Stainless Steel Question

[sremed60]

Is there a difference between stainless steel and IFS certified food grade stainless steel?

I found a company that sells stainless steel fittings locally. When I was talking to the guy he said "None of our fittings are sanitary." That kind of puzzled me because I assumed stainless steel was stainless steel. I said "My understanding is that as long as it's stainless steel it's okay to use in brewing beer!?" I was stating what my understanding was but also kind of posing it as a question. He missed my subtle inquiry and simply responded, "Well then we're good, as long as you realize our products are not IFS certified."

That got me thinking. I've seen "sanitary" referred to when talking about welding, and I can understand the need for a sanitary weld. But I wasn't aware that the steel itself has to be "sanitary."

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Is there a difference between stainless steel and IFS certified food grade stainless steel?

I found a company that sells stainless steel fittings locally. When I was talking to the guy he said "None of our fittings are sanitary." That kind of puzzled me because I assumed stainless steel was stainless steel. I said "My understanding is that as long as it's stainless steel it's okay to use in brewing beer!?" I was stating what my understanding was but also kind of posing it as a question. He missed my subtle inquiry and simply responded, "Well then we're good, as long as you realize our products are not IFS certified."

That got me thinking. I've seen "sanitary" referred to when talking about welding, and I can understand the need for a sanitary weld. But I wasn't aware that the steel itself has to be "sanitary."

He probably said "NSF":

"Based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, NSF International is a global independent public health and environmental organization that provides standards development, product certification, testing, auditing, education and risk management services for public health and the environment.[1]"

Many thing used in "food grade" environments from restaurant kitchens to commercial breweries require and NSF stamp. The exact same item made on the exact same production line may have the stamp or may not (dairy verses bio-diesel).

Much like the 55 amp Delco alternator used on light aircraft that is in every way identical to the one in 1960's GM sedan, the stamp comes at a price.

The steel itself is not sanitary...or stamped...the final product is. As you are not producing a commercial product for human consumption, this stamp means nothing. The quality of the fittings and their base metal do.

 

[Sconnie12]

'NSF Certified' means a company sent some items in, spent 10's of thousands of dollars and got a nice NSF stamp.

304 stainless steel is 304 stainless steel.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Not necessarily to the above responses... There actually IS a difference between 304/316ss and Sanitary food grade 304/316-- the difference is the finish. For home brewing, regular 304/316 fittings are perfectly fine. But for a large brewery, dairy, food processing, lab work, etc. they will use the Sanitary as the finish is super smooth and polished, making it truly sanitary and able to all be cleaned (in place often times) much more thoroughly and easily.

Regular SS is not polished/finished and therefore does have some surface "coarseness".

This is the main difference-- how it is finished/polished.

 

[augiedoggy]

Could it also mean that there could be contaminants or some other filler in the metal that could prevent it from passing such standards? Could it be inferior and unsafe but still be that specific grade of stainless?
I ask this because of a couple links I referenced to a seller whom ive used many times on ebay who sells 316 stainless camlocks for a very low price and someone suggested steering clear of them because at such a price he was inclined to think they were not really 316 stainless dispite there stamping and advertising.
I noticed they are advertised as trash pump adapters ...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-A-Trash...001289?hash=item4188620c49:g:AxsAAOSwF1dUMmEF

I bought many of these from bargain fittings and duda diesel and though some are not the same some of these parts appear to be from the same suppliers as they sell..

 

[iijakii]

Disagree to your disagreement on the polishing. That's not a requirement to be NSF or some other food grade ratings. I've sold plenty of unpolished 316SS pumps. I think that's more of a welding and other pipefitting terminology etc.

Edit: I want to take back some of what I said, seems some different industries do have separate standards on polishing requirements.

 

[iijakii]

Could it also mean that there could be contaminants or some other filler in the metal that could prevent it from passing such standards? Could it be inferior and unsafe but still be that specific grade of stainless?

It means they haven't spent the money to have the certification process and testing of their materials to make sure the material composition is true and to standards.

 

[iijakii]

NSF/ANSI standard 61 is the standard that establishes minimum health effects requirements for materials, components, products, or systems that contact drinking water, drinking water treatment chemicals, or both.

• NSF/ANSI Standard 61 includes criteria for testing and evaluating products to ensure they do not leach contaminants into the water that would be a health concern. These contaminants include those regulated by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) and Health Canada, as well as any other non-regulated compounds that may be of concern

 

[augiedoggy]

It means they haven't spent the money to have the certification process and testing of their materials to make sure the material composition is true and to standards.

I understand that but that also means it may or may not MEET those standards too right? Or is this highly unlikely and more of a cost savings politics thing?

 

[iijakii]

I understand that but that also means it may or may not MEET those standards too right? Or is this highly unlikely and more of a cost savings politics thing?

I suppose that's possible, yes. I don't have much experience on different pouring costs though. In regards to your eBay parts I suppose you could see some shady companies skimping on the chromium and nickel percentages or something? Talking out of my ass though.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I understand that but that also means it may or may not MEET those standards too right? Or is this highly unlikely and more of a cost savings politics thing?

I will go out on limb and say if the are cast, drawn or drawn and machined or stamped...just not welded, probably fine for home brewing. Just make sure the SS spec is one that is safe for contact with acidic foods.

 

[augiedoggy]

I will go out on limb and say if the are cast, drawn or drawn and machined or stamped...just not welded, probably fine for home brewing. Just make sure the SS spec is one that is safe for contact with acidic foods.

what grade wouldnt be safe for acidic foods? I mean most kitchen kettles and pots and pans are 201 stainless and people use aluminum for acidic foods and beer which it dissolves over time in ? Copper is a toxic metal and it dissolves in acidic food too yet its widely used here? im worried about metals like lead or mercury myself although i would hope im just being paranoid here.. even the stuff bargain fittings and duda sells doesnt appear to be stamped for food use..
Its my understanding the 304 stainless is only used in beer brewing for its resistance to the industrial caustic brewery cleaners they use but arent available for home brewing use? I believe 304 is more of a marketing gimmick for home brewer use but could be wrong? Maybe someone has proof otherwise? I know 316 is more resistant to rust and safe for my salt water tank

 

[augiedoggy]

I suppose that's possible, yes. I don't have much experience on different pouring costs though. In regards to your eBay parts I suppose you could see some shady companies skimping on the chromium and nickel percentages or something? Talking out of my ass though.

yeah that was my thoughs too but that would still make it a safe grade just not 316 as advertised and sold as... still after 3 years you would think someone would have had an issue if if wasnt legit..

The fittings I have from them havent rusted and appear identical in magnetic properties and color to my "other" 316 stainless fittings.. I had 2 male camlocks I had to grind down extra material off because the female ones wouldnt lock down on them but this was out of like 8 different sets and the rest have been fine..

 

[Onkel_Udo]

what grade wouldnt be safe for acidic foods? I mean most kitchen kettles and pots and pans are 201 stainless and people use aluminum for acidic foods and beer which it dissolves over time in ? Copper is a toxic metal and it dissolves in acidic food too yet its widely used here?
Its my understanding the 304 stainless is only used in beer brewing for its resistance to the industrial caustic brewery cleaners they use but arent available for home brewing use?

102, 201 (worked...not virgin) and 4-series have all had their issues. If I remember 18/10 can have its issues too. Odds of finding any of these but 410 in fittings (still never seen it) almost 0 but with the global market what it is, they could pop up.

304 is available about everywhere but in the quantities we buy, 316 is about the same price.

 

[augiedoggy]

102, 201 (worked...not virgin) and 4-series have all had their issues. If I remember 18/10 can have its issues too. Odds of finding any of these but 410 in fittings (still never seen it) almost 0 but with the global market what it is, they could pop up.

304 is available about everywhere but in the quantities we buy, 316 is about the same price.

theoretically 316 is better for this application if anything right?

410 is usually used for hardened edges like knives and such I though. (and much more prone to rust with more ferrous metal)

 

[Onkel_Udo]

theoretically 316 is better for this application if anything right?

410 is usually used for hardened edges like knives and such I though. (and much more prone to rust with more ferrous metal)

Either 304 o 316 are fully adequate. Your welder might like you better if you used 304...but only if the whole "system" is 304. It really is no big deal either way.

 

[sremed60]

Based on the replies I'm not going to worry about it. Sounds like the stamp is yet another shining example of bureaucrats sitting around trying to figure out ways to separate citizens from their money.

I was excited to find a company near by where I can go in and actually look at the parts before I buy them. If and when the government decides they need to inspect my home brewing equipment for stamps, I'll deny owning it at that time. Until then...

CHEERS!

 

[okiedog]

Here is a simple specification chart for stainless steel. As you can see, 304 and 316 are very close, and are both used in food grade applications. When machining is required, 316 is often preferred. The main difference is that 316 has about 2% less Chromium, but has 2-3% Molybdenum, which 304 does not have. 304L has less iron, so it is easier to machine than 304.

http://engineersedge.com/stainless_steel.htm

 

[cantrell00]

201 has less nickel & chrome than 304 & is often sold as an alternative in restaurant & food process applications.

400 series stainless is very magnetic & has a much higher % of chrome & no nickel.

All are stain resistant. 400 series can eventually rust. 201, 304 & 316 will not.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

201 has less nickel & chrome than 304 & is often sold as an alternative in restaurant & food process applications.

400 series stainless is very magnetic & has a much higher % of chrome & no nickel.

All are stain resistant. 400 series can eventually rust. 201, 304 & 316 will not.

I believe "worked" (for hardening) 201 was the only one that has come into question. I am not as clear on that by my understanding is that the surface metal properties are much less corrosion resistant than the rest of the thickness of the metal. Like I said, never really fully understood it completely so take this with a gain of salt.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Again, the properties of 304/316ss fittings make them food safe for our use in homebrewing. However, that does not make them Sanitary Food Safe. Below is some reading on sanitary piping and tubing-- again there is a difference. For most homebrewers, 304/316 is what we care about (and to the above discussion, there is some valid concern to SS fittings coming from China not being as advertised). But again, when you get in to full size breweries, dairies, etc. (and some homebrewers too) they are dealing in Sanitary 304/316!

Sanitary Tubing and Piping- Finishes and Specifications

 

[Sconnie12]

Why does every topic on HBT get beaten to death by people that do a Google search and paste a link :facepalm:

200, 300 and 400 series stainless steels can ALL be NSF rated for food use. It has nothing to do with surface finish. Some codes might call for a Ra rating but I haven't seen it. Most fittings are 3A rated and according to the link above that isn't 'sanitary'. The surface finish isn't the issue. It's voids or crack is welds.

99% of the time any cast material coming from China will be fine. It's the sheet you need to be concerned about.

To answer your question you will be totally fine. 304 (18/8) is the chemical composition of the material. Just because someone stamps it doesn't mean it's safer. /end thread

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Why does every topic on HBT get beaten to death by people that do a Google search and paste a link :facepalm:

To answer your question you will be totally fine. 304 (18/8) is the chemical composition of the material. Just because someone stamps it doesn't mean it's safer. /end thread

Impressive level of arrogance. I see that you are the final authority and therefore bow to your unending wisdom.

Admins, please remove all responses to the original question but this one.

OP his answer to your question, also given by others, is accurate except he left out welded items as an area of potential concern when purchasing from unknown suppliers off ebay.

 

[cantrell00]

Hahahahahahahaha

 

[TheMadKing]

Impressive level of arrogance. I see that you are the final authority and therefore bow to your unending wisdom.

Admins, please remove all responses to the original question but this one.

OP his answer to your question, also given by others, is accurate except he left out welded items as an area of potential concern when purchasing from unknown suppliers off ebay.

He's right, 304 stainless is 304 stainless. Food grade probably refers to the polish level or the passivation level, but both can be modified at home. Unless it's the welds.. It's probably the welds

Now bow to your sensei


BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!