Starting to focus on water

[ircbrewing]

Hi all -

This a great subject and one that I am getting to start focusing on. I have been brewing for about a year and half now and for the most part have thought nothing of water as I was focusing on recipe building and processes. I do BIAB. I am currently running about 55-65% efficiency and have calibrated my beersmith software for that to ensure I still get close to my numbers and compensating for by additional grains. However, I suspect the lower efficiency is related to my water Ph and the fact that I do not adjust it currently. I use my tap water in metro Atlanta in Gwinnett county. I believe the Ph of the tap water is 7.1 or so, so way beyond the desired 5.2-5.5 range.

I do not have a water report because honestly, other than lower efficiency, I have not noticed anything weird in my beer and because our water is supplied by lake lanier which is fed by mountain rivers/streams from the Appalachian mountains, I suspect it's fairly mineral neutral water. I get just as good of beer using my tap water as I did when I bought distilled water for each brew day. So....given that I am not totally focused on mineral adjustment in my beer as I think for the most part there isn't an issue that I can taste.

However, I know all water from municipals has some chlorine in it and I know there are two ways to reduce mash Ph, either through acid malt or by adding acid chemically. So my thought is, I definitely want to ensure any chlorine (while not totally detectable by my pallet in my tap water) is removed and that I have proper mash Ph. And I want to keep this simple as pie.

Can I simply order a Ph adjusment kit and digital ph meter from amazon like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BNKWZY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

and throw in 1/3 of a campden tablet just to remove any trace chlorine and best set to brew?

Thanks!

 

[jmark]

First off, we are blessed in the Atlanta area to generally have minimally mineralized water which certainly provides a nice slate to work from. If you want to go down this road, I would certainly look at a decent pH meter - there are several recommendations on this forum from well respected folks in the industry, so I'd suggest going with one of those... here's a thread that may inform:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=515886

I would stay away from the cheap (under $50) meters as they tend to be disposable and inaccurate. I've had two before I shelled out on something more robust... YMMV, but looking back I'd wish I had paid once!

 

[ircbrewing]

Thanks, jmark! Nice to see you live in the ATL metro! I'll definitely spend the money on a higher end Ph meter.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

All malts are acidic. Even the very highest pH malts are only about pH 5.8 when doughed into DI water, so when you add malts to your water, unless your water is loaded with problematic alkalinity (which it assuredly has the potential for, even if it is pH 7.0) your mash is going to wind up in the pH 5's range somewhere. Your mash could only go below pH 5 if the grist bill is loaded dark crystal/caramel and/or dark roasted malts, and your water has little to no alkalinity.

 

[ircbrewing]

All malts are acidic. Even the very highest pH malts are only about pH 5.8 when doughed into DI water, so when you add malts to your water, unless your water is loaded with problematic alkalinity (which it assuredly has the potential to be, even if it is pH 7.0) your mash is going to wind up in the pH 5's range somewhere. It could only go below 5 if the grist bill is heavily dominated by dark crystal/caramel or dark roasted malts.

Awesome...thanks for that tidbit. I did not consider that at all.

So here's the next question, do I do all Ph adjustment after dough in? If you treat the water beforehand then I would come way under. For example, if my strike water is 7 Ph and I go ahead and add phosphoric acid to bring it down to 5.2 and then dough in, my Ph will decrease below my target and I'll have to add base to bring it back up.

So, it seems to me that I leave the strike water untreated, then dough in, it goes from 7 ph to say 6 Ph, then all I need to do is add a few drops of acid to take it down to 5.2 Ph. Sounds about right?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You seriously need to get a water test to know your waters alkalinity (which is its measure of CaCO3, and not its pH). Malts mashed into good RO or distilled water will mainly fall into the 5's pH range. If your water is low in alkalinity (which you can't know without testing) the same is likely going to be the case for most grist bills when doughed into your water. But if your alkalinity is high enough, you may easily be mashing at above pH 5.8, particularly if your grist bill does not contain darker malts.

 

[stella_tigre]

I'm also just starting to look at water. My understanding is, make a beer, wait about 15 minutes into the mash, stir well, take a sample and let it cool and check the pH. If you have already run the numbers in, say, B'runwater, you can see if it's giving you accurate estimates, and use the tool to tell you how to adjust next time. Retest the new mash to check veracity, etc etc.

I would love to hear from experienced folks if that is a good way to go. Since different malt bills will change pH, it will be a different answer for each recipe.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In general, the lighter the malts color, the higher its mash pH contribution (into the upper 5's), and the darker the malt, the lower its mash pH contribution (down into the mid to a bit lower 4's).

 

[ajdelange]

Firstly, we cannot say that all malts are acidic except in the most trivial sense which is what the layman is taught in highschool. that is that anything with a pH of < 7 is acidic which it is, relative to the neutral point of water. But light kilned malts with their pH's in the 5.6 - 6.2 range are actually basic WRT mash pH and it is WRT to mash pH that we are concerned.

Dark kilned malts have DI mash pH's which are lower than 5.6 - often appreciably lower than target mash pH (typically 5.4 - 5.6) and are thus acidic WRT mash pH. Thus we must add acid to grists which are primarily light malts and less so to grists that contain a large proportion if dark malts depending on the water. Most waters have pH in the 6 - 9 region and are, thus, basic WRT mash pH. A highly alkaline water will require more acid or more dark malt or both than one with low alkalinity. Note that the pH of the water is generally not that important. Its alkalinity is the major driver.

Hitting mash pH is a matter of adding acid (usually) or base (sometimes) to get the acidity of the dark malts balances by the alkalinity of the light malts and water at the desired mash pH.

Do avoid the cheapie pH meters

Do drop the few bucks necessary to obtain a water analysis by Ward Labs.

 

[RedlegEd]

Awesome...thanks for that tidbit. I did not consider that at all.

So here's the next question, do I do all Ph adjustment after dough in? If you treat the water beforehand then I would come way under. For example, if my strike water is 7 Ph and I go ahead and add phosphoric acid to bring it down to 5.2 and then dough in, my Ph will decrease below my target and I'll have to add base to bring it back up.

So, it seems to me that I leave the strike water untreated, then dough in, it goes from 7 ph to say 6 Ph, then all I need to do is add a few drops of acid to take it down to 5.2 Ph. Sounds about right?

Hi. It's really good to see you are now focusing on managing your water and working toward making even better beer. Before asking a lot of [very good] questions, may I recommend you read the Brewing Water Chemistry sticky here? It will answer many of your questions, and some you don't even know to ask. I would also recommend getting a water chemistry software, like Bru'n Water
or EZ Water Calculator. They have free versions and will help you become more precise in managing your water. BTW, if you're doing BIAB and your efficiencies are low, there's a good chance that your grind might not be fine enough. I'd also look into that. Best regards! Ed


ETA: +1 on the Ward Labs report. Best $42 you'll spend.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm also just starting to look at water. My understanding is, make a beer, wait about 15 minutes into the mash, stir well, take a sample and let it cool and check the pH. If you have already run the numbers in, say, B'runwater, you can see if it's giving you accurate estimates, and use the tool to tell you how to adjust next time. Retest the new mash to check veracity, etc etc.
.

This is the basic gist of it.

 

[stella_tigre]

Do drop the few bucks necessary to obtain a water analysis by Ward Labs.

Our next step....we have RO and currently use a mix of mostly that, with a small amount each of softened water and filtered well water. Works well with malty brews, but we do need to know what we have instead of shooting in the dark!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It is not trivial, nor is it mere high school level chemistry that has established that the pH scale runs from 0 to 14 with 7 presiding in the neutral ground of the middle. Brewers can (and should) consider malts with DI mash pH's above pH 5.4 as being basic and malts with DI mash pH's below that benchmark being acidic, but it is not likely that the novice brewer will be initially thinking of it in that manner.

 

[TheHopfather]

Our next step....we have RO and currently use a mix of mostly that, with a small amount each of softened water and filtered well water. Works well with malty brews, but we do need to know what we have instead of shooting in the dark!

How is the softened water softened? If you are using a typical water softener machine (the ones with the big white salt pellets), be aware that you are adding a lot of salt to that water. If you've already got RO I'd just use 100% of that and build it up to whatever profile you are shooting for with gypsum and calcium chloride additions.

 

[ajdelange]

You aren't adding salt (unless your final backwash is not working as it should) but you are replacing each calcium ion and each magnesium ion with a sodium ion. If you had 100 ppm calcium hardness i.e. 2 mEq/L also equal to 40 mg/L calcium as the ion in the original water that calcium hardness will be down to 1 or 2 ppm at the output and the water will contain 2 mEq/L (46 mg/L) sodium.

 

[ajdelange]

It is not trivial, nor is it mere high school level chemistry that has established that the pH scale runs from 0 to 14 with 7 presiding in the neutral ground of the middle.

Pure water dissociates to the extent of 10^-7 mol per mole of water @ 25 °C resulting in 10^-7 mol of H+ and 10^-7 mol (OH). It's natural that the center of the pH scale (pH = -log[H+]) should be at this point when water is the solvent as it is characteristic of the solvent. [H+] was, at the time of the definition, the concentration of H+ (it's now the activity). For another solvent a different value of pH would express the neutral point.

The pH scale runs beyond 0 and 14 though a sort of the practical end to the low range is -1.7 as a pH lower than that implies a concentration of hydrogen ions per liter greater than the number of water molecules in a liter. Under the activity definition, though, it is quite possible to have a pH < -1.76.