Starter with dry yeast ?

[eimar]

I know, it looks like a waste of time here.
I purchased a " stirstarter" for my latest batch ( inoculated with a 1.5 litre wyeast starter ) and was so impressed by the short lag time that I thought I could apply the same technique with dry yeast.
I know that theoretically, 1 or 2 packaging of dry yeast should be enough to inoculate 20 litres of wort so my question is :
Is it better to inoculate 20 litres ( +- 5 gallons ) with 2 packaging ( 20 grams ) of dry yeast, or make a 2 litres ( .5 gallon ) stirred starter with , for example, 2 or 3 grams dry yeast ?

Jacques

 

[JonK331]

Check out the Fermentis website:

"Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 27C ± 3C. Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel."

I do this "yeast cream" technique in a 500ml erlenmyer flask with two packets of yeast and filtered tap water. Fermentations often start in as little as 5 hours.

 

[Walker]

I just dump dry yeast right into my fermenters. I don't hydrate them or anything. And I only use 1 packet.

 

[Revvy]

Never had an issue with pitching dry yeast directly in the fermenter, or rehydrating. THe reason to make starters is to reproduce enough viable cells to do the job, hence the lag time we often have with not making starters for liquid yeast. With dry, there's already a high enough yeast population to need doing it.

 

[eimar]

Thank you JonK331, Walker, and Revvy for taking some of your valuable time to reply.
I've been brewing for about 15 years and as you mentioned dry yeast is quite foolproof and has a short lag time. Sometime I used the "yeast cream " technique ( as suggested by most dry yeast manufacturers ), sometime I didn't.
My idea to stirplate a dry yeast starter is to try to even reduce the lagtime by pitching dry yeast that's already at its peak activity.
The other reason is to proof that yeast before pitching. To be honest I never had some problem with dry yeast ( even if I remember seeing one case , on this forum, of recalled Lallemand batch ).
I have my starters autoclaved in advance ( using 2 litres fruitjuice glass jars ) so it shouldn't take too much time to do that experiment.


Jacques

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Have a read through this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/starter-no-starter-149547/

 

[boo boo]

Unless you are using a starter to proof your yeast and intend on pitching the starter within 30 minutes of making it, then I think you are doing more harm to the yeast than if you would do by just pitching it dry.
Making a starter uses up the built in sterols the yeast uses as start up food, and with the huge amount of cells contained in a pack, it would use it up in minutes. Cell viability would then begin to suffer by mutating yeast cells.

Proof your yeast, rehydrate, or pitch dry, but you shouldn't do a starter from the point of trying to build up the population. It isn't nesessary, and really will do more harm than good.

 

[eimar]

Thank you Yuri_Rage and boo boo to take some of your valuable time to reply and supply additional ( and very interesting ) information.
The starter-non starter thread supply even more information.

OK, so now I'm firmly convinced that not only making a stirplate yeast starter with dry yeast is a waste of time but it is even detrimental to yeast viability.I downloaded the Notthingam yeast data sheet from Lallemand website and found 2 very important steps:
1) As suggested by most of you, the dry yeast must be rehidrated:
Sprinkle the yeast on the surface of 10 times its weight of clean, sterilized (boiled) water at 30–35°C.
Do not use wort, or distilled or reverse osmosis water, as loss in viability will result. DO NOT STIR.
Leave undisturbed for 15 minutes, then stir to suspend yeast completely, and leave it for 5 more
minutes at 30–35°C. Then adjust temperature to that of the wort and inoculate without delay.

2) The next step even answers my question about proofing the yeast:
:
Attemperate in steps at 5-minute intervals of 10°C to the temperature of the wort by mixing aliquots of
wort. Do not allow attemperation to be carried out by natural heat loss. This will take too long and
could result in loss of viability or vitality.

Jacques

 

[yeoldebrewer]

I'm of the opinion that dry yeast has been taken seriously for so short a time that the brewing community may not yet know how to maximize its potential. That's just my take.

Regurgitating what I have read:

Re-hydrating and feeding dry yeast are entirely different processes. Dry yeast cells undergo a process of taking in fluid through their "skins" and are not active in the usual sense during this time. This makes them vulnerable to whatever is in solution. Only after they have re-hydrated are they ready to take in nutrients and proceed with reproduction and attenuation.

 

[kanzimonson]

Don't forget that it would cost you more in ingredients to take 1 packet of dry yeast and "build up to 2 packets" with a starter than just buying 2 packs.

Yeast manufacturers work hard to make sure that dry yeast have everything they need to rapidly begin working on your beer. As boo boo mentioned, by making a starter with them, you're using up all their good stuff on the starter, rather than in the wort/beer where it should be.

 

[JonK331]

Don't forget that it would cost you more in ingredients to take 1 packet of dry yeast and "build up to 2 packets" with a starter than just buying 2 packs.

I second that. For the record, I just made a relatively big stout (OG: 1.064) on Sunday, rehydrated two packets of Safale-04 in a 1000ml erlenmeyer with roughly two cups sterile water, and pitched. The ferment started within 6 hours and then went absolutely crazy (as usual). Seriously, this stuff makes my fermenter look like it's full of starving piranhas. It was bubbling so hard last night in my blow off bucket that the noise was downright annoying. Bottom line: just pitch two rehydrated packets and don't bother with starters. Spend the time you used to spend making a starter with a nice cold pint and a few minutes with your favorite brew book. Dry yeast is yet another wonderful product which further evolves our wonderful hobby. Afterall, you could still boil your equipment to sanitize but why the heck would you when there are wonderful new products like iodophur and star san. Same thing with dry yeast and starters