cut costs there.

Prices from brewhardware.com
$41 - 5500W ripple element
$26 - hot pod element enclosure for weldless install

From big box hardware store (guesses)
$20 - element cable
$20 - dryer cable
$80-$100 GFCI Spa Panel/breaker

From StillDragon
$41 - large StillDragon controller kit

plus misc cabling items and shipping

Add maybe $60 over the StillDragon kit to go with a basic Auber EZ-boil type temperature/power controller, I think?

Fantastic. Many thanks for pulling these numbers together, dygik. This is really helpful and I'll take it in.

 

[user 246304]

If cost is really an issue, downsize your batches. You said you were old and your body is screwed, what the heck are you going to do with 20 gallons of beer?
I brew in my kitchen on my Kenmore stove. The stove cost $40 at an estate auction. I brew 5 gallon batches in an 8 gallon pot, but often brew 4 gallon or even 2.5 gallon batches so I have lots of variety. Everything is easy to handle, easy to clean and easy to put away. I don't have time for brewing very often, but I find myself with way more beer than I can drink myself. If you don't want to brew in the kitchen, I'd rig up an electric BIAB set up similar to what Colorado Brewing Systems offers.
But you don't need a fancy control panel, a simple controller for the boil element will work fine.
Or you could go to an auction, find a nice electric stove for cheap and just plug that into the dryer receptacle. Rig up an exhaust hood with some pipe going out side and you'll be ready to brew.

Thanks Mad. Yeah, well, I'm not really that old but my body rebelled on me (central nervous system condition, hits everything. That, plus a back that went to hell years ago from my living and training in a Japanese martial and zen temple, in my 30's. Brutal.). So I don't have any business doing any of this, and 20 gallons, you're right. I guess I'm nuts. I miss being involved in the brewing world professionally and as my last system was keggle based well....this is my next step up. It makes no sense, I know.

I have a 7 gallon stockpot and have planned to get going with some BIAB. Our stove can get me the boil, though not a crazy one. About right, now that I think of it, for brewing - a good, spirited, rolling boil. Is this what you're talking about, basically?

Edit: Forgot to mention. As a chef, brewer, whatever - I absolutely hate doing lower volumes, when more doesn't take any more effort. Just my nature. I had to be talked out of it here (was that you?) of a 30 gallon rig!

 

[mtbr_brewer]

Hopefully this is helpful for you, I priced out all my pieces because I moved hobbies and wanted to ensure I wasn't dumping a bunch more into this venture. Below is my build specs (for the most part), I used keggles to stay on budget, but that's a rough idea on the other components. Additionally, I got a good deal of my stainless components on ProFlow Dynamics Black Friday sale which was 40% off, and got a good deal of things used (hosehead, herms coil, heating elements, etc.). It also includes the cost to renovate the dedicated brew space I created. Included a picture of my setup as well!

Hot Liquor Tank:
Keggle $40.00
Compression Bulkhead x2 $28.00
Camlock F x 3 $8.25
Camlock A $2.61
Ball Valve $5.00
Ball Valve w/ Bulkhead $12.39
Tee and Nipple $5.25
Sight Glass $14.16
90* Elbow $2.31
6" Pipe $2.80
Silicone Gasket $0.50
Stainless Tubing (HERMS coil) $77.55

Total $198.82


Mash Tun
Keggle $40.00
False Bottom $21.40
1/2 NPT compression $9.80
Dip Tube $4.99
90* high flow $4.60
Ball Valve $12.39
Tee and Nipple $5.25
Male Camlock x 2 $5.50
Silicone Gasket $0.50

Total $104.43

Brew Kettle
Keggle $50.00
Ball Valve $12.39
Male Camlock x 2 $5.50
Sight Glass $14.16
Hop Stopper $35.00
90* elbow $2.31
6" Pipe $2.80
Silicone Gasket $0.50
1/2" Compression to female $9.80

Total $132.46

Other
Pumps $203.00
Ball Valves $14.00
Camlocks A $11.96
Camploc 3/4 $13.30
Street 90 $4.60
Heating Elements $115.00
Hosing $38.50
Camlocks Female $52.50
Punches $65

Total: $517.86

Control Panel
HoseHead $181
Computer Monitor $15
Temp Compression Fittings $39.95


Total $235.95

Brewing Room
Vent Hood $125.00
Hood Hardware $10.64
Duct Work $25.00
Lighting $36.48
Electrical Work $8.00
Floor $100
Paint $30
Drywall $20
Mini Fridge $40

Total $395.12

Grand Total $1,584.64

 

[user 246304]

Thanks, mtbr brewer! Very helpful as well and more concrete things to toss into the pot. And my face nearly cracked when I looked at your photo. An awesome room, congratulations.

 

[madscientist451]

Wow, nice setup mtbr brewer, and even nicer considering what your budget was.
All I know is a 20 gallon pot is heavier and probably won't fit in a regular sink if you want to clean it. My kegerator holds 4, 5 gallon kegs, plus I can take a couple over to my G/F's house, there's no way I want 4 kegs of the same thing. Then I would have to wait until I have 4 empty kegs and room for 4 kegs in the fridge before I brew again. I've recently splurged and bought NEW 2.5 gallon kegs for small batches so I can have even more variety, the small kegs are great and easily fit in a standard fridge.
What is the pot geometry of your 7 gallon pot? A taller, smaller diameter pot might work better on your stove?

 

[processhead]

Not addressing your specific question here, but will suggest an alternative solution that may or may not work for you.

A buddy of mine took up brewing in his garage a couple years ago with an LP burner setup. Like you, he was hauling containers of hot wort down basement steps and scaring the hell out of all of us.
Like you, he is also old and decrepit..
We installed a PVC pipe sleeve through the sill of his garage wall and into the basement brew area where his fermenter, sink and refrigerators are located. After he is done with all the hot work in the garage, he gravity feeds the boil kettle contents through a hose run through the sill sleeve and right into his CFC in the basement and then into a waiting fermenter.
He is very happy with the arrangement, and we no longer fear for his life on brew day.
The PVC pipe sleeve gets capped off when not in use to keep out drafts and vermin.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I've been brewing about a year, and have built out a three vessel cooler system with a pump off of Craiglist. In retrospect, I wish I had gone with a single vessel recirculating e-BIAB system. I still don't have the super-fine temperature control that a RIMS/HERMS system would have, and I expect that I have spent more than I would have. There is more to clean and deal with in a three vessel system, and storage is a pain. And every time I spend $15 on a propane exchange, I kick myself.

If I could go back and do it all again, I would go electric from the start. Even if the BIAB efficiency is a little less, the cost of some additional grain for every batch is going to be offset by the convenience and lower cost of electricity.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks for the additional thoughts, guys. I do believe I'll be starting with my 7 gallon and whatever brewlength that affords, in a BIAB setup. But I have to be honest, I'm very attached to a traditional 3 vessel brewery. While I've been away a long time, I brewed a long time on my old, 2 tier system and loved it. In terms of lugging 20 gallons - just to clarify, I meant the cold sanke, ready for oxygenation, not hot wort! Yeah, that would just be asking for an unpleasant night, right?! And I do have a 16 year old son who dragged the deer I shot this last season, the 2+ miles back to our car. (It's still feeding us. I honor that deer). I think I made it about 100 yards. So, er, there's that. By the time he leaves home, hopefully, whether it's inside or outside, I'll have a rolling solution.

Very compelling thoughts on an electric setup, guys. I appreciate you contributing here.

 

[user 125772]

Who wouldn't want a rig like mtbr_brewer showed us, but it's hard to ignore the simplicity and affordability of an e-biab rig made from a keggle, and I'd be surprised if you couldn't make a 10 gal batch with one.

That CraftBeerPi controller is pretty simple, can be put together for pretty small money too

 

[user 246304]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to really thank you for all your thoughts. I've sat on this, and I've done some touring of my downstairs area. Here's where I am.

I don't want to put off brewing until I build my "dream" system. I am not used to BIAB at all and I need to open my mind. It will be rewarding to start on this method, with my existing 7 gallon stockpot. My indoor stove works fine for this need.

I enjoy too thoroughly the traditional 3-vessel setup to forego it, having invested so much into it. So I will be pursuing my original 3-vessel conception. I was a good brewer with my former system and loved the entire process, so I am looking forward to beginning anew, with some new things learned, of course.

My basement does not suit. It is just too "rustic" with exposed beams and fibreglass, not to mention the fact such things make it unccleanable or unsanitazable, for me to be comfortable to brew inside, in this space.

This leaves me outside. I'm intrigued by both the Brutus-styled, gas-fired but Honeywell solenoid-controlled system, as well as a full electric-system. I didn't mention that I already had my banjo burners sitting in my gathering collection. Doesn't mean I can't find a use for them, but it does mean, along with the coming Chuggers, I've begun some first steps towards the gas system. Doesn't matter. This is something I need to sit with, because you e-brewers really do intrigue me with what you do. If I go gas, which is where I seem to be heading, the nice thing is nothing is set in stone - I can automate as time and money allow.

I mentioned I'm a fan of flame. A friend at the time, a fellow ex-pat from Goose Island, Jim Cibak; he worked for 3 Floyds at a time when they were still - perhaps still are - direct firing. I like the notion of local caramelization though I know the same can be, probably is, obtained with e-heating elements. It's just an unknown area to me. I know fire. Different, but not necessarily better, of course.

If I had my druthers, I'd have a steam jacket.

Finally, though I am planning on a 20 gallon system, I want to make clear that is only to give me room. I don't plan on brewing in, like, 18 gallon brewlengths, at least not with any regularity. Much more likely is in the 12-14 gallon range. Again, a strapping son goes a long way.

Now, let me admit the most insane notion: Some may have seen, most or all, probably not, but I'm a fan of Black Sheep Brewery, along with Samuel Smith and other Yorkshire breweries I've been lucky to try. Simply: I want to open ferment. And I want to try building a Yorkshire Square method. And without blushing, though I know it should, I want to do this all outside, where summer temps can hit close to 100F and winter can easily go below 0. So a means to control temps rigorously, tightly, in this inhospitable environment.

Move cold wort to an open fermenter, then roll the fermenter on a cart of some kind, to a waiting chamber that will work. Top part contains the vessel, outflow through a T/C to a pump, a fishtail fan spreader up top that fires the early wort back on to the krausen. Just as it's done up in the north of England. And perhaps (I've queried them), places like Pratt Street Alehouse, Baltimore?

This is what's spinning, this is what I'm chewing on.

Thank you all again.

 

[dyqik]

I think you are evaluating the risk of an unfinished basement incorrectly. I brew in my unfinished basement. It's a lot more sanitary than when I brewed in my garage with an open door, and I find a lot less crap floating in the boil kettle. That's because there's no wind in the basement disturbing dust etc.

 

[user 246304]

Not addressing your specific question here, but will suggest an alternative solution that may or may not work for you.

A buddy of mine took up brewing in his garage a couple years ago with an LP burner setup. Like you, he was hauling containers of hot wort down basement steps and scaring the hell out of all of us.
Like you, he is also old and decrepit..
We installed a PVC pipe sleeve through the sill of his garage wall and into the basement brew area where his fermenter, sink and refrigerators are located. After he is done with all the hot work in the garage, he gravity feeds the boil kettle contents through a hose run through the sill sleeve and right into his CFC in the basement and then into a waiting fermenter.
He is very happy with the arrangement, and we no longer fear for his life on brew day.
The PVC pipe sleeve gets capped off when not in use to keep out drafts and vermin.

It's funny, processhead, in re-reading your post I remember now I put a pvc pipe open to the sidewalk side, to allow for air inlet - for cheesemaking. It's probably 15 feet from my intended brewing area, but the frame will be on wheels, and all can be pumped. Cool idea!

 

[user 246304]

I think you are evaluating the risk of an unfinished basement incorrectly. I brew in my unfinished basement. It's a lot more sanitary than when I brewed in my garage with an open door, and I find a lot less crap floating in the boil kettle. That's because there's no wind in the basement disturbing dust etc.

Thanks dygik, it's a good point to consider. I think for me, it's the fibreglass everywhere, more than anything else, that gets to me. That, and I know there's some unwanted nasties in the flora mix - some of my cheeses of considerable investment (20 lb wheels, Abondance alpine cheese) went south, even with what I consider to be an excellent cellar regimen (2x daily "morge" cultured brine washing, temp and humidity controlled cave). The "cave" was built in one corner of the basement and of course it would be ludicrous to hope to wipe out ambient flora - I'm good with outcompeting them. I lost.

So, that's probably driven my preference for enclosed, cleanable surfaced rooms since. Basement will certainly cut down on costs, obviously.

Lots to think on. As it should be. Thanks again.