StarSan ruined my beers

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Tonypr24

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Guys
So I finally Kegged my Pale Ale and my Stout I made about a month ago. I had no issues with the fermentation as I kept them in a control temp room at 68 degree. I do remember when I cleaned both my secondary fermenters for both beers seeing a lot of foam on top of the beer the same was when I kegged both beers, there was foam all over the inside and on top of the beers in the kegs. Now a day later the beer is not carbonated yet but I wanted to have a glass of my Pale ale but it tasted like soap and I see very little foam when I pour out of my keg on top of my glass. I tried my stout and same soap taste on it. I thought it was the StarSan so I started to do some research online and a some people are complaining about the same thing but almost everyone replying to their post are saying no that is not the starsan...so I decited to pour another glass of both my Pale Ale and Stout and I put 2 fingers in the beer and started to shake the glass. Guess what? I got a glass full of foam out of it....The beer is not carbonated yet so its not carbonation foam..it was just like when you mix starsan in a glass of water. So why did this happened and what can I do to fix it? I Plan to filter the beers to see if that will help.
 
Well, Starsan doesn't really have a flavor, and the flavor it does have is not soap. However, "fatty acids in the trub start to break down and soap is essentially created."

http://morebeer.com/themes/morewinepro/mmpdfs/mb/off_flavor.pdf

Not to mention that if you cleaned your fermenters with soap, and didn't clean properly...that could be the issue as well.

Point being, Starsan doesn't cause soapy flavors...so it's something else in your process.
 
John
Thanks for the link. I read the part about soapy taste but I didn't leave the beer fermenting in the primary too long. It was only there for 2 weeks, plus how do I get soapy foam out of it when I shake the glass of beer. It really looks like soap. I will try to take a picture of the glass and post it, you guys can tell me what you think.
 
So you used Starsan to sanitize. What did you use to clean prior to that? Is it possible that there's some residue left from that?

I share your suspicion about the Starsan foam, but 99% of the posts on here say "don't fear the foam." Regardless, I'm always doing what ever I can to drain it or shake it out of whatever it is I'm sanitizing.

Interesting post - thanks for putting it out there.

Cheers :mug:
 
You might want to pick up a copy of "Brew Like a Pro", David Miller, Storey Publishing c 2012. My guess is you let it go too long. Miller suggests cold crashing at somewhere around 8 days and bottling/kegging within a few days of that.

Star San is a good product and pretty close to an industry standard sanitizer (if there is such a thing). While some will suggest rinsing the vessel following sanitizing, there are just too many brewers who have used StarSan without anything like the issue you are describing to provide a basis for blaming it for the problem.
 
Well, the beer does have some carbonation, so shaking it will cause it to foam a bit. If you do have some soap residue left over from your cleaning, that will also cause it to foam.

There are other causes of soapy flavor in homebrew. For instance, some people perceive certain hops as soapy. Soap can also be a byproduct of a hot fermentation...
 
I really don't know what it is, I have never seen anything like this and I have used StarSan in the past with no issue but I have to say that I have always rinsed with hot water after using StarSan, this is the only time I didn't. I was trying to save time in my brewing process and I thought that rinsing with hot water was a waste of time and an extra step I didn't have to do but maybe I was wrong.

I honestly I don't know what it is but StarSan was the last thing I used. I did used PBW to clean everything before I used StarSan but I rinsed the crap out of it.
 
Tonypr24 said:
I really don't know what it is, I have never seen anything like this and I have used StarSan in the past with no issue but I have to say that I have always rinsed with hot water after using StarSan, this is the only time I didn't. I was trying to save time in my brewing process and I thought that rinsing with hot water was a waste of time and an extra step I didn't have to do but maybe I was wrong.

I honestly I don't know what it is but StarSan was the last thing I used. I did used PBW to clean everything before I used StarSan but I rinsed the crap out of it.
Click to expand...

I suspect you are trying to spank Johnny when it was Billy that broke the vase.
 
Tonypr24 said:
I really don't know what it is, I have never seen anything like this and I have used StarSan in the past with no issue but I have to say that I have always rinsed with hot water after using StarSan, this is the only time I didn't. I was trying to save time in my brewing process and I thought that rinsing with hot water was a waste of time and an extra step I didn't have to do but maybe I was wrong.

I honestly I don't know what it is but StarSan was the last thing I used. I did used PBW to clean everything before I used StarSan but I rinsed the crap out of it.
Click to expand...

Correlation does not equal causation. I'm not sure that we can convince you that Starsan doesn't cause soapy flavors, but my personal experience is that it does not. I have never rinsed Starsan out, and have never had soapy flavors.

It has to be something else, and a connection has to be there if it's in two separate brews.
 
Last spring I had a run of 6 batches of beer that turned out lousy. I actually had to dump them because they were just undrinkable. I was ready to blame almost anything. The lhbs operator convinced me I had gotten an infection. I made huge changes in cleaning, sanitizing, threw out a couple perfectly good plastic carboys (fearing bacteria-hiding scratches), etc. None of those things fixed the problem.

After a lot of reading on water issues (prompted by some good advice from members of this forum) I ended up calling my local utility company. I spoke to one of their hydrologists and learned that during the problem period there had been chloromines in the city water supply. Chloromine doesn't boil out like chlorine and it absolutely destroys beer. I changed my water source and my beer became excellent again. Slam dunk!

Moral to the story? If you have a problem with your beer look at everything that goes into it and everything you do when you brew. If everyone else in the brewing community says something is OK then, unless you are a chemist and can bring some scientific data to the argument, leave that alone and keep looking. As long as you continue to focus on the wrong thing you will never find the real issue.
 
Well I can tell you starsan does not taste like soap. I took a large mouthful out of the wrong glass once. It'll wake you up, but even the aftertaste isn't what I'd call soapy.

There is nothing special about CO2 that causes foam that shaking wouldn't also cause. If you shake milk it will also look like starsan foam.

I have found the product will form a stable "dry" foam on top of a wet foam, so I drain most things upside down, or do a final dump before filling.
 
I have been using Star San for years and never rinse. I brew and drink only lagers, always very clean, no off flavors, never had a soapy flavor.
 
Here's what Palmer says about soapy flavors in beer:

Soapy
Soapy flavors can caused by not washing your glass very well, but they can also be produced by the fermentation conditions. If you leave the beer in the primary fermentor for a relatively long period of time after primary fermentation is over ("long" depends on the style and other fermentation factors), soapy flavors can result from the breakdown of fatty acids in the trub. Soap is, by definition, the salt of a fatty acid; so you are literally tasting soap.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Again, I suspect you left the beer in primary for too long and perhaps too warm.
 
On the day I brew my beer it:

Gets a 25 foot copper chiller dripping with StarSan dunked into it.

Then a thermometer again dripping with StarSan gets repeatedly inserted.

Once it is cooled a hydrometer dripping with StarSan gets plunked into it.

The cooled wort is then poured into a 7 gallon fermenter whose walls are dripping with and coated with StarSan foam.

Yeast is then pitched and stirred in with a large spoon that drips with StarSan.

A still wet with StarSan lid is put on, sometimes with an airlock also wet with StarSan.

During fermentation my StarSan wet hydrometer is used several times.

Beer gets siphoned (siphon is sanitized with and still wet with StarSan) into a bottling bucket that still has StarSan foam clinging to the entire interior surface.

After priming sugar is added the beer goes down through a StarSan sanitized bottling wand into bottles that have StarSan foam clinging to the interior.

These bottles are then capped with caps that wait in a small bowl of StarSan next to my capper.

I haven't had the soapy taste in any of my beers... Might not be the StarSan
:confused:
OMO

bosco
 
It makes no sense to rinse out a no-rinse sanitizer, you may as well just skip the sanitizer as the rinse agent could put back the nasties that Star San would get rid of.

The "don't fear the foam" saying didn't come out of nowhere - it came from a lot of experienced users. When I use an IC, it's dripping with Star San when it goes in the BK; when I fill my carboys, they're wet with Star San. I could probably rattle of a bunch of things that are wet with Star San when coming in contact with my wort or finished beer (but no need as boscobeans already covered them) and I've never had a batch acquire a soapy character - or come down with a bug...

Cheers!
 
my experience with starsan (approx 60 batches) is exactly as bosco describes...

I think puddlethumper is right, check out your water.

If a call to your municipality isn't informational enough, google "Ward Laboratories", they seem to be the go-to lab if you want to get your water tested for the whole works. I think it was $20 when I did it last, and they mail you the vials and a pre-paid envelope to send your sample back in, very easy and quick results!
 
jotakah said:
If a call to your municipality isn't informational enough, google "Ward Laboratories", they seem to be the go-to lab if you want to get your water tested for the whole works. I think it was $20 when I did it last, and they mail you the vials and a pre-paid envelope to send your sample back in, very easy and quick results!
Click to expand...

A water report would certainly help him brew better beer. But I really don't think he is describing a water issue. If it was water it would show up as salty, heavy, dull, nasty, or some other descriptive. My problem was like that and it definitely was water related. His issue is soapy flavors and Palmer addresses it squarely... he left it in primary too long and probably too warm.
 
The foam is likely not from soap. You can take urine and shake it up, and you get foam: no soap involved. It's the proteins!
 
It's not from starsan. I had suck back when cold crashing a graff with the blow off tube in a bottleofstarsan solution. A lot got sucked in.

It is acid. It is tart and sour tasting. My graff didn't taste anything like soap.

You probably didn't rinse well after cleaning with soap or oxyclean. If starsan added a soapy flavor, no one would use it.

Also, when I oxygenate my wort with no co2, it foams like hell. Co2 is in the beer at a low volume after fermentation is done, so don't try to justify your hunch with botched science.

Rise, rinse again, and rinse once more. Then when you think it's good, rinse it again.
 
Puddlethumper said:
A water report would certainly help him brew better beer. But I really don't think he is describing a water issue. If it was water it would show up as salty, heavy, dull, nasty, or some other descriptive. My problem was like that and it definitely was water related. His issue is soapy flavors and Palmer addresses it squarely... he left it in primary too long and probably too warm.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt this. He only left it in the fermenter 2 weeks. I've left mine for over 2 months at room temp without the soapy flavor and another guy I converse with left his beer in the fermenter for 8 months without off flavors.
 
OP I can't say what caused the soapy taste but I'm another person that is gonna say it wasn't the Starsan. I do exactly what bosco beans does and have never experienced what you are describing.
 
Well,for one thing you got foam in that glass stirred with two fingers from dissoolved protiens,not from carbonation in any amount. It drives the foam in the glass from said protiens. A 68 degree room is no guarentee that your fermenter will stay at that temp. Far from it,it'll be at least 3-5 degrees higher on average. And kegs have a lot of tight corners that're hard to get to to clean. I've had up to 3 or 4 handfulls of Starsan foam in my bottling bucket with no soap flavor. I do wish,though,that those who write those off flavor descriptions be a lot more precise with exactly WHAT fatty acids are breaking down into salts or "soap" in relation to beer brewing.
 
insanim8er said:
It is acid. It is tart and sour tasting. My graff didn't taste anything like soap.

You probably didn't rinse well after cleaning with soap or oxyclean. If starsan added a soapy flavor, no one would use it.
Click to expand...

This. Star San is NOT a soap or soap-like product. It tastes nothing like soap. It is an acid-based sanitizer. The soapy flavors are certainly coming from elsewhere.
 
Tonypr24 said:
John
Thanks for the link. I read the part about soapy taste but I didn't leave the beer fermenting in the primary too long. It was only there for 2 weeks, plus how do I get soapy foam out of it when I shake the glass of beer. It really looks like soap. I will try to take a picture of the glass and post it, you guys can tell me what you think.
Click to expand...

I'd take a few small drops of Starsan in a glass of water, and drink it. Does it taste like soap? If not (it shouldn't), the taste came from something else...either an off flavor from your fermentation/yeast, or you need to rinse out your glasses better and you should check out your dishwasher. Some people use way too much soap in their dishwashers. I find crusty bits in my glasses sometimes and rinse them.
 
Star San is an Acid with a small amount of agent to create foam. I personally don't like it and switched to their other darker brand that doesn't foam. I know if freaks people out, but it doesn't affect your beer. In fact, it will add a slight amount of acidity, but not detectable.

A soapy flavor is an off flavor caused from the brewing process. You need to aerate your wort well to avoid autolysis, which can lead to excessive esters and soapy flavors. I know the most common way is to shake the carboy, but it typically only gives you 8 +/- parts per million (PPM). Using an air pump and aeration stone along with an air filter will get you the closest to 12 PPM, which is the most ideal. Using O2 gets you there fast, but be careful, the PPM can go way above 12 PPM.

There was an article about using a drop of olive oil to aerate your wort, which my club tested, and appears to work. However, it appears to diminish beer head about 25% +/-.


There you go, that's your answer to soapy beer.


Cheers,
 
Puddlethumper said:
You might want to pick up a copy of "Brew Like a Pro", David Miller, Storey Publishing c 2012. My guess is you let it go too long. Miller suggests cold crashing at somewhere around 8 days and bottling/kegging within a few days of that.
Click to expand...

This is not the OP's problem. Almost all ales Gould probably sit 2-3 weeks at the homebrew level. That time after active fermentation gives the yeast time to clean up byproducts of fermentation. Wheat beers would be an exception but most other styles benefit from that extra time.

You have to remember the source of the info you are quoting. The fermentation schedule if the pro brewer is faster because they can ferment warmer due to the pressure on the yeast caused by large conical fermenters that inhibit production of off flavors.

Fermentation temp might be the problem. As Puddlethumper pointed out, water issues are a concern too.

For the OP, did you do a starter? Were you using washed yeast? Old yeast? Liquid/dry?
 
I just tried another beer I have been fermenting for 7 days and I have a similar taste on that one. At this point I'm thinking it's my water. I have never had any issues with it before but I was told the town water sometimes changes depending on the weather and conditions. I think I found the problem. I will be brewing this weekend and this time I will buy water and hopefully it will turn out better.

Thanks guys for all your help
 
RM-MN said:
I seriously doubt this. He only left it in the fermenter 2 weeks. I've left mine for over 2 months at room temp without the soapy flavor and another guy I converse with left his beer in the fermenter for 8 months without off flavors.
Click to expand...


Yes, I do primary-only ferments on 99% of my beers (except for say, a Russian Imperial Stout or something else uncommon and strong). Four to five weeks is about the earliest that I ever rack off into a keg, never had problems with soapy flavors. If anything, I believe it tastes better that way because it gives the yeasties time to "clean up" after themselves
 
The OP never really talked about how he controls fermentation temps. As others have said, not the starsan, but I agree water and more likely fermentation temp related off-flavors. I had what I would describe as a "soapy" flavor to some of my first beers. Once I spent time ensuring I got the wort all the way down in temp for fermentation and then controlled the fermentation temp I got rid of the off flavor.

While I would not discount the possibility that it could be water, because it could be, I never changed my water source from the time I had issues to after. This leads me to think it is fermentation temp control. If you don't have a fermentation chamber, look at swamp coolers with ice bottles. You'd think this time of year that would not be an issue, but if you don't have a spot with an ambient temp around 62 degrees, you are probably fermenting at less than optimal temps.
 
Tonypr24 said:
Guys
So I finally Kegged my Pale Ale and my Stout I made about a month ago. I had no issues with the fermentation as I kept them in a control temp room at 68 degree. I do remember when I cleaned both my secondary fermenters for both beers seeing a lot of foam on top of the beer the same was when I kegged both beers, there was foam all over the inside and on top of the beers in the kegs. Now a day later the beer is not carbonated yet but I wanted to have a glass of my Pale ale but it tasted like soap and I see very little foam when I pour out of my keg on top of my glass. I tried my stout and same soap taste on it. I thought it was the StarSan so I started to do some research online and a some people are complaining about the same thing but almost everyone replying to their post are saying no that is not the starsan...so I decited to pour another glass of both my Pale Ale and Stout and I put 2 fingers in the beer and started to shake the glass. Guess what? I got a glass full of foam out of it....The beer is not carbonated yet so its not carbonation foam..it was just like when you mix starsan in a glass of water. So why did this happened and what can I do to fix it? I Plan to filter the beers to see if that will help.
Click to expand...

I would suspect a cleaning issue (agent) used in the secondary and kegs before beer ever entered them. How do you clean your vessels after use? You could also have glassware with residue but since you are seeing foaming in your keg and secondary, I suspect the problem is with how those vessels were initially cleaned (not sanitation, but cleaning).
 
There are two obvious variables in the OP's situation:

1. Fermentation temperature - too high and too long will lead to "soapy" flavors as Palmer states.
2. Water issues. Municipal water can and often does change from time to time (as happened in my case). The OP seems to have recently discovered it has happened in his case as well.

So the suggested course of action would be just what he has decided to do: Get his water from a reliably safe source. And as we all seem to agree, watch those fermentation temperatures.
 
Try RO water or spring water,putting a couple gallons in the fridge a day or two before brew day to get really cold. Chill the wort down to 75F or so. Strain into fermenter & top off to recipe volume with the fridged water. It should get down to 65F or so for a 5 gallon batch. works every time for me. Then at least keep the fermenter in a cold room where the initial ferment temps will stay between,say,64-69F. Works well for me,& my pb/pm biab beers are getting pretty good. Even the WL029 kolsh yeast gives a beer with a bit of a crisp finish at the temps I mentioned.
And I wish brewing authors/authorities would be more precise with what these "fatty acids" are that cause us to produce "salts of fatty acids" or soap in our beers under adverse conditions. They're all pretty fague on the subject.
 
Starsan tastes more like hydrogen peroxide than soap and it will not ruin beer if a small amount gets into your beer. I use it daily in a production environment and have never...let me repeat NEVER had a soapy taste unless there was an issue somewhere else in the chain.

I would start looking at ferm temp issues
 
you could always taste star san you know. i wouldn't drink a mouthful straight or anything, but it won't hurt you. mix up a small normal batch and dip your finger in it and taste it.
 

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