Starting a malolactic - with or without adding malocid?

[Uncomfortabrew]

Hi, i want my cider to go through malolactic fermentation(?)
But i was wondering if this is something that will happen by itself (if so, how?!) or do i have to add some kind of malolactic bacteria - like malocid =
https://www.danishoutdoor.dk/brygudstyr/ravarer/vingar-cidergar-etc/malocid
How long does the malolactic fermentation take?

Thank you for your time

 

[RPh_Guy]

I use unpasteurized juice and it undergoes MLF by itself because the lactic acid bacteria are already present in the must.

If you use pasteurized juice, you'd need to add the bacteria.

MLF may take several weeks to a few months. The rate is affected by pH, sulfite level, and temperature. You can also add special nutrients for MLF bacteria.

 

[gregbathurst]

I have used MLF culture, but the quantities added were much smaller than the one in that link. It is stored in the freezer and just a tiny amount used. MLF is easy in cider because there is a lot of malic acid, though temperature should be 18c or higher and pH 3.2 or higher. It takes about 2 weeks but the cider will taste a bit odd for another month, so you need to leave it at least 2 months before drinking.

 

[AzOr]

I have done mlf twice, both times naturally. After 3 months in secondary in 60f garage I moved into house and a few weeks later noticed the ring of bubbles. Interestingly enough, it didn’t get cloudy. It remained homebrew clear.
Also, it doesn’t strip all of the acidic bite. It just makes the cider taste mature and smoother. Hard to describe but both were very tasty.
This year I may force it. I’ll have to look into nutrients. I’m also gonna bite the bullet and get a ph meter.
I’ll force it a few months post fermentation.

 

[gregbathurst]

If you drink your cider dry/unsweetened, I think MLF really improves it. Even a lot of sweet ciders go through MLF. It gets a bad name because people sample their ciders too soon after pitching - you have to wait.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Okay, thinking adding the culture to make sure i dont get unwanted flavors which i have read can happen when cider malolactic ferment naturally - since this is my first cider and i want to play it as safe as possible this time.

Heard something about if you bottle it while it is still in MLF you will get some off flavor which is not desirable (or if MLF starts on its own in the bottle)

What signs do you have to see that MLF has started?
And how long after MLF has started should i wait before bottling and is the a way to see the MLF is complete?

Thanks for the answers

 

[ten80]

MLF usually happens after yeast is done fermenting. Malolactic bateria will use the fine lees (yeast) for nutrients as they convert malic acid to lactic acid. So often a cider will go clear once the yeast is done and has flocculated, then the cider will sit for a while, and then get hazy again and may bubble a little as MLF bacteria go to work. MLF in traditional cideries in France and England generally happens in the spring to early summer when barrels/tanks of cider warm up.

You'll know that MLF is done when the cider goes clear again and stops bubbling. I'd give it 2-3 months after pitching a commercial culture to be certain. I guess you could monitor the progress of the MLF by taking titratable acid readings, but that's more effort than most of us want to put in.

Keep in mind that you MUST add sulfites if you are adding potassium sorbate in the presence of MLF bacteria, or the bacteria will produce geraniol (tastes like geraniums) from the potassium sorbate. This is true for wild ciders as well.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Great answer, thanks!
Why would i want to add potassium sorbate in the first place?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you wanted to ruin a perfectly good dry cider by stabilizing and sweetening

 

[ten80]

If you wanted to ruin a perfectly good dry cider by stabilizing and sweetening

Unfortunately, not all of my friends' palates are qualified to enjoy a crisp, dry, French-style cider.

 

[wasully]

Aren't most French style ciders not dry? The whole point of keeving is not to be dry.

 

[AzOr]

Here's a good read on mlf
https://www.brewingschool.org/wp-content/uploads/Maturation-of-cider.pdf

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Thanks for the great answers
So i added the MLF bacteria about 6 days ago
And MLF has not started and now i got a like a membrane of some white-ish, almost looks like chalk at the top of brew - but no mold (i am aware of that i do have way too much headspace, but this was my only option)
And i also get some suckback in the lock (even though i keep it at a pretty staple temperature for MLF to start) so there is no Co2 action going on

Should i bottle them right away and give up on the MLF? I am thinking that it won't start because i used sodium at the start before adding cider yeast? And do anybody have an idea of wtf is going on?

Pictures 1-2
Carboy number 1 (started getting the ''membrane'' yesterday)

Pictures 3-5
Carboy number (been having the ''chalky membrane'' for like 4 days)

Picture 6
Suckback in duplex lock

 

[RPh_Guy]

now i got a like a membrane of some white-ish, almost looks like chalk at the top of brew

That's called a pellicle.
Generally, a pellicle indicates the presence of wild yeast and/or bacteria.
It could be from the batteries you added.

Is this cider from pasteurized juice?

I am thinking that it won't start because i used sodium at the start before adding cider yeast?

Sodium what?

I recommend s-shaped airlocks instead of 3-piece.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

I am pretty sure it is sodium metabisulfite
I can check in a few days.
The cider is from my apples freshly pressed
What would you recommend i do, let it sit in the carboy or bottle it asap?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It could be from the batteries you added.

Wow, thanks autocorrect. I meant bacteria.

Since your cider is from unpasteurized juice, you have leftovers microbes that were on your apples. A pellicle is normal.

I am pretty sure it is sodium metabisulfite

That won't matter at this point.
FYI it's not the "sodium" part that matters. Without getting too far into the science, the metabisulfite becomes "sulfite" which is anti-microbial. However it was removed by fermentation or even before then.

What would you recommend i do, let it sit in the carboy or bottle it asap?

You definitely need a smaller container. Bottling (with carbonation) is a fine option in my opinion.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Wow, thanks autocorrect. I meant bacteria.

Haha i thought batteries was some kind og brewing slang for bacteria, but i got the point.

Thanks a lot, does not seem like the malolactic fermentation is going to start, any idea why this is or maybe i am just to impatient, but been about 13 days now and been keeping the temperature stable.

But if there is no problem in bottling with pellicle i will do that in a week and add honey for bottle carbonation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How do you know MLF hasn't started?

I've had cider undergo MLF after bottling. It does create a more carbonation, but not enough to cause bottle bombs.

The pellicle/ wild microbes are ok for bottling. You need to reduce oxygen exposure so that they don't create off flavors.