Starter for a Pilsner (lager) Question

[Brulosopher]

So here's what happens from this point... your thoughts are much appreciated.

The beer is fermenting, slowly but surely. I leave town for a week next Sunday, so I am going to leave the beer at 50F until I return from the east coast. By the time I return, it will have been in primary for just over 2 weeks. As soon as I get home, I plan on raising the temp to 62F for a d-rest, then after 2 days or so, crash the beer to about 36F, keg, carb, and lager for a few weeks... while sampling, of course.

Decent plan?

 

[osagedr]

I'd d-rest it before you head out. You want to do it during active fermentation. Better to do it too early than too late.

 

[Darwin18]

I'd d-rest it before you head out. You want to do it during active fermentation. Better to do it too early than too late.

I don't necessarily think that this is the best advice. If you pitched the proper amount of yeast at fermentation temperature, and held your temperatures within the correct range, you don't necessarily need to do a D-rest. The two lagers I made last year (Bock and Vienna) both scored well in separate BJCP competitions and I didn't d-rest either of them. You're more likely to incur off-flavors by letting it ferment at warmer temperatures especially during active fermentation. The point of a D-rest is to help eliminate potential off-flavors; if you're fermenting it correctly (right # of yeast and right temperatures) then you don't need a D-Rest. Taste it to be sure though.

 

[Brulosopher]

I don't necessarily think that this is the best advice. If you pitched the proper amount of yeast at fermentation temperature, and held your temperatures within the correct range, you don't necessarily need to do a D-rest. The two lagers I made last year (Bock and Vienna) both scored well in separate BJCP competitions and I didn't d-rest either of them. You're more likely to incur off-flavors by letting it ferment at warmer temperatures especially during active fermentation. The point of a D-rest is to help eliminate potential off-flavors; if you're fermenting it correctly (right # of yeast and right temperatures) then you don't need a D-Rest. Taste it to be sure though.

Hmm... If you read this entire thread, you'd see there's some speculation as to whether I pitched enough or not. I've heard a d-rest isn't really necessary, just a safety precaution, of you will. Now I'm thinking I'll raise the temp next Friday/Saturday, then cold crash before leaving on Sunday.

 

[Darwin18]

Hmm... If you read this entire thread, you'd see there's some speculation as to whether I pitched enough or not. I've heard a d-rest isn't really necessary, just a safety precaution, of you will. Now I'm thinking I'll raise the temp next Friday/Saturday, then cold crash before leaving on Sunday.

That's why I said IF you pitched enough yeast and IF you held it in the correct temperature ranges.

 

[Brulosopher]

That's why I said IF you pitched enough yeast and IF you held it in the correct temperature ranges.

I think I did pitch enough yeast, and it's right at 50F Cheers!

 

[SpeedYellow]

There's more to a good fermentation than just starting to bubble quickly. I would argue that how a fermentation ends is just as important, and affected by the pitching rate. But if you're happy with the beers you get at your pitching rates, then cheers!

Then what exactly are the proper measures of a good lager fermentation and "healthy" yeast? Because I bet you could match them, or come close, even by "underpitching" by half.

 

[SpeedYellow]

[deleted double-post]

 

[SpeedYellow]

Hmm... If you read this entire thread, you'd see there's some speculation as to whether I pitched enough or not. I've heard a d-rest isn't really necessary, just a safety precaution, of you will. Now I'm thinking I'll raise the temp next Friday/Saturday, then cold crash before leaving on Sunday.

I assume you know there's a proper point to d-rest... so why don't you just take a hydrometer reading, and do it if fermentation has reached that point? It beats guessing.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But I'd prefer no d-rest versus doing it way too early. I haven't noticed a difference when I do a d-rest.

 

[SpaceJunk]

There's more to a good fermentation than just starting to bubble quickly. I would argue that how a fermentation ends is just as important, and affected by the pitching rate. But if you're happy with the beers you get at your pitching rates, then cheers!

I hear you and you are right, there are more aspects to a good fermentation like a healthy krausen for instance. So far though my Schwarzbiers have turned out crisp and clean with only a two liter starter. Brewing a pilsner where there is no place to hide for off flavors may be a different story though.

 

[Brulosopher]

I assume you know there's a proper point to d-rest... so why don't you just take a hydrometer reading, and do it if fermentation has reached that point? It beats guessing.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But I'd prefer no d-rest versus doing it way too early. I haven't noticed a difference when I do a d-rest.

I'll be outta town... meh.

 

[Brulosopher]

3 day into fermentation and no sulfur smell, which I expected to be very strong. I've read this could be an indicator that an adequate amount of yeast was indeed pitched. Anyone have anything to offer on this?

 

[Yooper]

3 day into fermentation and no sulfur smell, which I expected to be very strong. I've read this could be an indicator that an adequate amount of yeast was indeed pitched. Anyone have anything to offer on this?

The only time I've got a strong sulfur smell was when I had stressed yeast, although it's possible that some strains are notorious for producing sulfur smells and I just haven't used those strains.

A "clean" smelling fermentation is probably a much better indicator of yeast health than sulfur, so I think you've got a good thing!

 

[SpeedYellow]

I'll be outta town... meh.

Sorry if it was unclear. Take a hyrometer reading Fri/Sat. If it's ready for a d-rest, do it. If not, then don't. Much better than simply doing a d-rest based on the calendar. My suspicion is that you'll nail it, or even be a little late, for a d-rest.

3 day into fermentation and no sulfur smell, which I expected to be very strong. I've read this could be an indicator that an adequate amount of yeast was indeed pitched. Anyone have anything to offer on this?

Like Yooper said, that's a good thing! But it doesn't tell you much. Even if you dramatically underpitched (which you did not!), you still may not get a sulphur smell. I've mixed up and screwed up my lager procedures but never noticed suphur smells.

More importantly, how vigorous is the fermentation? How does it look? Nice head of foam?

As an example, I also brewed a lager Friday. 10 hours after pitching (50F), just 2 bubbles per minute out of the one-piece bubbler airlock. Another 4 hours later = full on fermentation, like 50 big bubbles per minute. Here on day 3, it slowed to around 22 bubbles/min but many are double-bubbles. About 3/4" of foam on top. Smells good. Overall, proceeding very well. Probably done by 6-9 days. And yet I only pitched 40% of the yeast cells that mrmalty says I "needed". lol.

On the other hand, if you're never seeing above 10 bubbles/minute, you're going to have a slow fermentation. Far from optimal yes, but I still wouldn't worry.

 

[osagedr]

I don't necessarily think that this is the best advice. If you pitched the proper amount of yeast at fermentation temperature, and held your temperatures within the correct range, you don't necessarily need to do a D-rest. The two lagers I made last year (Bock and Vienna) both scored well in separate BJCP competitions and I didn't d-rest either of them. You're more likely to incur off-flavors by letting it ferment at warmer temperatures especially during active fermentation. The point of a D-rest is to help eliminate potential off-flavors; if you're fermenting it correctly (right # of yeast and right temperatures) then you don't need a D-Rest. Taste it to be sure though.

(1) better to do one unnecessarily than to have yet another thread about a d-bomb, or "why is my lager stuck at 1.020?"

(2) no off flavours will result from a d-rest at as high as 1.025; maybe even higher in my experience

(3) most new lager brewers don't know what diacetyl tastes like so it can be difficult for them to even detect it

You are absolutely correct in observing that a d-rest is not always necessary. How experienced lager brewers approach this and how novice lager brewers approach it will not and should not be the same. But in my experience, a d-rest can't hurt anything and can save a lot of heartache.

 

[g-star]

As an example, I also brewed a lager Friday. 10 hours after pitching (50F), just 2 bubbles per minute out of the one-piece bubbler airlock. Another 4 hours later = full on fermentation, like 50 big bubbles per minute. Here on day 3, it slowed to around 22 bubbles/min but many are double-bubbles. About 3/4" of foam on top. Smells good. Overall, proceeding very well. Probably done by 6-9 days. And yet I only pitched 33% of the yeast cells that mrmalty says I "needed". lol.

On the other hand, if you're never seeing above 10 bubbles/minute, you're going to have a slow fermentation. Far from optimal yes, but I still wouldn't worry.

So you're judging the health of fermentation by the rate of your "bubbler". It all makes sense now.

 

[Brulosopher]

So you're judging the health of fermentation by the rate of your "bubbler". It all makes sense now.

Whew! I'm glad you mentioned this, as I'm getting about 30 bubbles per minute. Thankfully I've never judged my beers by the rate of bubbling... still hopeful it turns out great, despite my measly bubble rate and mere 4.5 liter starter

 

[SpeedYellow]

So you're judging the health of fermentation by the rate of your "bubbler". It all makes sense now.

Just like you and every homebrewer, I use the bubbler to help understand the rate of fermentation. And as we all know, it's one factor in yeast health. E.g. zero fermentation = unhappy yeast. You're even denying that? Wow, you do need to read more.

I could ask a 3rd time for the objective metrics on how to judge a "healthy" fermentation, but it's pretty clear that nobody knows. I guess slavish obedience to a yeast calculator is simpler.

 

[Brulosopher]

Just like you and every homebrewer, I use the bubbler to help understand the rate of fermentation. And as we all know, it's one factor in yeast health. E.g. zero fermentation = unhappy yeast. You're even denying that? Wow, you do need to read more.

I could ask a 3rd time for the objective metrics on how to judge a "healthy" fermentation, but it's pretty clear that nobody knows. I guess slavish obedience to a yeast calculator is simpler.

The most objective metric I've discovered, even more effective than the bubbler-check, is to dip my head into my fermentation freezer, getting my face as close to the fermenter as possible, then vigorously inhaling through my nose. If I feel like death has gripped me by the throat and my eyes start running like a river, I pretty much assume beer is being made :cross:

 

[g-star]

Just like you and every homebrewer, I use the bubbler to help understand the rate of fermentation. And as we all know, it's one factor in yeast health. E.g. zero fermentation = unhappy yeast. You're even denying that? Wow, you do need to read more.

What I'm saying is that under-pitching, then judging fermentation a success by the rate of bubbling is a naive approach. But you don't seemed to be swayed by well-established facts, so I'm done trying to educate you.

Best of luck with your beers.

 

[SpeedYellow]

What I'm saying is that under-pitching, then judging fermentation a success by the rate of bubbling is a naive approach. But you don't seemed to be swayed by well-established facts, so I'm done trying to educate you.

Best of luck with your beers.

Who's judging success of fermentation solely by the rate of bubbling? As I said, airlocks help you understand factors that even Jamil describes as important in his book:
(1) Length of the lag phase and activity during it,
(2) How vigorous is fermentation in the growth stage,
(3) Total duration of fermentation.

Again, this info is combined with other info like healthy kreuzen, smell, etc.

So please educate us: what else should we be looking at? Clearly you have no answer except to misquote, naysay, and point to mrmalty. Apparently you're saying that we can have two different fermentations that look and seem completely identical, yet the one that uses half as much yeast will be garbage. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[osagedr]

Professional pitching rates are probably the best guidelines--what rates do breweries target?

What rates to the homebrewers who win the most awards for their beers use? Not as reliable as professional rates but indicative of success.

 

[gotajiboo]

I usually make a 4L starter for a 5 gallon batch. There are two schools of thought on lager starter fermentation temps. One is to ferment at room temp. This will allow for faster growth, so 2 days prior to brew day is feasible. The other is to ferment at cold (the same temp as the temp you will be doing your 5 gallon batch). This will require a much longer fermentation since they work slower in the cold. I personally like the latter but it's up to you.

 

[osagedr]

I usually make a 4L starter for a 5 gallon batch. There are two schools of thought on lager starter fermentation temps. One is to ferment at room temp. This will allow for faster growth, so 2 days prior to brew day is feasible. The other is to ferment at cold (the same temp as the temp you will be doing your 5 gallon batch). This will require a much longer fermentation since they work slower in the cold. I personally like the latter but it's up to you.

I used to ferment lager starters at the same temperature as the main batch. Then I learned the folks at Wyeast don't propogate yeast that way--so why should I?

 

[Darwin18]

Yep the point of a starter is to increase your yeast cell count. Off-flavors in your starter shouldn't be a concern unless you plan on drinking it.

 

[Brulosopher]

I decided to gradually ease into a d-rest starting last night by turning my thermostat up to 55F... Within a couple hours my airlock was bubbling with a bit more vigor. I plan on letting it warm to about 60F today, where it will stay until tomorrow evening when I'll crash it to 34F and let it lager in primary while I'm on the east coast. As soon as I'm back (8/6), I'll rack to keg, put has on it, and let it continue to lager for another 2-3 weeks. Eh??

 

[Yooper]

I decided to gradually ease into a d-rest starting last night by turning my thermostat up to 55F... Within a couple hours my airlock was bubbling with a bit more vigor. I plan on letting it warm to about 60F today, where it will stay until tomorrow evening when I'll crash it to 34F and let it lager in primary while I'm on the east coast. As soon as I'm back (8/6), I'll rack to keg, put has on it, and let it continue to lager for another 2-3 weeks. Eh??

Sounds good, except check the SG and taste for diacetyl before crashing.

Actually, I always rack right after the diacetyl rest, because if the beer is done it's ready for lagering. But if you don't have time to rack it to the keg tomorrow night, then I guess the way you're planning will work.

 

[Brulosopher]

Sounds good, except check the SG and taste for diacetyl before crashing.

Actually, I always rack right after the diacetyl rest, because if the beer is done it's ready for lagering. But if you don't have time to rack it to the keg tomorrow night, then I guess the way you're planning will work.

Thanks Yooper. When it comes to lager brewing, everyone seems to have their own method, which makes it confusing for a dude who's never brewed one before. I could probably squeeze in the time to keg the beer, but my thought was to let it sit on the yeast cake another week just for whatever minimal amount of "clean up" might occur... even though it'll be near freezing. I've heard from a few trusted sources that their lagers are usually bright and ready to drink within 4-5 weeks (when kegging)... what are your thoughts on this?

 

[SpeedYellow]

+1 on Yooper's method of racking after d-rest. Not sure why bother slowly increasing temp to 65F for the d-rest. And I follow the advice from Miller's book to reduce the temp by about 3F per day after the d-rest until you get to lagering temp.

In the big picture, none of this stuff is critical so it's no biggie.

 

[Brulosopher]

Well, I checked it just before heading out for work this morning and it's fermenting more vigorously than it has since pitching yeast last Saturday- it's at 53F. Should I start raising the temperature tonight for a d-rest, or would it be best to let it ferment out while I'm gone and raise the temp when I get home next Monday? Meh...